Topic: The Roddenberry Federation vs. the Berman Federation  (Read 2239 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Dash Jones

  • Sub-Commander of the Dark Side
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 6477
  • Gender: Male
The Roddenberry Federation vs. the Berman Federation
« on: August 07, 2004, 02:38:45 am »
This could have gone in another thread, but would have taken it FAR off topic.  Instead I've decided to start a new thread.  Hard time deciding whether to put it in the H&S forum or this one, but since it is ultimately Star Trek, I decided on this one.

In TOS the Federation is not really seen as Socialist, at least in my eyes.  It is more symbolic of freedom and equality much as the Democracies of the Western World.  In fact I'd say it represented the US, and to a lesser extent the UN.  This is even seen in TOS overall for the first few seasons.  In that it is seen as the Ultimate of freedom and expression as well as deciding what one wishes and chances for bettering one's life.

On the otherhand it can be seen in TOS that the Klingons represent more of the USSR and the Romulans, when present in the few episodes they show up, as the Chinese.  Some will even go far enough to say the Vulcans were representative of the Japanese.

This continued into the first three seasons of TNG.  In opposition to all things of individuality and freedom, a new race which could almost be seen as the ULTIMATE of Socialism or Communism was brought up, the borg.  It is where all are completely equal, and all is held in common, so much so that they seek to bring all to an equal footing, and no one has anything above any other, including thoughts.

This is seen as evil.  It is obvious evil.  Hence the vast differences between the capitalitic Democracies vs. the more Communistic Socialism.

However, after Roddenberry was gone, one starts seeing a dynamic shift in how people's and organizations are percieved.  The Borg suddenly get an heirarchy, one with a queen.  At the same time the Federation becomes more of a Socialistic government with everyone being held in equality...excluding in an obvious flaw, the officers in Star Fleet and the amount of equality of command between them.  It is then the Ferengi who are more capitalistic, and during DS9 they get a more favorable view, much like the Western Powers in conjunction with the UN or the US.  At the same time the Klingons are viewed more as an oriental race in some regards, though the roots could be thought to stem from the TNG ideas of honor and such, many of that came from the fourth and fifth seasons of TNG and it's dealings with Klingons. 

So here's the thought.  Roddenberry, a former AF Officer paralleled the Federation to the US.  HIS Federation was not Socialistic, but had more of a direct parallel between the US governments and democracies.  To show the differences in his parrallels, he showed the other societies which would represent the communist or Socialistic agendas...and these almost always were in conflict with the Federation.  Peace was the point many times of his shows, but it still showed how diametrically opposed these two forms of government were.

On the otherhand, as we see Berman gain more of an influence, we see the Federation change to more of a uniquely Socialistic form of government.  Hence the views of Berman and Roddenberry overall are different in approach, and how they see the future.

Just some thoughts as I've watched the TNG seasons 1 through 5 this week along with Voyager Season 1.

Any comments on this, or how you see this?
"All hominins are hominids, but not all hominids are hominins."


"Is this a Christian perspective?

Now where in the Bible does it say if someone does something stupid you should shoot them in the face?"

-------

We have whale farms in Jersey.   They're called McDonald's.

There is no "I" in team. There are two "I"s in Vin Diesel. screw you, team.

Offline Chris Johnson

  • I used to be a Captain a forum or two ago...
  • Lt.
  • *
  • Posts: 817
  • Gender: Male
  • Hai! Hai!
Re: The Roddenberry Federation vs. the Berman Federation
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2004, 03:11:06 am »
I noticed the changes about the Borg--as well as other species in TNG--but if you ask me, the Klingons lacked flavor in TOS.  They seem too much like Human Russians and little uniqueness of their own.  I like to think that Klingons at such a time wasn't represented as a whole in TOS, because all I see about them is what Federation propoganda labels them.  Kirk's descriptions of Klingons was a fine example of such in "Errand of Mercy" [TOS].  It just seemed to exaggerative.  I don't believe we ever got a fine look at Klingons until TNG came, at a time when Gene wanted an old enemy to be a new friend, and we've come to know how Klingons are the way they are.  I could only imagine TOS with TNG-esque Klingons and culture, and it would've happened if TOS had a better budget, at least my guess would be such.  But that's just my preference, and how I view things.

