Topic: Our solar system may be unique...

[oldmanken]

From CNN...
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/08/05/space.planets.reut/index.html

Solar system may be one of a kind
Thursday, August 5, 2004 Posted: 1553 GMT (2353 HKT)

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- Our solar system may be unique after all, despite the discovery of at least 120 other systems with planets, astronomers said on Wednesday.

All the other solar systems that have been found have big, gassy planets circling too close to their stars to allow them to be anything like Earth or its fellow planets, the British and U.S.-based researchers said.

If that is the case, Earth-like planets will be very rare, the astronomers write in the latest issue of the Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society.

"Maybe these other extrasolar systems ... contain only the giant planets," said Mario Livio of the Space Telescope Science Institute in Baltimore.

Livio and colleagues took a close look at what is known about the other planetary systems that have been discovered.

"In (our) solar system the orbits are very circular. Most of the giant planets observed in extrasolar systems have very elliptical orbits," Livio said in a telephone interview.

This could mean that astronomers have been wrong in assuming that all planets formed in basically the same way.

Livio said most experts thought that planets formed out of dust. "This dust coagulates and forms small rocks and the rocks combine and form small bodies and then those bodies form things like Earths," he said.

"The Earths collect and accrete gas and then they form giant planets like Jupiter. That is one model."

But so far no one has found a planet outside our solar system that looks like it formed that way.

"Then there is a second model that has been suggested specifically for the formation of giant planets like Jupiter. You start with a gas disk and this disk becomes unstable and it breaks up into large clumps and those clumps are the things that form giant planets," Livio said.

"In that model it is not obvious at all how planets like Earth may have formed."

It could be our solar system formed in the first way and most of the others formed in the second way, Livio said.

But he said it is hard to tell as planets outside this solar system can only be detected through indirect observation and these methods are not able to detect smaller planets like Earth.

Either way, it is time to start thinking about the possibility that our system is unique or at least unusual, Livio said.

What has been seen up to now does not bode well for the main purpose of seeking other planets -- finding life outside our solar system.

"If the orbit is very elliptical then the planet may come very close to its sun at some point and that doesn't appear to be very healthy for life," Livio said.

Quite interesting.  Obviously they are making assumptions based on limited data, but very interesting none the less.

[Core]

IMHO these pepole need to take a deep breath of fresh air and think on how to improve detection methods and not jump to conclusions after 130 systems the last time i checked their were a tad bit more then that number out their besides there may be beater planets then then earth planets out their hell how many times they jumped to conclusions before and it turn out to be very wrong besides until we our selfs wont get out their we will never find out how many habitable or otherwise planets are out their OK fine may be then the Terran system is special in its configuration but the universe is any thing if not full of surprises so IMO we can take this little statement with a very large grain of salt 

[oldmanken]

Oh, I don't necessarily agree with them.  I actually think they are a tad short sighted.  That said, they are basing their opinion of a limited data set and have said as much.

[Core]

tad short sided hell their blind if they say that to the general public

[J. Carney]

Core,

THese men are paid to put out theories. If they don't say something, then they stop getting money and then you won't hear anything. Honestly, if they find out that they are wrong, they can always change thier opinions.

Go burn one and ge a shot of 90 proof and cool down... it'll be OK.

[Clark Kent]

Astronomers have more in common with astrologers than scientists, IMHO

[mathguy]

I'm not so sure that these scientists are wrong....

Although we all appreciate Sci-Fi, play with SFC, etc..., reality may actually be quite different that what we imagine it to be. 

For those interested, there are some good books (written by credible scientists) which support these ideas. Off the top of my head, I don't have the authors...but you can do an Amazon search and find the books.

"Rare Earth"
"The Privileged Planet"


mathguy

[Core]

lets just wait another decade or tow before even considering listening to them

BTW its only 120 systems lets wait until they reach 1000 systems before even thinking on something like this
come on 120 and they think we are special 120 out of how many ?

and don't make me check the latest numbers

[Clark Kent]

The problem with science as most know it is that it's all based on layers of assumptions.  I'm not saying there are scores of worlds in the systems surrounding us, but I will say that we don't know what's out there.  The tech that is out there for identifying planets is precarious at best.  The fact is that we still haven't done an adequate job of mapping our own solar system, let alone the ones light years away.  For all we know the systems that have been identified as having planets might not even have planets at all (even if that possibility is unlikely).  
The point is that what's out there is unknown.  I would also add that it might be possible for planets in solar systems to be formed in different ways, and that out of say 5 planets in a system 4 were formed in different ways from each other and in ways we haven't envisioned yet.  I dislike the idea of trying to work everything down to one or two explanations when there are so many unknowns involved.

[Alidar Jarok]

Personally, I think there is so much stuff in the Universe that the odds that other life doesn't exist somewhere is extremely unlikely.  Now the odds of two different forms of life meeting each other is a completely different matter...

[J. Carney]

Personally, I think there is so much stuff in the Universe that the odds that other life doesn't exist somewhere is extremely unlikely.  Now the odds of two different forms of life meeting each other is a completely different matter...

