Topic: The Numbered Flamefest Aftermath.

[el-Karnak]

Sometimes the object will be to flip faster, rather than engage in PvP (Hail Mary) for instance.

Which is exactly why we have the disengagement rule.

Gook is pretty good at reinforcing the arguments in favor of the disengagement rule.

<Snicker>

What has the disenagement rule got to do with the accusation that droners don't like PvP? Nothing so why bring it up. It is not a panacea for all, and certainly nothing to do with the point under discussion, so the heads are for frustration at a totally pointless mantra.

I fail to see what the relevance of the example quoted has to do with the disengagement rule, which was in place at the time of the example, and there is nothing wrong or cheesy in going for a VC the most efficient way.

I am merely and gently, but firmly with the utmost of respect, pointing out that the points that are being brought out in detail, some may say ad nauseum, by your thread, are merely bearing irretrievable elucidation on the inexorable need for the disengagement rule in contemporary dynaverse play.  To which all the players of the plasma races are perhaps satisfied with this riposte of dyna verboseness.

If you wish to discuss "droners don't do PvP" issue.  Many do.  Some do a lot.  A lot of them do lotsa IP games and we all have lotsa fun.

And then there are some that do too much PvP.  For example:  "Fluf wants the name of your ship?  Knight 15, why?"

I rest my case.

However, this does not hide the fact that many droners or any hex flipper specialist will avoid PvP from time to time for tactical reasons which is all find and dandy, IMHO.  I don't even quibble about deliberately owl-timed blitzkreig assaults like the Coalition did in SS2 or Alliance did in GW2.  It's all part of the game.

As long as we can all respect each other's different opinions and still get a pick-up IP game going then me happy frog.

[Lepton]

Ok, so all you Kzins are telling me that when you fly DF+s, it is so that you can engage in effective PvP??  And you're also telling me that flying similar hex-flipping ships that are only effective at drafting inadequate AI are really intended to be PvP competitve?

Running and avoiding PvP are not the same thing.  In fact my expectation would be that flippers would stay in a mission as it ties up ships so that others may avoid PvP.  Let us not forget.  Most of the time we are facing AI.  Flipper boats take advantage of a stupid AI.  These boats are called flippers because they can run fast missions.  By definition for these ships to be effective and to meet the requirements of being called flippers, they need to avoid human players, as they are flown to beat up on AI.  So unless we are prepared to deny that there is any such thing as hex-flipping and flipper ships, then you all need to check yourself on the facts.

[KAT MRess]

Ok, so all you Kzins are telling me that when you fly DF+s, it is so that you can engage in effective PvP??

Quite simply, YES! On a regular basis.

And you're also telling me that flying similar hex-flipping ships that are only effective at drafting inadequate AI are really intended to be PvP competitve?

We fly PvP with what we have and take our chances. I personally have done it regularly (how many people have blown me up while flying a DF?) .

Running and avoiding PvP are not the same thing.

No argument there.

In fact my expectation would be that flippers would stay in a mission as it ties up ships so that others may avoid PvP.

Then your expectation are sorely misplaced. You cannot "tie up" ships by running missions, as the server will always generate more for you to compete against. Additionally, you cannot expect a "hex-flipper" to realistically "tie up" a player opponent as they regularly are outclassed. DISENGAGEMENT RULE: They have to engage or run off the board. If they engage they blow up real quick, a regular occurence for me. If they run, the mission ends quickly. The only tying up that could occur is when you have two evenly matched ships in a very well fought battle. And in that situation, one is hardly "AVOIDING" PvP.

Besides "staying" in mission would defeat the purpose of flipping hexes as it takes longer to shift the DV.

 

Let us not forget.  Most of the time we are facing AI.  Flipper boats take advantage of a stupid AI.  These boats are called flippers because they can run fast missions. 

Are you implying that droners are the only ones that take advantage of Dumb AI? Everyone does. How fast we do it is what the balancing issue comes down to. So this point is moot as this is the very issue that is trying to be balanced.

