Topic: restricted ships  (Read 12702 times)

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Offline Julin Eurthyr

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Re: restricted ships
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2004, 09:49:05 pm »
Yep Dogmatix...

Those silly commando ships picked on too many players... 8)

Take a D6G:

88 marines, 9 transporters with which to put them on with...

7 Ph-2s, rear-firing, that can probably knock out a shield at range 0 with an aft-fire after an overrun.

From that point, 35 power allows the Klink to phaserboat at speed 31, using Klingon maneuverability to stay on that downed shield.

Within 4 turns, there's going to probably be 36 Klingon marines on the enemy ship.  Many CAs top off at 32 marines, so it's 4 turns (2 photon charge cycles or just a little over a Plasma charge cycle...) to kill the enemy before inevitable capture sets in...

With doubled internals, show me a CA that can severely cripple, if not outright destroy, that D6G in 2 minutes once the line ship loses a shield.  Often times, that's all ilt takes for a line CA to effectively lose their ship.  Of course, there may be a couple more turns while the marines fight it out, but at that point the commando pilot floors it out of dodge and let's the marines do the work...

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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: restricted ships
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2004, 09:50:58 pm »
Commando ships WERE cheesy when people could use them to get 25,000 PP in and hour running shiyard defense missions.  

This is not the case anymore as the stock Taldren mission have gone bye-bye, maybe they could make a comeback?
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Offline KBF-Dogmatix_XC

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Re: restricted ships
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2004, 09:56:43 pm »
Yep Dogmatix...

Those silly commando ships picked on too many players... 8)

Take a D6G:

88 marines, 9 transporters with which to put them on with...

7 Ph-2s, rear-firing, that can probably knock out a shield at range 0 with an aft-fire after an overrun.

From that point, 35 power allows the Klink to phaserboat at speed 31, using Klingon maneuverability to stay on that downed shield.

Within 4 turns, there's going to probably be 36 Klingon marines on the enemy ship.  Many CAs top off at 32 marines, so it's 4 turns (2 photon charge cycles or just a little over a Plasma charge cycle...) to kill the enemy before inevitable capture sets in...

With doubled internals, show me a CA that can severely cripple, if not outright destroy, that D6G in 2 minutes once the line ship loses a shield.  Often times, that's all ilt takes for a line CA to effectively lose their ship.  Of course, there may be a couple more turns while the marines fight it out, but at that point the commando pilot floors it out of dodge and let's the marines do the work...


Erm...phaserboat....with Ph2s?  With those arcs?  I'm not even sure Madelf could do that...heheh.





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Offline FVA_C_ Blade_ XC

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Re: restricted ships
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2004, 10:03:39 pm »
Problem is you get some wanker with a dial-up flying a fleet and viola.

I agree with DH less cheese is good!
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Offline GDA-S'Cipio

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Re: restricted ships
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2004, 01:33:28 am »



Cool picture, Corbo.

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Offline GDA-S'Cipio

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Re: restricted ships
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2004, 01:37:17 am »


To be sure, I do not have the same objection to commando ships that I do to escorts.  I suspect a great many were built for planetary raids and invasions, since planets are the prize of the war.  Also they aren't very expensive so far as shipbuilding goes; you just load them up with war's cheapest hardware.  (Infantry!)  I've certainly never found them to be cheesey.

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Offline Gook

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Re: restricted ships
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2004, 03:24:15 am »
Hmmmmm even in SFB Gatling's are common as muck, F-14s, F-15s, and the most common fighter of all F-16s not to mention others. No good saying it's a fighter variant it still does the same damage put those on ships. FF/DD/CL hulls are mass produced, CC and BCH hulls are not they are much More costly, have way bigger crews, and more specialisms on one ship.

Escorts are used not just for CVAs although the NAC style ones will be reserved for that, but convoy, fleet and patrols duties especially the smaller FF/DD hulls.

Now with the current players are there many who think the Escort is going to take out the CC/BCH! If Squiggy were here you may have an argument, but he is not.

Commando ships, well I disagree with Dog the D6G is not good, its bloody marvelous!( 9 trannies is usually one more than the defendingship has Marines) but seriously if anyone in PvP, in the ships many fly allow themselves to be "captured" by a D6G, don't you think the quodos should go to the D6 pilot or whatever Commando ship! capturing a CC or BCH piloted by a player in an old ship by boarding would be so cool. As for PP farming, what the hell difference does it make if you have a Gazillion PP, there are only so many ships, bases etc you can lay down, and while farming the player is usually out of the action. Lets face it we all farm to get the ships we want just to a lesser extent.

