Topic: Last one you will be glad to hear

[SPQR Renegade]

The only fleet I have ever been successful with is the PFT fleet, and only if the tenders did not need to engage. Maybe it's just poor flying on my part, but any time there has been a second or third ship in my squadron, it's going to die, and soon.

Keeping your wingmen in formation is near to impossible if the enemy closes range.
Power management means poping from ship to ship to enable or disable phaser re-charging.
Multiple weapon types means poping from ship to ship telling them to fire ONE plas-S, not the Fs, and not the phasers.
AIs seem to love t-bombing targets, lowering shields on ships that are all too fragile. They also have a tendency to drop t-bombs on their cloaked allies, just before the bad guy overruns them. All bad.
You can choose to fly without t-bombs, but that leaves you with no NSM or SS.
AIs love to WW at the wrong time, splitting them from the group and leaving them volnurable.
Cloaked AI will move at best speed to maintain formation, meaning they're weapons will not recharge, unless the entire fleet fleet moves at minimum speed.

Some of these items affect all races equally, some do not.

[FireSoul]

I personally dislike flying with AI fleet wingmen, as I consider myself a Captain, not a Commodore. However, if I face a player with a fleet, MUST I also fly fleets to be able to compete?!

.. hence the problem.


EDIT: *AI* Wingmen in my own fleet. Sorry for any possible confusion.

[el-Karnak]

Fleets allowed according to SFB CnC. <--- That's what I want to see.

BONK!!!  LEPTON!! WOULD YOU STOP TELLING THEM THE SECRETS OF EEK!!     I MEAN WHAT IS THIS!! THE GOD-DAMN SIEVE CHIT-CHAT CNN NETWORK!! 

You know that hardly anyone around here reads SFB stuff. So, they will never know that a basic from of SFB CnC was put in the EEK missions.

STOP TELLING THEM THAT TO RUN SFB CnC KINDA STUFF WITH FLEETS THAT THEY SHOULD JUST PLAY:

Enemy Sweep Patrol, Skirmish Patrol, Hold-the-Line Patrol, Squadron Action, Fleet Action and all the Planet/Base/Shipyard Assault/Defence missions.

NOW CUT THAT OUT RIGHT NOW!! 

MUM's the WORD!!  ALL RIGHT!!    

No secret is safe around here, hehe.

[Bonk]

  Go Karnak Go!

Ok, Ok,  we're a bunch of blabbermouths!  You should know that by now. Only the SPQR can be trusted to keep a secret...

[Gook]

any particular "hate" fleets?

[Julin Eurthyr]

Fleets:

Fleets are a nifty but evil idea at the same time.

You see, the 3-ship CW or CA fleet is the answer to the OOB player's DN.

Unfortunately, all consumable-reliant fleets, like the carrier which can sit back after the computer deploys fighters, or the droner that can fire a full spread of drones from whatever angle they want, are much stronger / easier to operate than a 3-Fed Photon fleet or a 3-plasma boat fleet.

Also, certain fleets have a cheaper startup costs.

I wouldn't mind flying on a fleet allowing server with the following conditions:

1.  Ship costs are equailized across the board.  A Mirak for example can buy a 3 DD or 3 FF fleet for about 20% cheaper than most anyone else's matching DD or FF, and closer to 30% cheaper than the ISC (but that's my lot in life for having the spiffy starships...).  Operating costs of certain ships / fleets should also be adjusted to help droners maintain their fleet longer, or the PP payout for a fleeting player is substantially increased to represent the fact that he is a fleet officer.
2.  Karnak's "free fleet" missions are standard, and keeps the freebie AI for the player if he is outnumbered in a PvP, granting ships that would be logically bought by the player in question (if I have a CCY, I get 2 CAYs as my allies, even if the enemy is a 3 FF fleet...)
3.  SFB CnC for fleets, including mandatory use of fleets for DN/BB, carrier and tender pilots.  Tenders are, after all, Taldren's bright "carrier substitution" for the PF races...

Rule 1 means people are paying the same (and it should be a lot) for the firepower involved in a fleet.
Rule 2 is there for casual players that can't afford (or really don't want to) a 3-ship fleet, possibly of a size to be useful.
Rule 3 adds to the balance, and cost, of operating the "cheesier" ships.  You want line ship use, here's a way to make them useful.

The thing is monitoring the SFB-compliance of player fleets may be a hard thing to do, without a good webmap or something else.

