Topic: Thank you Gook

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I wanted to express my appreciation of the discussions that you started with regards to several issues.  I found the discussions quite satisfying for the most part where views and points were exchanged, and some interesting new ideas presented as well as some older ones revived for consideration. 

I don't agree with many of the views held on several of the issues, yours as well as others, but I definately benefitted from hearing them and being forced to think about many of my beliefs that I held before the discussions.  Some of my views I have even modified, due to the points made by several of our community memebers here,

Don't let anyone bother you with comments of hidden agendas and such, the threads are what they are and people can take and leave ideas as they wish as you so properly stated.  Thankyou for providing the opportunity for all to see and benefit from these discussions, and if they walk away with nothing for them they either missed a great opportunity due to close-mindedness, already had all the anwers perfect and should be worshipped as Dyna gods, or just didn't take the time to see what was available here. 

I'm not saying that they needed to change any of their views to have benefitted, but the opportunity to re-examine them, even if not changing them, and seeing the views of others should have been educational enough to make the endevour worthwhile.  This is true of even those who have looked at these same issues very carefully in the past and gone to great lengths to improve the game so that it can be the most entertaining for all involved.   Some of these folks might have felt like they already had the answers, and maybe they did, but there is a lot of new food for thought that even they might find a snack in.

Again Gook thank you very much.

P.S.  Thank all the rest of you who have participated in these discussions as well, without your comments pro and con, there would have been little benefit to them.  And thanks for keeping a very good civility to the discussions.

[C-Los]

Yes indeed     Sir Gooky...

Chutt said it all and very well I might add !

Oh...I still say, "Scratch Everything And Lets Start Over"

 

[Capt Jeff]

Yes, Thanks Gook for the interesting topics for debate.

It was often enlightening (or even amuzing) to see some people's responses   

[Sirgod]

I concure. I've learned once again through Gooks elocution that once again, everything Is Fluff's fault, and that J'inn will soon be suing. 

J/K guys, I did appreciate the time Gook put into this.

Stephen

[Lepton]

The agenda is transparent and continues to be.  The "discussions" and his agenda have split the community more than it was.  Nothing gained.  What Gook has failed to understand at every turn is that hex-flipping is still the dominant form of play on the D2.  PvP still takes a back seat to this fundamental function.  The history of the D2 has been to try to balance hex-flipping abilities and provide a meaningful outcome for PvP.  Everybody's playing style is hex-flipping even the bloke running around in a DN or a BB.  His perception of hex-flipping is tainted by the Kzins being branded as hex-flippers when in fact everyone is trying to run fast mission times although I loathe such a trend. 

He believes somehow that hex-flippers (read as Kzins and drone variant flyers) are being hurt by the supposed current state of affairs, when just the opposite has been true.  Those who choose not to fly "hex-flipping ships" have been at a disadvantage all along and it has been the design of the D2's evolution to curtail that imbalance.  People who do not fly "hex-flippers" are not by default PvP only players.  They do as much flipping as the next guys as the D2 is 90% AI missions.  They merely want some parity with folks who fly these funky ships that take advantage of an AI insufficient in every manner in dealing with seeking weapons especially drones.  This entire discussion would be moot if the AI weren't so irretrieveable stupid in this area and if AI mission did not make up the lion's share of D2 missions.

All other issues of deepstriking and fleeting, etc aside, there has been a fundamental failure to recognize that most folks do not want to be strictly hex-flippers and to force them into that mould is crappy.  No one wants to deny flippers from running their little overdroning tactics on helpless AI (their playing style), but don't expect to be admired for it or to benefit in mission times for it, while others actually try to play the game.  Everyone is trying to flip hexes, but they are doing it in a more "honorable" way to be frank.   Flippers will always be flippers and will probably always have better mission times, but don't force other folks to have to play your game if they don't wish to.

[KAT J'inn]

Well I for one am horrified.  Shocked, horrified, and yes . . . somewhat disgusted.

Did Gook screw anyone over in any of his posts?   NO!

Did he bill per word?   NO!

Did he extort?  NO!

Did he at least make a buck?    NOOOOOOOOO!


<sigh>

I hate to be negative, but on behalf of the International Brotherhood of Lawyers I simply must ask for his immediate lifetime banning.   

Sheesh he might as well start giving candy to babies.   YECCH!


DISGUSTING!