It can't be any greater than the odds of us not blowing ourselves to Kingdom Come over the last 50 years...

It'll happen, in time.

[E_Look]

Gents, especially Core and CK,

It is very often correct that science is based on layers of assumptions.  This is most true in biology and cosmology, for it is in these two areas that we really have the least amount of established and establishable data.  Here, we as scientists are forced to make guesses and often they aren't as good as we like them to be.

Having said that, even the notion of extrasolar planets are based on layers of guesses.  You can't directly see a planet outside of our system with any technique we now have.  However, based on perturbations of light intensities, etc., we can make inferences.

Now I'm not saying they're not there; I'm just saying that depending on the background and bent of the interpreter, the data can say either (remember, there's "... lies, damned lies, and statistics... ", and in that order) thing, for it's interpretable.

Are we shortsighted for saying there are no earthlike extrasolar planets?  Maybe, but it's still pretty optimistic to even claim there are any planets outside of here.  We really don't have instruments capable of the kind of resolution that would allow us to state in black and white before a Federal judge with a hostile jury that there are beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are extrasolar planets (the same for black holes, etc.), let alone earthlike ones!

Be vewwwwy careful of what those pundits say in popular science articles; they often either don't know what they are talking about or they have a bias all their own.  Ursula K. LeGuin once wrote what sounded like a very sound anthropologicial (NON-fiction!!) article in Analog (I believe it was... boy it's been a long time since they've been around).  It turned out on further analysis to be a soapbox for economic and racial arguments.

Unfortunately, we who are actual and hardheaded scientists are not too understandable nor inspiring, even if what we know is much closer to the truth.

(Do your own research, and don't trust popular sources all that much, ESPECIALLY the internet.)

[Stormbringer]

The article appears  to be factually incorrect. There are three examples of planetary systems with the gas giants in the outer boundaries. also detection methods thus far pretty much lake  the resolution to find small worlds. No wonder all they find is the big guys. New telescopes capable of finding terrestrial planets are being built now. I expect the view in the article to be obsolete very quickly.

[Clark Kent]

Gents, especially Core and CK,

It is very often correct that science is based on layers of assumptions....

I'm sorry if I came off the wrong way.  All I can state as fact is a whole host of unknowns, and the lack of serious evidence either way in the area of astrology, er...I mean astronomy.
Personally, i feel that this galaxy let alone this universe is too big to not have life like ours else where.  As to how plentiful that life may be, I have no clue.  Could be just one other planet in our galaxy capable of supporting human life.  Could be a thousand, could be more.  Could have been one or more, or perhaps one or more are still to be developed in the far future.  In the end, I just plain don't know, and don't buy that others know as fact either.

[Grand Master of Shadows NCC37385]

The is other lifeforms out there puny Earthlings. Just wait until next Thursday when our...um, their, ships.....

Oh Dammit! The Big Giant Head is gonna be mad....

Just forget that I said anything! 

[mathguy]

In order to obtain an understanding of the issue at hand, you must read relevant material (both sides of the story) written by SCIENTISTS. Then, you can begin to analyze, form opinions, etc....

Otherwise, rampant speculations, opinions without facts, etc...run wild! 

On a side note....what really happened at Roswell!? 


mathguy

[Core]

i just wanted to say that 120 systems is a tad small number for a galaxy to go saying that M-class planets are rear especially without better equipment with better resolution

besides IMHO its a tad early to be jumping to any sort of conclusions thats all

[J. Carney]

i just wanted to say that 120 systems is a tad small number for a galaxy to go saying that M-class planets are rear especially without better equipment with better resolution

besides IMHO its a tad early to be jumping to any sort of conclusions thats all

M-class...?

Core, you are getting a little weird with that statement. You wouldn't happen to bewearing a Starfleet uniform wile typing that, would you?

Seriously, now, like I said- a scientest works to make RESULTS/b]. Even Stephen Hawking recended his theory on black holesafter 20 years! This doen't mean that he was right EITHER time, just that what he says is what the evidence supports at the time.

Once again, if they don't produce results, their backers don't produce money. THey have to say something to keep getting paied to look!

[_SSCF_Hooch]

Sorry if this irritates some of you (I mean that)

Or, "In the beginning God..."

[J. Carney]

Sorry if this irritates some of you (I mean that)

Or, "In the beginning God..."

It doesn't irritate me at all, Hooch, after all it's the truth.

I am just of the opinion that God made space and all that fills it as more than just something that people were meant to look at 'out the window' and never to get to go and play in, or to find playmates in for that matter.

God spoke and the universe came into being, and something inside me just nsggs at me to believe that He didn't do all that talking just to hear the sound of His voice. He made so much out there, and it is vanity and pride on behalf of humanity to believe that it was all just window dressing for our enjoyment.

Who's to say that the 'other sheep' the Bible speaks of are not swimming in someplace like Europa's under-ice oceans or breathing methane on a planet like Titan?

We may never know, but it will be a shame if we are really alone.