No one has mentioned Tugs. Have they ever been used in a campaign? What are the views
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Offline Julin Eurthyr

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Re: restricted ships
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2004, 08:59:12 am »
Commando ships, well I disagree with Dog the D6G is not good, its bloody marvelous!( 9 trannies is usually one more than the defendingship has Marines) but seriously if anyone in PvP, in the ships many fly allow themselves to be "captured" by a D6G, don't you think the quodos should go to the D6 pilot or whatever Commando ship! capturing a CC or BCH piloted by a player in an old ship by boarding would be so cool. As for PP farming, what the hell difference does it make if you have a Gazillion PP, there are only so many ships, bases etc you can lay down, and while farming the player is usually out of the action. Lets face it we all farm to get the ships we want just to a lesser extent.

No one has mentioned Tugs. Have they ever been used in a campaign? What are the views

I don't think kudos are really deserving to the commando pilot.

Consider this:

1.  7 Ph-2s, all 7 fire directly out the rear centerline.  At range 0, those 7 Ph-2s are enough to knock down any CL or smaller's shield, and on a decent roll enough to scrap most CAs rear shields.  If not, the 3 forward Ph-2s in a shot or 2 can finish the job.
2.  Maneuverability class B, along with 35 power, means the D6Gs probably going to fly 31, trickle charging phasers.  If the enemy's not doing 31, they can slow down and put up some ECM / reinforcement.  Once they're in range, the speed / maneuverability advantages of this ship are going to let him dictate what shield and range he's going to stay at (which is probably 5-5.99 on the hurt / down shield.  Counter strategy is to phaserboat yourself, doing speed 31 to keep the enemy outside of the magic range.  It takes a while of phaserboating to weaken the commando ship enough to be able to kill him in the 2-minute window at close range...
3.  In SFCs double internal environment, the D6Gs barely going to feel the first alpha strike, and, if he does take a second one, is going to be mildly hurt, not severely crippled and basically ineffective like it would be in SFB.
4.  Once the shield is down, the D6G's putting 36 marines (more than just about anyone's CA carries) in 2 minutes, and can dump enough marines to cap just about any ship in the game within 3 minutes (6 turns).  At that point, the D6G's taking off out of effective range of all weapons and letting the clock run on the enemy ship.

Therefore, in the hands of even a mildly experienced pilot, the commando boat is quite a lethal weapon, as it can take damage (don't forget the barracks are hit on hull, doubled internals, and do not automatically kill off 10 marines with each blown up box...), can effectively kill most any ship in 2-3 minutes of engagement without relying on actual weapons, and, outside of Klink / Hydran / Lyran, all commando boats are armed with Ph-1s, not Ph-2s...

From what I remember (as I was thankfully not the victim of a commando boat myself), this was par for the course / SOP from just about any race's commando boat.

Tugs, on the other hand, have only been flown for "novelty" so far.  They are quite powerful ships, but oftentimes much slower / less maneuverable than an equivalent counterpart.  I don't know if they would be flown as cheese if left unrestricted, as most admins have been keeping them off the lists for now...

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Offline Hexx

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Re: restricted ships
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2004, 09:26:13 am »
Actually Julin (imho) yer really off base with the commando boats.
Sure the D6G can crack a shield with it's 7 Ph2's, but anyone who doesn't also crack the D6's shield shoulsn't be flying.
Or of course the guy could wait until the D6 drops a shield then really pound him.
Then the other guy should just pound the D6 -if he is trying to Phaserboat at 31 he's got no real power for reinforcement/tractors/ or  ECM.
And even against a ship with 24 marines it's going to take him quite awhile to whittle them down.
first pass - beam over 9 (against 24) probably lose one on beam over and by the time you recycle your going to have  4, maybe 5 left, another 9 says maybe 14 against 22 if you're lucky, then recycle and another 9 makes it 20 or 21 against 22 then on the fourth turn you've got him.If not you should on the 5th.
Of course that assumes no transporters lost during the pounding you're going to be taking at range 5 (or less) .

I really don't care if commando boats are restricted or not, they are good against AI but theres no real chance of them winning a PvP against a breathing opponent unless they're used against a <much> smaller ship.
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Offline Corbomite

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Re: restricted ships
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2004, 09:36:17 am »
Tugs were in one campaign, but they were showing up in every mission because of the number of variants. Not only was it "unrealistic", it was boring fighting Tugs every mission, so they were restrricted.