I have to go wash my hands now, I feel dirty just talking about you know who.

[Sirgod]

I like flipping hexes, It keeps Mog and Warsears off my A$$.

Stephen

[Julin Eurthyr]

I have to agree.

The chance to air out concerns, and attempt to work things out, in a polite and civil manner, should be welcome here and utilized to the fullest.

Whether I agree with the issue / complaint or not.  No matter how "mad" I may seem about the dicsussion.  As long as things are balanced in the end, it works.

Thank you for yet another chance to examine what we've done to this point...

Lepton:
You realize, every rule created or changed to this date was done by someone with an agenda, whether they kept it hidden or stated it overtly.  We know your agenda, which is to make a D2 that is not reliant on anti-AI hex flipping...

[FPF-DieHard]

Lepton:
You realize, every rule created or changed to this date was done by someone with an agenda, whether they kept it hidden or stated it overtly.  We know your agenda, which is to make a D2 that is not reliant on anti-AI hex flipping...

In defense of Lepton, he puts up no pretense.

[Lepton]

I have to agree.

The chance to air out concerns, and attempt to work things out, in a polite and civil manner, should be welcome here and utilized to the fullest.

Whether I agree with the issue / complaint or not.  No matter how "mad" I may seem about the dicsussion.  As long as things are balanced in the end, it works.

Thank you for yet another chance to examine what we've done to this point...

Lepton:
You realize, every rule created or changed to this date was done by someone with an agenda, whether they kept it hidden or stated it overtly.  We know your agenda, which is to make a D2 that is not reliant on anti-AI hex flipping...

I think we need to separate "agenda" from having a purpose.  In a connotative sense, having an agenda means having a self-serving interest.  The development of the D2 has been purposeful in providing balance and enhanced gameplay.  Those who lobbied for those changes did not have an agenda as they were not exclusively serving their own interests but that of the community.  Pushing hex-flipping is rolling back all the positive changes that have come so far.  That is an agenda.

I'm interested in fairness and equality in this game.  That is my agenda if that can be called an agenda. There are many things I dislike about the D2, and I think people would be far happier with another format, but that is their decision,

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Just for the record Lepton, I do appreciate your contributions to the threads for their informational content and point of view, I don't condone your tone on many of your posts, but I do believe your message is important and definately worthy of long consideration.  You won't find me disagreeing with you as often as you might think on some areas.  But I don't want to see what I look at as a strategic game with tactical elemets devolve into a trench warfare style game on every server, where the outcome is determined by the shiplist more than by the strategy. 

I think hex-fliiping and p v p both have roles to play if the game is to reach its full potential, and agree that in the past hex-flipping likely had too much effect compared to p v p.  The advent of the disengagement rule, and the solving of the patrol bug have gone a long way in rectifying this situation.  Is it enough?  that is still open for debate, and I suggest that from this point on we take baby steps in achieving what will be percieved by most as the best combination, with occasional servers emphasizing greater leaps one way or the other for variety. We should also allow those with more extreme views on both sides to have setups like they enjoy the most occassionally.

Just wanted to clarify my position so that you wouldn't get the false impression that I disagreed on all aspects of your posting, although it might seem so due to my opposition to some of your ideas and your tone.

[el-Karnak]

IMHO, everyone has an agenda in these issues. Everyone can only reach out so far in flexibility before the inevitable re-trenchment into comfortable ideas.  Only when every race is mutually dissatisfied can we be assured some kind of balanced has been achieved.  But, this never happens in this fantasy game much like the same political game is played in that other fantasy game played on Capitol Hill.

[TotensBurntCorpse]

In the end the game is outta the box a hex flipping game.....

BUT

Since we have as a group decided to forgo this feature for the most part and instill victory conditions and roleplaying threads to drive what hexes are flipped, the game has evolved to be greater than it sum of programming.

With new missions made, maps made, new ships made, campaign threads etc...

The game is no longer just about flipping hexes, its about teamwork.  A lone set of pilots can chew up alot of hexes but they will no longer win campaigns.

Goals and Objectives have taken over our gaming.  Now we can say hex munchers are still welcome, PvP players are still welcome, but both styles of play have to work hand in hand to win a campaign now.

All in all IMHO this is a far better evolution of the game, where we have exceeded the sum of the programming.

