Topic: The Numbered Flamefest Aftermath.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I wouldn't think that you would push people about, so for me the distinction between these two types of players is a false distinction based on command and control and strategy. Both have strategic and situational awareness, but the captains are looking for something a bit more than an expedited hex-flip which to me is the unfortunate side of the so-called admirals in this case, those being more interested in strategy than gameplay.

I'd actually like to see it proved out that larger AI missions still favor droners.  Hasn't the whole increase in AI in the present set of EKK and NW missions been to delay droners, in part?   If 3v3 is more difficult for droners, why would not 4v4s or 5v5s be even more cumbersome?

Funny I always considered it a strategic game with tactical elements, if I wanted pure tactics I could go to Freelancer or one of the other games that tend to bore me after a few hours.

As for the 4 v 4 and 5 v 5, they quickly become a 2 v 4 or 2 v 5 after a few minutes as the drones pops a few ships, and then can let his ai clean up in quick and easy fashion.

[el-Karnak]

Karnak suggested using mission scripting to solve this problem, but Chutt got mad.

Loser!!     



Thanks for the great summary, Holocat!!

[KAT MRess]

If it were true that droners sought out PvP, that would be a fine proposition, but let's not kid ourselves.  Droners are looking to flip hexes which means avoiding PvP as much as possible. 

I have been monitoring the threads, leaving the debating to those better qualified than I, namely Chuut and Gook. However, I feel I must take issue with this statement. Not so much as the issue in question but more so with the line of thought being offered here.

The sense I get from this is that you are generalizing all droners into a "Avoid PvP and only flip hexes" group on the whole. Not only is it an unfair assessment, it is patently untrue. As another long time Kzin I can honestly say I have never avoided a fight. I have never run out of an area, just to find easier hex flipping grounds or retreated from a battle when I was drafted. I have retreated when I was grossly outmatched or badly damaged from the previous PvP. But I have always complied with the rules governing such.

When leading other captains into battle they have ALWAYS complied and never shied from a PvP conflict. In fact I know that most of them go looking for good PvP.

I have also acted as a RM and I have never dealt with a complaint (for members of KAT and KOTH) of such rule violations. In fact, when such actions were questioned, our members have always VOLUNTARILY self-destructed or paid the appropriate penalty.

Just because you fly a drone ship does NOT automatically mean you avoid PvP.

To base or form any argument on such a statement is flawed and renders any such argument useless. Your line of thought on why certain changes should be made is valid, but please do not base it on a perception. Especially one that can be proven to be wrong.

If it was not your intention to imply such a generalization, then please clarify for me what you did mean.

Is there something preventing us from having 4v4s and 5v5s? 

Unfortunately in D2 I believe there is an IP timing issue due to the nature of the scripting and structure of the servers used.

The intention of D3 was to correct these issues using improved code, resources and updated technolody within the IP protocols. If we could apply D3 methods to D2 that would improve it, that would be great and wonderful, but I fear it would involve an almost complete re-write of everything involved. Feel free to correct me on this.

[Lepton]

The generalization stands as a generalization that is common knowledge and common currency in the D2.  Otherwise, why would klinks be apt to fly a D5D and feds an NCD for hex-flipping?   Droner-based ships are intended for hex-flipping, that there are a preponderance of those ships in the Mirak shiplist is no fault of my own, and that that many Mirak are self-confessed flippers or support flipping as their most viable option is proof-positive.  There is no reason for flippers to leave an active area as drafting is spotty at best and inconsequential with fast mission times.   Avoidance of PvP is the best solution for a hex-flipper.  If you do not utilize that tactic, that is not my fault either.  I'd reference you to Gook's post of Sockfoot's manifesto as representative of the flipper's attitude.

Also, you mischaracterize my remarks.  Avoiding PvP is not the same as breaking server rules to do so.  One may easily avoid PvP legally.

There is nothing wrong with a generalization if it captures elements of truth that are pervasive and in evidence, but need not characterize every particular element it is applied to.  If one starts reasoning from all the particulars, it is easy to get bogged down in exceptions to the rule and contradictions.  For instance I might say that clouds are white, and they often are white, but not always so, yet still the statement is useful as an incapsulation of a general state of clouds.  This would be in opposition to a protracted treatise on refraction, laws of optics, and the principles that govern cloud coloration when they appear different colors due to ambient lighting conditions.  Perhaps not the best analogy, but it demonstrates a principle in that a generalization is useful and conditional truthful without always being true.