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Offline KAT J'inn

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Re: restricted ships
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2004, 12:41:20 pm »
Excuse me for barging in but I have a bit of business to do.

For the record . . .

This entire Escorts issue is Krueg's fault.

Thank you.   Carry on.


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Offline Gook

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Re: restricted ships
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2004, 01:22:15 pm »
When it comes down to PvP if you are in a CCZ, G-BCH, KRC( I never get this one right but the bugger with 10,000 p1s is the one I mean :) ), BCF, BCHPP+, Z-BCH, or OV, would you rather face a C7 or a D6G? (insert other variants for each race as applicable)?

Neither Commandos or Escorts should hold any terrors for a BCH pilot, Tugs maybe, but probably not. So far as Tugs in lists are concerned just restrict them to 3 types (not too concerned about Tugs), but I really can't see any reason for restricting escorts or Commandos. The only ones which might give slight concern are the FED DE line, but even then PGs are not much use above range 3ish, so don't close. Drone boats hate them with a vengence, plasma may too but not as much, but apart from that, no fermented milk products in sight.
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Offline Julin Eurthyr

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Re: restricted ships
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2004, 04:08:00 pm »
Hexx:

Between actual Hull hits, Cargo, and Barracks, all of which are, in SFC, basically "Hull Hits", the D6G can absorb 42 internals without breaking a sweat or losing something of any worth.  Damage priorities (cargo and Barracks are hit on "hull"), means that 20 of these internals are effectively "center hull", after the 8 (4x2) Forward and 14 (7x2) aft hull internals...  Along with it's 30 point front shield, it can take a full scatterpack or most alpha strikes without feeling a thing...

So, the typical Commando pilot is willing to eat one alpha for minor damage (usually at most a stunned or destroyed Phaser is the major effects felt by the commando boat), while it can knock down a shield and start going to town.

I will concede that marines will die initially, yet the point still remains.  Can you destroy a Commando ship that's probably sitting in your weakest arc while he's busy shipping 8 or 9-packs of marines over?  And once you hit that first transporter, a carefully timed repair will make transporters effectively immortal while the repairs are completed, at least a turn or 2, enough to get a good set of marines onboard...

It's still a race the typical commando pilot's primed to win.  While I'm using the D6G as an example for now (as it was the first one mentioned), what would you think about a F-COV with 26 "Hull" (52 free internals), 26 nose shield, and 4 Ph-1s, sending 7 marines per shot, max of 64?  Or a G-COM with 24 shield, 24 "hull", 2-4 F-torps, 4 Ph-1s and a beam-over rate of 5 marines per turn?  At least we don't have to worry about GAS / marine assault shuttles "beaming" lots of troops over during the overrun...

On paper, commando ships with doubled internals are quite powerful.  Previous experience has caused enough whining to have gotten them banned in the first place.  I agree, it might be worth it to let them come back on a server someday, as tactics have evolved and whinyness has faded out a bit, but we should keep the lessons of the past in mind while doing so...

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Offline Hexx

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Re: restricted ships
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2004, 06:49:04 pm »
Actually speaking of restricted ships

-Any chance we can get those HDW's restricted out for GW3?
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Offline Green

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Re: restricted ships
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2004, 07:30:48 pm »
Actually speaking of restricted ships

-Any chance we can get those HDW's restricted out for GW3?


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Offline Rod ONeal

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Re: restricted ships
« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2004, 09:13:38 pm »
After reading the anti-commando ship sentiments, I'm concerned about the Seltorians that I have planned. It's part of their racial tendencies to capture opponents. Now, there achilles heal is they aren't very maneuverable, can't HET (safely), and there offensive firepower is concentrated in the FA arc. No seeking weapons. Purely a directfire race, which means they need to use power to arm and hold all of their weapons. So, they shouldn't be especially fast.

:example:
FF/DD= 4-trans, 10-bp, turn-C
CL/CA= 6-trans, 20-bp, turn-D
BCH/DN= 6-trans, 30-bp, turn-E

Comments from the experienced MP people? There transporter/BP capability could be reduced, but at the expense of removing their uniqueness.
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Offline Laflin

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Re: restricted ships
« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2004, 10:49:02 pm »
Hexx:

Between actual Hull hits, Cargo, and Barracks, all of which are, in SFC, basically "Hull Hits", the D6G can absorb 42 internals without breaking a sweat or losing something of any worth.  Damage priorities (cargo and Barracks are hit on "hull"), means that 20 of these internals are effectively "center hull", after the 8 (4x2) Forward and 14 (7x2) aft hull internals...  Along with it's 30 point front shield, it can take a full scatterpack or most alpha strikes without feeling a thing...