"Oh, shut up!" -- Wil Wheaton to Wesley Crusher

Offline Magnum357

  • Lt.
  • *
  • Posts: 641
Re: The Roddenberry Federation vs. the Berman Federation
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2004, 03:43:36 am »
I agree with many of your points Dash.  I personally beleive that Gene and Berman have a clearly different philosophy on the Star Trek world.  I'm not exactly sure we can say Gene didn't think of the Federation as a socialist government, since many episodes dealt with the Enterprise far into deep space then on earth in the 23rd century.  The only espisodes that I recal that actually were placed on earth where the motion picture movies.  ST:IV pointed out that their was no money in the 23rd century (or at least not the same kind of currency we are use to).  More then likely, it was some form of Credit, and actually we are already heading torward that direction with all the Credit cards and stock holdings in our world today.  Its hard to say if Gene was invisioning this in TOS/TMP or not.  But I think TNG does show some sort of Socialistic government used by earth and maybe the Federation.  Probably isn't like what we see on earth (really guys, can you see any governments on earth today working that effeicently like we see on Star Trek?) but their has to be some sort of socialistic governemnt in place because people don't seem to worry about money as much, and we don't seem to see people that are hugely wealthy. 

As for the Borg being a symbolic representation of Communism, ya I guess you could look at it that way.  doesn't it seem odd how their are so many Sifi shows that represent basically two or three types of government?  Si Fi shows always seem to symbolize Capitolistic, Socialistic, and communistic style governments for races.  Is this really acurate of how intellegent species work?  Is it always this equation?  You know, someday in the far future, if we ever travel out to deep space and find other civilizations, it would be interesting too see if this is really true or not.

As for Berman, I'm not exactly sure which way he looks at Star Trek.  I know he thinks differently then Gene (which is not totally bad) but at times I wonder if he doesn't totally beleive the "Utopian" society that Gene used so much.  I don't mind theory behind Socialistic societies, but I'm always affraid when you make a government totally Socialistic, it leads to the possibility of "Big Brother" society, not Utopia.  And I think all of us on here can agree that "Big Brother" is kind of a scary thought. 
"I sure am glad I like SFB!" - Magnum357 (me)

Offline Chris SI

  • Gone again
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2606
Re: The Roddenberry Federation vs. the Berman Federation
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2004, 10:21:24 am »
I see TOS Klingons as a COMBINATION of the Soviets and the Nazis actually.

The Romulans always seemed more like the Japanese then anything else, and both would reflect Gene's life, WWII was only about 20 years passed when he began Trek.

TNG seems more like a utopian future, no money, everybody has everything, yet on places like DS 9, money is needed. I remember Cmd Eddington's comments when he first betrayed Star Fleet "The Federation is more insidious then the Borg, they get into everything, and they never let go"

The Ferengi also felt this way, as did several other races. The Klingons in the TOS movies make it clear they view the Federation as racist, human dominated, with the Vulcans acting as 'intellectual puppets.'

Gene's orginal Federation seemed a place I would like, TNG seemed like an intergalactic 'mommy state' dominating every aspect of life.
Taldren poster known as FFZ

Offline KBF-Crim

  • 1st Deacon ,Church of Taldren
  • Global Moderator
  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 12271
  • Gender: Male
  • Crim,son of Rus'l
Re: The Roddenberry Federation vs. the Berman Federation
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2004, 10:41:08 am »
LOL...Geez...I cant really think of much to add... ;D


Offline RazalYllib

  • Imperial Romulan Information Service-senior advisor
  • Lt.
  • *
  • Posts: 784
  • Gender: Male
    • IRIS
Re: The Roddenberry Federation vs. the Berman Federation
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2004, 06:50:33 pm »
Some SCI-FI writers have envisioned elaborately conceived alien culture/governments...unfortunately many of them don't write for TV...