[el-Karnak]

All right, let's get real here on the PvP vs. Hex flipping issues.  No Kzin, Klink or Fed droner is ever going to convince me that they don't avoid PvP from time to time.  It's not something to be ashamed of. It's simply good tactics.

Let's use the Russo-German war of 1941 to 1945 as an analogy to the Dynaverse. On one side you have the "Jousters", the Germans. These guys are so good at "PvP" that even when out-numbered the Boche can beat the Russians. Even when they have inferior tanks they did it. The fact is that the old Communists of the now defunct Soviet Union were so embarassed about their performance in WW2 that  they had to keep the actual casualties figures of that war a state secret until the fall of Communism in 1991.  It is simple testament to how badly the Germans could wump them:  30 Million in total or roughly 18% of the USSR's population in early 1940s.  Makes you wonder what the planet would look like if Hitler actually listened to his OKW staff, don't it? Or, if FDR did not ignore the howls of many in the US about giving away so much free weaponry and supplies to the USSR through Lend-Lease acts?    So, it's in the Germans best interest to get the enemy in a PvP lock-down whenever they can.

On the other side, you have the Russians, who are the hex flippers. Last thing they want to do is get entangled with the Germans in a face-to-face battle. Much like what the Allied powers finally figured out with Napoleon at the Battle of Liepzig in 1813, the Russians want to negate superior enemy tactics by avoiding a head-to-head fight and just swarming around the enemy with vastly out-numbering forces to cut off their LOS; otherwise, they are facing another Austerlitz(1805) or Borodino(1812) or Kiev in 1941 or Kharkov in 1943.  So,  as was done in Stalingrad, the hex flippers are going to let the enemy have the target hex but get bogged down holding it, while the other hex flippers use overwhelming numbers to swarm around the target hex and surrond it and cut off the enemy's LOS.

In conclusion, in a real war, if the PvPers have similar numbers or are only slightly out-numbered, then they will win hands-down unless some Hitler-like nut-case royally screws it up (ie. Goering/Hitler in 1940 Battle of Britain, Hitler delaying Operation Typhoon, the march on Moscow, 2 months too late in 1941).  The disengagement rule has striven to bring some of this reality into the SFC game. Otherwise, you truly are playing a pure poppy-cock fantasy that never has a chance of coming true sometime in this millenium (ie. Y2000 to Y2999), a few centuries from now, somewhere out there.

[KAT MRess]

The generalization stands as a generalization that is common knowledge and common currency in the D2.

This would be news to me as I've spent lots of time in PvP and others in the two main fleets have spent more time than me doing the same.

Also, you mischaracterize my remarks.  Avoiding PvP is not the same as breaking server rules to do so.  One may easily avoid PvP legally.

These comments were intended as proof that droners, ergo mirak, by your generalization, are not just hexflippers.

There is nothing wrong with a generalization if it captures elements of truth that are pervasive and in evidence, but need not characterize every particular element it is applied to.  If one starts reasoning from all the particulars, it is easy to get bogged down in exceptions to the rule and contradictions.  For instance I might say that clouds are white, and they often are white, but not always so, yet still the statement is useful as an incapsulation of a general state of clouds.  This would be in opposition to a protracted treatise on refraction, laws of optics, and the principles that govern cloud coloration when they appear different colors due to ambient lighting conditions.  Perhaps not the best analogy, but it demonstrates a principle in that a generalization is useful and conditional truthful without always being true.

There is everything wrong with such a generalization as such. Especially when it blatantly ignores the whole truth. Making a generalization based on only half the facts is as faulty as having wrong facts.

Your analogy works better than you think. No not all clouds are white, quite often that is the case. You just generalized that clouds are all white, but concede that is not always true. To that end, you cannot make any arguments, theories or statments of fact about clouds in general based on your concession. Only WHITE clouds.

The same applies here. You are generalizing that ALL droner pilots are hex-flippers. This statement blatantly ignores the fact that many "Droner" pilots are good PvP players and not merely hex-flippers. My statements are offered as proof that the percentage of skilled PvP "Droner" pilots are vastly larger than you are portraying. So much so that they fall into the same category as the "White cloud" analogy. As a result, your generalization blatantly ignores the large number of pilots that make the generalization invalid. The generalization only applies to droner pilots assigned to Hex-flip duty, a duty I might add, that has a place, and is utilized, in EVERY race.

