Topic: What do I have to do to sell this...?

[Corbomite]

No I haven't had time to peruse the Matrix just yet, but I will. I'm still trying to get a team together.

IMO the CMP(Z) line is superior and should designated the Command Variant for the ISC CL's unless you want to lay it on the Carriers in the hull class, but they already have rules and it doesn't fix the problem. While the Strike Cruisers cost a bit more the Medium Cruisers have better firing arcs (FH vs FA on the Plasma vs the PPD), more crunch power (2x Plasma G vs 1x PPD), a more versatile weapon in the Plasmas (Enveloping, Pseudo, Fast Loading F's, firing within range 4) and the Designation "Medium" signifying that it is a bit "bigger" than a normal CL. It is between a Light and Heavy Cruiser by definition.

[KHH Jakle]

Gotcha

No I haven't had time to peruse the Matrix just yet, but I will. I'm still trying to get a team together.

Cool!

[KHH Jakle]

Just to make things official:  I just made the notice on our forums that our next cycle will be using PBR as the 'CnC' for all matches.

Hope to get all you interested parties on board

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

If anyone needs an extra Fed or Hydran pilot, let me know.

I will give this a whirl.

[Corbomite]

I would still advocate only one ship with PPD's if I-Torps are in play. Maybe you could give them a choice based on the number of ships with I-Torps chosen. At the risk of over complicating matters how about something like this:

(This part would obviously only pertain to 3v3's and the PPD rule would still apply)

If three ships are flown the ISC team may have one of these options -

1) Three ships, all with no PPD may all have I-Torps

2) Three ships, one with PPD may have two with I-Torps

3) Three ships, two with PPD may have one with I-Torps.


I took a look at the Matrix and noted a few anomalies that I will post when I get more time.

[Julin Eurthyr]

I wouldn't worry too much about PPD / Z-refit ISC fleets.  Don't forget the ISC's naturally high BPVs counter-act the situation a lot...

Considering that a I-CSZ = D7L or D5L range BPV, the I-CAZ = C7 range, and I-CCZ = DN, I don't see a lot of high PPD / Pl-I ISC fleets flying, unless the enemy's getting a lot of 2xCLC & BCH or 2xBCH & 1 DN fleets, the ISC probably can't afford them.  The most I'd probably see is a CCZ, CSZ and CLZ as a typical BCH / CLC / CW ISC force...

However, in mid-era fights with just the P or Y refits, then it might be feasable to fly an all-PPD fleet, which could get annoying fast.  So, I'd recommend going with a variant of the SFB-rules on PPDs.

The original rule calls for the PPDs on the flagship (up to 4 for a DN / BB), and one more PPD for every 3 ships in addition to the command ship.  Therefore, per SFB, to get a second PPD ship you need a 4 ship squadron...

I'd recommend a limit of 4 PPDs, total, in any SFC fleet.  Excemptions may be necessary if the fleet construction rules (say a Mid-era DN & 2 CA battle, if the DNT's not out or can't be afforded, the I-DN gets 4 PPDs and the CAs get 1 PPD each), for the era etc, make it impossible to field a near-equal competitive BPV fleet without going overboard on PPDs.

Oh, Jackie, I noticed the CSX (Strike Cruiser, X-refit) is a "command" boat, and the DDL line is not on the list...

[KHH Jakle]

However, in mid-era fights with just the P or Y refits, then it might be feasable to fly an all-PPD fleet, which could get annoying fast.  So, I'd recommend going with a variant of the SFB-rules on PPDs.

The original rule calls for the PPDs on the flagship (up to 4 for a DN / BB), and one more PPD for every 3 ships in addition to the command ship.  Therefore, per SFB, to get a second PPD ship you need a 4 ship squadron

I'd recommend a limit of 4 PPDs, total, in any SFC fleet.  Excemptions may be necessary if the fleet construction rules (say a Mid-era DN & 2 CA battle, if the DNT's not out or can't be afforded, the I-DN gets 4 PPDs and the CAs get 1 PPD each), for the era etc, make it impossible to field a near-equal competitive BPV fleet without going overboard on PPDs....

That is almost exactly how the PBR PPD Deployment Restriction is worded - except our in house SFB Rule's lawyers interpreted the rule as saying the 3rd ship allotted an additional PPD 'slot'.  I actually initially interpreted your way.

Oh, Jackie, I noticed the CSX (Strike Cruiser, X-refit) is a "command" boat, and the DDL line is not on the list...

Thanks...I need all the help I can get fine tuning it  - and soon.  I'd like to wrap it up this weekend so I can publish and official Cycle 3 version.

[Julin Eurthyr]

Okay...

As an experienced ISC captain (though not a ladder player), Looking things over, this is what I've seen so far...

On the rules site:

PPD Deployment Limits:  The ISC limited the fielding of PPD?s.  For a Squadron of ISC ships of 3 or less, the number of PPD?s cannot exceed 4.  ex.  A CCZ and CAZ together have 4 PPD?s, so their 3rd ship could not have a PPD. A DNZ alone has 4 PPD?s, so none of it?s wings could have a PPD.