So, the typical Commando pilot is willing to eat one alpha for minor damage (usually at most a stunned or destroyed Phaser is the major effects felt by the commando boat), while it can knock down a shield and start going to town.

I will concede that marines will die initially, yet the point still remains.  Can you destroy a Commando ship that's probably sitting in your weakest arc while he's busy shipping 8 or 9-packs of marines over?  And once you hit that first transporter, a carefully timed repair will make transporters effectively immortal while the repairs are completed, at least a turn or 2, enough to get a good set of marines onboard...

It's still a race the typical commando pilot's primed to win.  While I'm using the D6G as an example for now (as it was the first one mentioned), what would you think about a F-COV with 26 "Hull" (52 free internals), 26 nose shield, and 4 Ph-1s, sending 7 marines per shot, max of 64?  Or a G-COM with 24 shield, 24 "hull", 2-4 F-torps, 4 Ph-1s and a beam-over rate of 5 marines per turn?  At least we don't have to worry about GAS / marine assault shuttles "beaming" lots of troops over during the overrun...

On paper, commando ships with doubled internals are quite powerful.  Previous experience has caused enough whining to have gotten them banned in the first place.  I agree, it might be worth it to let them come back on a server someday, as tactics have evolved and whinyness has faded out a bit, but we should keep the lessons of the past in mind while doing so...

I would collapse in my chair in an apoplectic fit of joy if I saw a D6G pull in front of my Lyran BC in order to use those phasers.  Oh, the options!

Offline Julin Eurthyr

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Re: restricted ships
« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2004, 11:28:23 pm »
I would collapse in my chair in an apoplectic fit of joy if I saw a D6G pull in front of my Lyran BC in order to use those phasers.  Oh, the options!

Who said they were going to stay in front of you longer than it took them to overrun you and crack your tail open...  They can keep your shields down quite nicely with only 3 Ph-2s...

That's my whole point.  One overrun (if that), then the commando-boat's sitting on your tail (and away from most of your guns) for the rest of the mission...

Seltorians, on the other hand, might be a bit of a pain in the neck.  I'd probably call for a 1/3 reduction in 'porters to reflect the extra staying power they gain from double internals, but keep the capture mechanic and large marine contingents in place.

Looking at post, BC / DN with 30 BPs and 6 porters?  My ISC DNs have more than that, (like 48 BPs and 5-6 porters) and we're not a marine-happy race like the Klingons or Lyrans... :(

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Offline madelf

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Re: restricted ships
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2004, 01:12:00 am »
Yep Dogmatix...

Those silly commando ships picked on too many players... 8)

Take a D6G:

88 marines, 9 transporters with which to put them on with...

7 Ph-2s, rear-firing, that can probably knock out a shield at range 0 with an aft-fire after an overrun.

From that point, 35 power allows the Klink to phaserboat at speed 31, using Klingon maneuverability to stay on that downed shield.

Within 4 turns, there's going to probably be 36 Klingon marines on the enemy ship.  Many CAs top off at 32 marines, so it's 4 turns (2 photon charge cycles or just a little over a Plasma charge cycle...) to kill the enemy before inevitable capture sets in...

With doubled internals, show me a CA that can severely cripple, if not outright destroy, that D6G in 2 minutes once the line ship loses a shield.  Often times, that's all ilt takes for a line CA to effectively lose their ship.  Of course, there may be a couple more turns while the marines fight it out, but at that point the commando pilot floors it out of dodge and let's the marines do the work...


Erm...phaserboat....with Ph2s?  With those arcs?  I'm not even sure Madelf could do that...heheh.






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Offline Rod ONeal

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Re: restricted ships
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2004, 01:44:49 am »

Looking at post, BC / DN with 30 BPs and 6 porters?  My ISC DNs have more than that, (like 48 BPs and 5-6 porters) and we're not a marine-happy race like the Klingons or Lyrans... :(

The Selt DN doesn't have too many transporters. Across the board though, they have a lot. That 30-bp is base, not max. 60-bp if you load up on them. I personally don't have a problem. I think that they're fine. Their lack of maneuverability and mostly FA firepower seems to me to balance out the extra transporter combat capability. I was just wondering if anyone else would look at it and cry cheese. I don't have a whole lot of P vs. P experience and was wondering what others with more experience thought. Keep in mind too that they will be allied with those Lyrans and Klinks.
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