You cannot generalize droners as Hex flip only just the same as you cannot generalize ESG as a defensive only weapon, or Hydrans as a fighter only race.

I am merely trying to point out that while droners do excel at hex flipping, you cannot generalize them as ONLY hex flippers.

[Lepton]

I never said drone-users were flippers only.  I said they avoid PvP.  That is not the same thing, as avoiding PvP is a real and only available tactic to a hex-flipper.  You made that assumption, not I.

Also while I am no philosopher, I think we can all basically concede that one cannot found any epistemology upon a sum total of particular instances that are all relative, temporary, and conditional in nature.  At some point, we must resort to generalization and abstraction or knowledge itself becomes impossible, therefore my arguement stands.

[el-Karnak]

I never said drone-users were flippers only.  I said they avoid PvP.  That is not the same thing, as avoiding PvP is a real and only available tactic to a hex-flipper.  You made that assumption, not I.

[KAT MRess]

I never said drone-users were flippers only.  I said they avoid PvP.  That is not the same thing, as avoiding PvP is a real and only available tactic to a hex-flipper.  You made that assumption, not I.

No assumption was made, your previous post stated quite clearly that:
"If it were true that droners sought out PvP, that would be a fine proposition, but let's not kid ourselves.  Droners are looking to flip hexes which means avoiding PvP as much as possible.  Nope, they can't have their cake and eat it too."

Since this whole balancing debate has been "PvP vs Hex flipping" (Due to "droners" being able to flip hexes at a superior level) it is quite clear by your statement that you think Droners are nothing more than hexflippers due to their avoiding PvP.

Also while I am no philosopher, I think we can all basically concede that one cannot found any epistemology upon a sum total of particular instances that are all relative, temporary, and conditional in nature.  At some point, we must resort to generalization and abstraction or knowledge itself becomes impossible, therefore my arguement stands.

While it does stand to reason that one cannot generalize due to variences in nature, generalization does occur when there is lack of valid data or concensus.

However, by that reason this instance or debate does not fall into that category as we have a mulitude of participants all trying to input valid data and reach a concensus.

Therefor, your agrument does not stand due to the fact:

1) There are many soucres of vaild data trying to co-operate in reaching an informed opinion or standard.

2) The majority of Droners on D2 do NOT avoid PvP.

[Kroma BaSyl]

2) The majority of Droners on D2 do NOT avoid PvP.

Well they do against me, but that's just because you are a bunch of pussies. ;-)

[Lepton]

2) The majority of Droners on D2 do NOT avoid PvP.

Well they do against me, but that's just because you are a bunch of pussies. ;-)

BOOYA!!

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I would then submit that light cruisers tend to avoid p v p with Heavies, Heavies with BCHs, etc.

Sure sometimes you avoid P v P when you know a superior P v P ship is in the nex waiting.......duh.  The drone boats being inferior to many P v P ships have done this, but they have also been known to grab a wingman and charge in.  Drone boats can be incredibly good wingmen for some larger ships, and after faster drones come out 2 drone boats can be very effective in P v P; even more so than some line combos.

So if I'm in a drone boat all alone in an area where I know a CCZ or such ship is working, sure I wont go looking to grab him in a P v P.  And unless I have a BCH of my own I wouldn't consider it in a line ship either.  Nor would I think anything less of anyother pilot for doing the same.  On SSII I was flying the L-BCHT and I had CCZs that wouldn't come out of nebulas to fight me, did I consider them any lesser for it, hell no!, I thought here is a pilot with a brain that works.  The same for any droneboats that avoided me. 

I remember the ISC getting upset when the Gorn were ordered not to engage in P v P on Storm Season I.  The Gorn were being smart in a strategic sense and not playing to their enemies strength, having learned better after numerous P v P defeats.  So many of them took ships that were better at turning out faster missions or running Small boat Big boat combos, was there something wrong with this?

And while we all like to salute the captain who loses his ship putting up a good fight vs overwhelming odds, as its the politically correct thing to do; I admire his guts but have to shake my head and wonder how much he had to drink before that mission.