By definition for these ships to be effective and to meet the requirements of being called flippers, they need to avoid human players, as they are flown to beat up on AI.  So unless we are prepared to deny that there is any such thing as hex-flipping and flipper ships, then you all need to check yourself on the facts.

Definition? There's a definition for this? Are you saying that PvP ships cannot flip hexes?

I have never denied that hex-flipping occurs. It occurs regularly and frequently BY ALL RACES. Each race has ships that are better suited for that particular duty.

What I'm saying is that it is grossly unfair and insulting to generalize ALL droners as "Hex -flippers who avoid PvP", for the reasons stated in previous posts.

[Lepton]

It seems to me that you deny at every turn what is common knowledge and common currency on the D2, so either you have serious differences in perception to the point of being ludicrous, or you are advancing an agenda by denying what is well-held among most in this community.  I don't think you're going to advance much on this line of calling black white or saying it's all grey.

BTW, you are fault-finding with my posts to the degree of obsurdity and contradiction.  You admit that Kzins fly what they have and take their chances implying that the ships are somehow inadequate for PvP (or are they hex-flippers?), yet claim the DF+ is flown as an effective PvP ship.  Further, you failed at first to understand what I was saying about tying up a ship, as of course I am referencing a PvP situation, and proceed to tell me, I assume, that AI can't be tied up or something or perhaps you mean the hex (who knows??  Really I don't know what you are saying and I suspect neither do you).  Then you realize your mistake, or something to that effect and quote the disengagement rule to me, failing of course to register in your agenda-addled mind the common practice of hurling drones at the opposition for a half-an-hour.  Whether engaged in genuine PvP or not,  that's tying up a ship

Finally, you abuse sense and logic by attempting to contradict an arguement that is solid and simple as mathematical proof.  I tried to make it as simple as possible so that we might all agree what is patently true, especially since you seemed to need a demonstration of the perfectly obvious.

Now, if you will remember, I never said that drone boat flyers are only flippers as was your original gripe with me, but that they avoid PvP. 

Look, I can't make it any simpler for you to understand.  If you don't get it, I can't explain it to you.  It's a question of defintiions.

As evidence for my arguements, I point to your own boy Gook's frustration with being a Kzin and being "experimented on" for adjusting mission times and hex-flipping abiliity.  If the flipping ability of Kzins were not at issue, then why all this hullabulloo over the years?  I guess everyone else was deluded and you're the sane one.  It's like you're speaking a foreign language here.  I don't think there has been an universal translator invented that is advanced enough to interpret utterances from a head shoved up the speaker's butt.  If you will kindly remove it and speak clearly into the receiver, perhaps we will all be able to understand exactly what it is you are tripping over your own lack of sense and command of standard English to say.

[KAT MRess]

The way I see it, you yourself have declined in your ability to comprehend what it is that I?m trying to say. This is evidenced by the fact that you no longer have any argument, only criticisms of someone else?s opinion. So here are my facts:

Fact: Yes I am trying to explain my point of view. In support of this I will REPEAT yet again your own statement.

"If it were true that droners sought out PvP, that would be a fine proposition, but let's not kid ourselves.  Droners are looking to flip hexes which means avoiding PvP as much as possible.  Nope, they can't have their cake and eat it too.?

Let?s break this down real simple. ?Droners are looking to flip hexes? That?s says it all right there. Droners want to flip hexes and nothing else.

?which means avoiding PvP as much as possible? This re-enforces the previous statement by confirming the alternate action is avoided. Since there seems to be only two actions being discussed, to avoid one means to engage in the other. This is the basis of the generalization.

Can you deny your own statement generalizes ALL droners are hex flippers by avoiding PvP?