Just to let you know, typical PPD deployments in the ISC fleet as of the P refit on:

I-CS series, light cruiser, 2 PPDs
I-CM series, light cruiser, 1 PPD
I-CA series, heavy cruiser, 1 PPD
I-CC series, heavy battlecruiser, 2 PPDs
I-DN(H) 4 PPDs
I-DNT 2 PPDs
I-DNL 3 PPDs
I-BB 4 PPDs
"Strike" Carriers typically have PPDs (usually 2), while the "Fleet" carriers typically have Plasma, but won't be an issue as, IIRC, carriers require 2 escorts, and no ISC escort carries a PPD.  The newer "oddball" ships work differently, Fast cruiser and Local Defense ships have no PPDs, while the NCS gets 2 PPDs on a CA-hull...

So, a CCZ / CAZ pair only has 3 PPDs, allowing a CMZ / CAY as the 4th PPD.
It takes either a DN / BB, CC / NCS, or  CC / CS combination, to prevent a fleet from having 3 PPD-armed ships.

Oh, from the sounds of it:

That is almost exactly how the PBR PPD Deployment Restriction is worded - except our in house SFB Rule's lawyers interpreted the rule as saying the 3rd ship allotted an additional PPD 'slot'.  I actually initially interpreted your way.

And the current PPD rule is derived from the initial reading...   Because if you went with the "group's" interpretation, you could go DNH / DDZ - FFZ / CAZ for 595 (w/DDZ) or 573 (w/FFW) with 4 PPDs on the DNH (or DNZ to save 14 more BPV) and the 3rd ship (CAZ in this case) triggers the "additional PPD slot", making a 5-PPD fleet...

I noticed the rules page called for all fights to occur in "late" era.  Exactly what year is this, as it determines a couple of choices available to the ISC officers...  From what I remember of Firesoul's design, refits "overlap" for like 2 years.  2279-2281 is the best range for ISC officers to work in.  The reason being is that the "Z" refit is issued in 2279, and "Y" refits are still available till 2281.  Being that the "Z" refit adds anywhere from 10 to 29 BPV to a ship, it can mean the difference between CCZ / CAZ / CAY (588 BPV) or CCZ / CAZ / CMZ (577 BPV) as a top-end "DN"-centered fleet.  CCZ / CAZ / CAZ is not possible in your rules because the combination is 617 BPV, and you've capped the BPV at 600...

One other thing, I'd recommend making the full PF tenders fall under the "Carrier" rules, since Taldren, in their infinite wisdom, prevented the PF races from fielding true carriers, calling the PFs their "fighters" instead.  Also, I think, at least on a Plasma standpoint, that this would help even-off a "carrier" battle, as it's PF-tender w/ 2 Pl-D escorts vs. Carrier w/2 typically AMD escorts.  Otherwise, it gets very tempting for the PF players to grab a tender with 4xPFLs as their "support" ship...

[Corbomite]

I agree with Julin about the PF Tenders as carriers. Any ship with more than two PF's should be considered a carrier and follow those guidelines.

I can't disagree more about his PPD deployment plan though. I like the original scope of Jackle's rule, it just needs some fine tuning. The "extra slot" thing is a bit vague. After thinking about it some more IMO your choices for PPD deployment on three ships should look like this:


If the largest ship is a CL hull (this includes the CM's) then two PPD's max.

If the largest ship is a CA hull then three PPD's max.

If the largest ship is a DN hull then four PPD's max.


Using what I said in previous posts and making the CM line the Command Variant for the CL hulls, this allows you to take a Strike Cruiser as leader and get your two PPD's, but you can't have two CMP(Z)'s because that would be two Command Variants. This keeps the Plasma to PPD ratio in line as two or more CMP(Z)'s are hard to beat.

The CA and DN levels are a no brainer, although the Plasma Dred and two Strike Cruisers would be an interesting squad.

I still think I-Torps need to be regulated as well. The BPV paid was a bargain for that function.


A couple of things I noticed in the Matrix -

The R-SPJ should be listed as a Combat Support ship, not a Command Variant.

The R-ROCF and G- DNP aren't listed at all. They should be listed as a Carriers, but if you are not going to modify that part they should at least be listed as Command Variants.

I'm pretty sure there are some more HDW's that should be listed in certain places, but I have to look.

[KHH Jakle]

Data Overflow....

I was thinking to try to keep the rule simple, just to limit ISC formations to a single PPD armed ship.  I am being a little abstract, but considering the other rules - this would dovetail in nicely to defacto represent some fairly accurate squadron construction.  I think anyway - please feel free to trouble shoot.

The Total BPV ranges for matches are set as follows on the random generator:

TBPV ranges:
Early 250-500
Mid 300-600
Late 300-700

[KHH Jakle]

A couple of things I noticed in the Matrix -

The R-SPJ should be listed as a Combat Support ship, not a Command Variant.

The R-ROCF and G- DNP aren't listed at all. They should be listed as a Carriers, but if you are not going to modify that part they should at least be listed as Command Variants.

I'm pretty sure there are some more HDW's that should be listed in certain places, but I have to look.

The R-SPJ has been noted.

Can't believe I missed the ROCF and the DNP.

And the HDW's in OP+ are a bit tricky to ferret out their actual role...so any help there is appreciated.

[Munin_Raven]

Hook me up with a pair of rommies to fly with (i prefer the wingman to winglead role) and a link to where your fleet composition rules are posted and consider me in. (and then watch as the feebs learn to fear the darkness of "empty" space  )

[KHH Jakle]

http://gzleagues.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1220

That will take you to the current Rules...they will be modified prior to Cycle start - nothing hugely signifigant to be changed though.

I'll see about some Rommies....

[el-Karnak]

I'll play with the ISC guys.  Will check with my fleet if they are interested about getting a GFL squadron involved.