A couple of faves....Moties from the Mote in Gods Eye.  Berserker's, Saberhagens Borg done right,
Comes a time when the blind man takes your hand
Says "don't you see?"
Gotta make it somehow
On the dreams you still believe
Don't give it up
You got an empty cup
Only love can fill
Only love can fill

Offline Rat Boy

  • Bringer of the Funk
  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1938
Re: The Roddenberry Federation vs. the Berman Federation
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2004, 09:15:26 pm »
I prefer the Ira Steven Behr Federation...

"It's easy to be a saint in paradise."


"Chaos Theory, Part II" now available.

Offline zerosnark

  • Lt. Junior Grade
  • *
  • Posts: 104
Re: The Roddenberry Federation vs. the Berman Federation
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2004, 09:32:07 pm »
A few *excellent* posts in this thread.  :notworthy:

I agree there have been a few changes in flavor over the years. Clearly TOS, written in the 1960's, is heavily colored by the times. I can't say we can draw much of a conclusion regarding the romulans, considering we only saw the *military* part of the empire in only *two* episodes. The Klinks are definately modelled after an iron curtain society. One where "Every one is watched" (the organian episode).

TNG/DS9 seemed clearly split into two eras. Throughout, my impression is the the Klingons were given a very rich culture and back story.

I would agree that the Federation appears very socialist in all series. There are Credits (In the TOS era, there was Harry Mudd; In TNG, there are the capitalistic Ferengi), but for the most part it seems each citizen has the opportunity to reach their full potential. There are no social biases, and no indication of economic classes. There is a heirarchy within Star Fleet, but that is fundamentally a *military* organisation and clearly must have both admirals and crewmen.

In my mind, the Borg were botched with the introduction of the hive queen. The appearance of this character totally blew the concept of this monster race. I guess most of the damage was done in "first contact" and the Voyager series. Best of Both worlds was an excellent episode. I viewed the Borg as simply a mind boggling monster. . .kind of like the blob with Phasers.

The Ferengi. . . .oh the Ferengi. And the romulans. . .so much potential. . . Clearly TNG wanted the Ferengi to be the Federation Enemy, but they became too much of a charicture (pardon spelling) with their money lust. . finally, they could ONLY be used as comic relief in DS9. As so TPTB brought back the romulans as an Enemy. Remember the episode where they *announced* "We are back". How lame. Totally lame. . .and IMHO the romulans remained lame through the whole series.

more later. . . .

Offline SkyFlyer

  • D.Net Beta Tester
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 4240
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Roddenberry Federation vs. the Berman Federation
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2004, 02:42:23 am »
I've thought about this quite a bit... Although I would disagree with you about the Vulcan/Japanese thing...  But other  than that ur dead on.
Life is short... running makes it seem longer.

"A god who let us prove his existence would be an idol" - Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Offline J. Carney

  • Son of Dixie
  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 10705
  • Gender: Male
  • Fortuna Favet Fortibus
Re: The Roddenberry Federation vs. the Berman Federation
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2004, 08:20:27 am »
I've thought about this quite a bit... Although I would disagree with you about the Vulcan/Japanese thing...  But other  than that ur dead on.

Japan- wild, war-loving, honorbound people that gave up all violence as a means of resolving confilct.

Vulcans- wild, war-loving, honorbound people that gave up all violence as a means of resolving confilct.

Remember, when Gene had the Romulans and Vulcans written into the script the first time, Japan was not the industrial superpower that she is today, just a pasifistic country trying to sort it out.

The comparason is an apt one for both the Vulcans (recent Japan) and the Romulans (per WWII Japan).
Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for. - Earl Warron

The advantages of living in the Heart of Dixie- low cost of living, peace and quiet and a conservative majority. For some reason I think that the first two items have a lot to do with the presence of the last one.

"Flag of Alabama I salute thee. To thee I pledge my allegiance, my service, and my life."
   

Offline Chris SI

  • Gone again
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2606
Re: The Roddenberry Federation vs. the Berman Federation
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2004, 02:17:10 pm »
I'm pretty sure Gene viewed the Romulans as Japanese, not Chinese.

At that time, the only people who killed themselves when they failed at war were the Japanese, and this is also a Romulan trait, as we saw in 'Balence of Terror.'