Fact: Yes I admit Kzin fly what they are given, they don?t have a choice. The Kzin shiplist has been pared so much by limiting ?Bombardment? ships and large class ships. But does that that mean we fly only hex flippers? Hardly. Since they?ve been restricted in the last few servers how can we exclusively fly Droners?

Fact: Yes I would like to see Kzin ships improved. That is my agenda. Just like the Feds would like to see theirs improved, and the Roms theirs and so on. I do not deny it. Can you honestly say you DON?T have one yourself? Because if you don?t, you wouldn?t be arguing. In fact I wouldn?t expect any less of you, as everyone wants whats best for them and the community.

Fact: Yes I will take issue with any post (I have in the past, and I will continue to do so) with any post that spouts such a generalization and insult. But I will continue to do so using structured argument and not criticisms of a persons opinion.

I will argue your ?common knowledge? and ?common currency? of the D2. I am assuming that you mean Kzin are droners and ?hex-flippers? as you have never stated what it is you are referring to. Since this is the point of my contention I would ask that you clarify what that "common knowledge" is.

I still stand by my accusation that your generalization of Droners as ?hex-flippers? is inaccurate and insulting. This is the reason why any proposal you may have will meet with resistance from the Kzin. Any suggestion based on such misinformation would (and should) be questioned by anyone.

[FPF-DieHard]

. . . .I don't think there has been an universal translator invented that is advanced enough to interpret utterances from a head shoved up the speaker's butt  . . .

Thank you for the new sig quote!!!!! 

Karma to you!

[Lepton]

I have to admit that I laughed a bit and continue to chuckle over that one.  Goose, I'll reply to you later.  I'm going to have to really simplify it for you for you to get it.  BTW, I don't fly or advocate for any race.  I look for balance, equity, and dare I say justice.  Frankly, it's all you race-mongers that screw this game over.  If you people weren't so entrenched in your racial biases and attitudes, there would be lot more consensus on D2 issues.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Lepton just design your own server, that way you can have it like you want it.  If players like what you do it will be copied, if not maybe you will finally give it a rest, or at least rethink it.

I promise I WILL play on it just to see and try to keep an open mind. 

Your attitude has gone back to flamish behavior and while Die Hard may enjoy your remarks I find them very childish.  You claim to want to understand someone yet when they express themself you post this kind of BS, really makes you look like a troll instead of someone seeking answers via a civil debate.

[Lepton]

Lepton just design your own server, that way you can have it like you want it.  If players like what you do it will be copied, if not maybe you will finally give it a rest, or at least rethink it.

I promise I WILL play on it just to see and try to keep an open mind. 

Your attitude has gone back to flamish behavior and while Die Hard may enjoy your remarks I find them very childish.  You claim to want to understand someone yet when they express themself you post this kind of BS, really makes you look like a troll instead of someone seeking answers via a civil debate.

I can't have a civil debate with someone who will not acknowledge facts.  I well know that Kzins or those who fly droner ships don't only do hex-flipping.  That has never been in dispute.  What is clear is that those who fly those type of droner ships aren't flying them to be effective PvPers.  They may use them to good effect in that respect, but their function is for bull-rushing an addled AI.  Unfortunately, the Kzin are a special case as most of their ships have 4 or more drone racks.  To deny that there has been specific measures taken to curb them as Gook puts forth is to deny the obvious.  Fluf may be referenced at your leisure for his own resentment at being in the gun sights of the D2 community as a Kzin.

Goose is just pissed because he thinks I called him a hex-flipping pu**y so to speak and he thinks this is some d*ck measuring contest.  I'm sure he PvPs as do many others.  Who cares!!!  If the history of the D2 hasn't been to bring hex-flipping under some control, if the Kzins have not been the target of some of those controls, if the community were not reacting to an accurate perception of the Kzin tendency to hex-flip and the perception of drone-based ships as hex-flippers, then we all must have been living a delusion for the past 3 or 4 years.  So which is it?  A whole community of deluded individuals or an accurate tally of the often purposeful use of droner-bases ships as hex-flippers.  Your choice.