[el-Karnak]

Just y'all remember it's only a game:

"We want you to be proud of what you have done. We want you to continue to serve in government, if that is your wish. Always give your best, never get discouraged, never be petty; always remember, others may hate you, but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them, and then you destroy yourself."

--Richard Nixon, final farewell speech to his staff (Aug. 10, 1974)

Anyone taking the posts in any gaming forum too seriously, the issues of any game mechanic too intransigently, and basically getting too sensitive about the game in general. Needs to take a break.

*actual serious post* 

[Durin]

intransigently

Uhuhuhuuhhuh  he said intransigently  uhuhuhuhhuhuh  mmmm yeah

[likkerpig]

intransigently

Uhuhuhuuhhuh  he said intransigently  uhuhuhuhhuhuh  mmmm yeah

Ain't thet when gramma can't contol her poopin'?

[Kroma BaSyl]

In the end the game is outta the box a hex flipping game.....

BUT

Since we have as a group decided to forgo this feature for the most part and instill victory conditions and roleplaying threads to drive what hexes are flipped, the game has evolved to be greater than it sum of programming.

With new missions made, maps made, new ships made, campaign threads etc...

The game is no longer just about flipping hexes, its about teamwork.  A lone set of pilots can chew up alot of hexes but they will no longer win campaigns.

Goals and Objectives have taken over our gaming.  Now we can say hex munchers are still welcome, PvP players are still welcome, but both styles of play have to work hand in hand to win a campaign now.

All in all IMHO this is a far better evolution of the game, where we have exceeded the sum of the programming.

Going to frame that one.

[FPF-Wanderer]

In the end the game is outta the box a hex flipping game.....

BUT

Since we have as a group decided to forgo this feature for the most part and instill victory conditions and roleplaying threads to drive what hexes are flipped, the game has evolved to be greater than it sum of programming.

With new missions made, maps made, new ships made, campaign threads etc...

The game is no longer just about flipping hexes, its about teamwork.  A lone set of pilots can chew up alot of hexes but they will no longer win campaigns.

Goals and Objectives have taken over our gaming.  Now we can say hex munchers are still welcome, PvP players are still welcome, but both styles of play have to work hand in hand to win a campaign now.

All in all IMHO this is a far better evolution of the game, where we have exceeded the sum of the programming.

Going to frame that one.

I totally concur.  Nice summary of what it's really all about, Toten. 

[KBFLordKrueg]

In the end the game is outta the box a hex flipping game.....

BUT

Since we have as a group decided to forgo this feature for the most part and instill victory conditions and roleplaying threads to drive what hexes are flipped, the game has evolved to be greater than it sum of programming.

With new missions made, maps made, new ships made, campaign threads etc...

The game is no longer just about flipping hexes, its about teamwork.  A lone set of pilots can chew up alot of hexes but they will no longer win campaigns.

Goals and Objectives have taken over our gaming.  Now we can say hex munchers are still welcome, PvP players are still welcome, but both styles of play have to work hand in hand to win a campaign now.

All in all IMHO this is a far better evolution of the game, where we have exceeded the sum of the programming.

Going to frame that one.

I totally concur.  Nice summary of what it's really all about, Toten. 

I think RDSL2 was an outstanding example of what you're pointing out here, Toten.
And I agree.

[TotensBurntCorpse]

In my memory some of the most fun servers have been those that have dual map and player objectives for victory conditions.

Ship restrictions have also been a good thing in my mind since heavy iron is supposed to be rare and special.  But with restrictions it is not uber expensive so anyone can play the heavies.

A great example I could think of also was in RDSL, where skull made an innovative leap and made up a dummy account with the loknar ship in it.

In that way anyone could log on to fly the heavy, she was shared amongst people.  All in all a nice way to let people fly them.

To make it more fair though I would suggest that no VCs be applied to the heavy, but each race be given a max number of heavies that can be online at one time.  That way anyone can fly one for a time without fear of loss hurting your team for VC points.

Lately on servers I see alot of "such n such a person should get it because they fly them well", to me this defeats some of the fun.

I say make em and BCs the same price, give it a cap of say 1 DN to 3 BCs online at a time per race, and if they lose the ship the race can immediately buy another, but keep in the disengagement rules.  But apply them to the ships not the players for heavies only.  Ie player Joe dies in 5,5 in a DN, he cannot come back for 5 turns or so, BUT player Jane cannot bring the DN she just bought back into 5,5 for 5 turns either.