TOS' era also seemed a little more wild, with a lot of pioneer types, and the Starfeelt personel come accross as very dedicated and very motivated, far moreso then in the TNG era. This is especially true in the novels from the TOS era. The TNG era seems more reflective, maybe more mature, but also more pacsifist, and of course, the Federation woiuld suffer horribly for this in the Dominion war.
Taldren poster known as FFZ

Offline Chris Johnson

  • I used to be a Captain a forum or two ago...
  • Lt.
  • *
  • Posts: 817
  • Gender: Male
  • Hai! Hai!
Re: The Roddenberry Federation vs. the Berman Federation
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2004, 06:51:09 pm »
They did during the incident at Wolf 359 in 2367, hadn't they?  And probably hadn't learn their message much when the Jem'Hedar popped up.

I don't know exactly how to view the Romulans and Klingons of TNG now, other than the fact that the Klingons have been taking in a more Oriental approach, and the Romulans... *shrug*  Any thoughts?

"Oh, shut up!" -- Wil Wheaton to Wesley Crusher

Offline J. Carney

  • Son of Dixie
  • Commodore
  • *
  • Posts: 10705
  • Gender: Male
  • Fortuna Favet Fortibus
Re: The Roddenberry Federation vs. the Berman Federation
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2004, 07:45:51 pm »
They did during the incident at Wolf 359 in 2367, hadn't they?  And probably hadn't learn their message much when the Jem'Hedar popped up.

I don't know exactly how to view the Romulans and Klingons of TNG now, other than the fact that the Klingons have been taking in a more Oriental approach, and the Romulans... *shrug*  Any thoughts?

Demonspawn from Hell?

I think that they just made the Romulans bad, without reguard for basing them on anything.

LIke much of what was done to Trek, it was an idea with no substance- like Tori's value on the bridge. ;D
Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for. - Earl Warron

The advantages of living in the Heart of Dixie- low cost of living, peace and quiet and a conservative majority. For some reason I think that the first two items have a lot to do with the presence of the last one.

"Flag of Alabama I salute thee. To thee I pledge my allegiance, my service, and my life."
   

Offline Captain Pierce

  • Lt. Junior Grade
  • *
  • Posts: 356
Re: The Roddenberry Federation vs. the Berman Federation
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2004, 06:35:32 pm »
All I know is, the Berman Federation (with its 600-ship fleets) would kick the Roddenberry Federation's (40 ships lost was a big deal) ASS...  ;)

More seriously, everything I've ever seen about TOS makes the comparison between the Romulans and the Communist Chinese; however, I can't recall off the top of my head if any that is from people who actually worked on the show, or just from people making theories.  :)  Personally, I think the Romulans are the most mishandled race in Star Trek--IMO, they've never been "properly" done, and as a result after all their appearances we still have no idea what the hell they're all about.  All they had to do was pay Diane Duane to let them use her "Rihanssu" backstory, and the Romulans could actually have been interesting, but nooooooooooo, they knew better...   ::)
Trekmods SFC/BC/Nexus forum

"Don't forget the original series, or dismiss it as obsolete. You owe it everything."  --Shane Johnson, author of Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise

Offline Magnum357

  • Lt.
  • *
  • Posts: 641
Re: The Roddenberry Federation vs. the Berman Federation
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2004, 03:02:09 am »
Ya, no kidding peirce.  Romulans have really been under used throughout the whole franchise.  Even Cardassians are better portrayed then Romulans.  That is why I really like SFB more then just its great playability, but it has a really rich history and makes each race "feel" unique.

Personally, I like to think of Romulans a lot like Vulcans in my opinion, but with a lot of emotion.  Nemisis had the potential to really expose and define the way Romulans worked, but B & B did them all wrong in my opinion, and I really think I could have come up with a better basic plot to the story then what we saw.  For example, a Romulan civil war would have been an interesting plot line to the whole story of Nemisis.  The Dominion War or Section 31 could have been related to it aswell.  Oh well...  ::)
"I sure am glad I like SFB!" - Magnum357 (me)