[KAT MRess]

You're right Chuut, not only is he incapable of carrying on a debate and ignoring basics fact that I laid out, but now the flamish behaviour is surfacing.

No point in carrying on as it is plain I won't get a straight answer or argument.

[Mog]

From what I can see, Lepton is about right in his assessment of the main role of drone ships. It's to kill ai, re Sockfoot's campaign guide. There are a number of people (nb NOT ALL - warsears springs to mind lol) who fly drone ships that do try to avoid pvp, because, as Sockfoot's campaign guide says, pvp is a waste of ai killing time.

So I'm not really sure what you're arguing about, Mress.

[el-Karnak]

Well, since everyone seems to be open-minded in this thread then I'm sure that without further ado y'all will be most pleased to concur most emphatically that the disengagement rule's banning time for ship destruction will be equal to the banning time for taco-belling.

Well done, y'all. 

[KAT MRess]

Simplified, my point is (because Mog is nice about asking):

Yes, drone ships CAN be used to flip hexes (they are not the only ships that can however).

Yes, the Kzin are exceedingly good at it.

But to generalize ALL Droners as nothing but hex flippers (by AVOIDING PvP) is blatantly wrong and insulting.

What would be even worse, is to bring about (or attempt to bring about) any change based on such a faulty supposition, will only hurt the community more.




BTW: Yes Karnak, that I do agree with. Defeat is defeat whether you blow up or run off.

[FPF-DieHard]

But to generalize ALL Droners as nothing but hex flippers (by AVOIDING PvP) is blatantly wrong and insulting.

To deny that the flaws of the D2 and SFC engine grossly favor drone ships is blantantly wrong and insulting.

[el-Karnak]

BTW: Yes Karnak, that I do agree with. Defeat is defeat whether you blow up or run off.

I believe that's all the non-hex flipping adept races need to hear.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

But to generalize ALL Droners as nothing but hex flippers (by AVOIDING PvP) is blatantly wrong and insulting.

To deny that the flaws of the D2 and SFC engine grossly favor drone ships is blantantly wrong and insulting.

with the disengagement rule hex flipping in ships not as well suited for p v p and with both sides having acess to drone boats on ALL recent servers except GW2, this is in my book a non-issue.

If you want to use your bishops only and I want to use my knights only or both my bishops and my knights, its not my fault that you don't use your knights.  Conversely its not your fault if I don't use my bishops.  As long as each has their role to play and each role has significant importance I'm happy, but don't try to take knights out of the game just because you don't like to use them.

[FPF-DieHard]

But to generalize ALL Droners as nothing but hex flippers (by AVOIDING PvP) is blatantly wrong and insulting.

To deny that the flaws of the D2 and SFC engine grossly favor drone ships is blantantly wrong and insulting.

with the disengagement rule hex flipping in ships not as well suited for p v p and with both sides having acess to drone boats on ALL recent servers except GW2, this is in my book a non-issue.

If you want to use your bishops only and I want to use my knights only or both my bishops and my knights, its not my fault that you don't use your knights.  Conversely its not your fault if I don't use my bishops.  As long as each has their role to play and each role has significant importance I'm happy, but don't try to take knights out of the game just because you don't like to use them.

Not every race has 'bishops."

My race has the best escorts in the game, I don't want them un-restrcited because I know they are unbalanced and the game is better off without them. 

The point that Lepton and I agree on is we feel this game should be more that a contest as to who can hit the Z key the fastest.  I know you agree with that to.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Not every race has 'bishops."

No but every side does.

[Mog]

Not every race has 'bishops."

No but every side does.

Agreed. Combined race shiplists please.

[FPF-DieHard]

Not every race has 'bishops."

No but every side does.

Agreed. Combined race shiplists please.

Yes, we all love servers that burp every time the economy cycles 

Allowing multiple accounts makes more technical sense, the server kit likes it better.