I still contend that the way alliances are set there are usually enough pilots who can and do fly drone ships on both sides of the field to create a balance when you take all allied races into consideration, there are usually a good balance of those seeking P v P in larger "non-hexflippers" to keep each other occupied as well.  The disengagement rule allows for both groups to have their importance, so I see no need to make special penaltys or disadvantages beyond what we already have in place, which seems to me to work fine and better than what we had previously.

I suggest anyone who thinks things haven't gone far enough in either direction to put up their own server the way they like it.  I'd be willing to give it a try.....honestly.  However, I think the numbers and PMs to the admin will show for themselves how popular this might be.

[Gook]

LOL I love the idea the Kzin or droners avoid PvP, utter balderdash!

I only ever run when there is no point at all, the opponent is to big or to skilled or both.

Sometimes the object will be to flip faster, rather than engage in PvP (Hail Mary) for instance.

The problem is usually, when I play, having enough opponents, the last time I played when there were plenty of opponents in CW6 I had a good tallly (for me) below is an extract from my report on that server dealing with my personal PvP, oh and I was flying a DWD for most of it (solo)

My personal PvP tally was 24. 10 BCFs ,1BCG,4 CLCs,3DWDs,1PFLP,1,NVS,the rest assorted drone cruisers. Many more limped off the board ruing the day they asked me to leave the area  because I "only" had a  DWD

I was killed (blown up13) times amongst my vanquishers were ACE, 9thGhis,  Lucky, 1AF Maralborough man,  TOC-Bearslayer, and many more. All great games and if I have forgotten to mention you I apologise. I also had to leave with battle damage on many more occasions.

[Kroma BaSyl]

Sometimes the object will be to flip faster, rather than engage in PvP (Hail Mary) for instance.

Which is exactly why we have the disengagement rule.

[Gook]

Sometimes the object will be to flip faster, rather than engage in PvP (Hail Mary) for instance.

Which is exactly why we have the disengagement rule.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Sometimes the object will be to flip faster, rather than engage in PvP (Hail Mary) for instance.

Which is exactly why we have the disengagement rule.

hate to tell you this Gook, but I definately agree with Kroma here, unless I'm reading your banghead differently from what you intended.

[el-Karnak]

Sometimes the object will be to flip faster, rather than engage in PvP (Hail Mary) for instance.

Which is exactly why we have the disengagement rule.

Gook is pretty good at reinforcing the arguments in favor of the disengagement rule.

[FPF-DieHard]

Sometimes the object will be to flip faster, rather than engage in PvP (Hail Mary) for instance.

Which is exactly why we have the disengagement rule.

Gook is pretty good at reinforcing the arguments in favor of the disengagement rule.

<Snicker>

[Gook]

Sometimes the object will be to flip faster, rather than engage in PvP (Hail Mary) for instance.

Which is exactly why we have the disengagement rule.

Gook is pretty good at reinforcing the arguments in favor of the disengagement rule.

<Snicker>

What has the disenagement rule got to do with the accusation that droners don't like PvP? Nothing so why bring it up. It is not a panacea for all, and certainly nothing to do with the point under discussion, so the heads are for frustration at a totally pointless mantra.

I fail to see what the relevance of the example quoted has to do with the disengagement rule, which was in place at the time of the example, and there is nothing wrong or cheesy in going for a VC the most efficient way.

[Kroma BaSyl]

What has the disenagement rule got to do with the accusation that droners don't like PvP? Nothing so why bring it up. It is not a panacea for all, and certainly nothing to do with the point under discussion, so the heads are for frustration at a totally pointless mantra.

I fail to see what the relevance of the example quoted has to do with the disengagement rule, which was in place at the time of the example, and there is nothing wrong or cheesy in going for a VC the most efficient way.

There is nothing wrong with going for the VC in the most efficent way, never was wrong. Just made the game less fun for those that don't like the hex flip marathon, thus we now have the disengagement rule that gives both styles of game their place. Also "I" have never said that droners don't "like" PvP, I have had tons of great PvP with and against droners. However, on servers without the disengagement rule in place, I have had players, even some that I know like PvP, avoid it so that they could get back to the more effecient method of aquiring the VC.

You made the statement:

LOL I love the idea the Kzin or droners avoid PvP, utter balderdash!

Which says nothing about "liking", just avoiding. It is simply not balderdash that hex flippers avoid PvP when trying to take territory in the most effiecent manner possible, there is also nothing wrong with that. Heck some of my best friends are droners, I even walk in their parade to show support.