[Lepton]

The problem with fleeting is going to be the natural tendency to make restrictions on it.  Those restrictions will just start a whole other round of "belly aching" at not being able to fly whatever ships people want in fleets.  So the best way this can be done to me is the totally unrestricted "Wild, Wild West" server, and the more serious SFB-like server that may involve fleeting but is likely to be pretty restrictive in their use and constituents.  I thought the command/specialty ship accompanied by a vanilla ship CnC we had some servers past was fine.  Anything more complex than that may just end up being too much for people.  I like intense OoBs and CnCs but I don't think you are going to find alot of takers for that.

[Julin Eurthyr]

Lepton:

You don't remember the days of unrestricted fleets.

You're a Romulan, right?  Tell me about a Romulan fleet you can build that can stop 18-21 drones per turn long enough to wipe out 3 Z-MDCs or F-CADs.

Or a fleet that can stop 12 4-hellbore fighter squadrons.

These fleets need to be buildable with pre-2275 ships, as both fleets can be built handily before the Rommies get INTs, nevermind real PFs like the CENd...

[FPF-DieHard]

Now that were are at the last number I would like to add that searching for a standard is pointless. 

All this really did was piss a lot of people off.  Was damn amusing reading though 

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

If anyone got pissed off it was their own fault mostly, as per usual.

[SPQR Renegade]

Lepton:

You don't remember the days of unrestricted fleets.

You're a Romulan, right?  Tell me about a Romulan fleet you can build that can stop 18-21 drones per turn long enough to wipe out 3 Z-MDCs or F-CADs.

Or a fleet that can stop 12 4-hellbore fighter squadrons.

These fleets need to be buildable with pre-2275 ships, as both fleets can be built handily before the Rommies get INTs, nevermind real PFs like the CENd...

Reminds me of the days of CW3(4?). Hydrans Vs Rommies in unrestricted fleet warefare. Fleets of 3 KDPs vs 3 Rangers or whatever the Hydran NCVL is with all their Hellbore fighters. 6 ships, 12 PFs, & umpteen million fighters go in, 1 smoking ship limps out. The sky was thick with plasma & hellbore fire. Talk about a meat grinder, I don't even want to think about the PP that front chewed up.

Where were the Sth-Ds when we needed them....

[FireSoul]

the CENd+s are worse, IMHO.

[Lepton]

Lepton:

You don't remember the days of unrestricted fleets.

You're a Romulan, right?  Tell me about a Romulan fleet you can build that can stop 18-21 drones per turn long enough to wipe out 3 Z-MDCs or F-CADs.

Or a fleet that can stop 12 4-hellbore fighter squadrons.

These fleets need to be buildable with pre-2275 ships, as both fleets can be built handily before the Rommies get INTs, nevermind real PFs like the CENd...

Hey, Julin.  I agree.  I have no racial bias as I fly as many races as I can, although I have never flown a major campaign as Gorn.  Be that as it may, these fellows aren't looking for anything that makes any sense to me.  They just want to fly what they want to fly.  So I say give them what they want and see how far it gets them.  I personally would like to see some very restricted fleeting, but people are not going to go for that.  Every restriction will be countered by someone saying, "Hey, it's possible in that game.  Why can't I do it??"  They want rule simplicity. Give it to them.  No rules.  Then let's see who shows up and who stays.  I guarantee you that if players can form the kind of fleets you cite above, plasma flyers will say bye-bye.  This stuff is all going backwards.  You've all been there and done that.  The community has moved passed such silliness.

[Julin Eurthyr]

DH:

I don't think anyone in particular's looking for an actual "standard", that will be the rule for all future servers, but they are debating the rules and guidelines that make up a majority of the current servers.

It's been quite a while since I've seen a server use 3 ship fleets, have 100% unrestricted and cheap DNs / BBs, run with free disengagement, etc.  Most if not all of our current servers use mostly the same ruleset, varied according to the wills of the particular Admin (like LB5 had 2/2/1 limited ships, while GW uses limited assignments and build points, while other servers use Field Marshalls).

A healthy reminder of the old days (which quite a few people prefer, as indicated by Gook's current threads, and the fact that how many people have left over the different rules...) is necessary, and it may be useful in helping us refine the current rules from "knee-jerk reactions" to previous cheese complaints to rules that address the core issues with as much liberty to do what was done before as possible, of course, all in a balanced environment...

[Commander Maxillius]

I say fleet 'em up!  I remember Litterbox 3 when I had the ultimate cheese fleet with an IC and 2 ID wingmen.  Great fun, especially with over 40 Hornet III's :grin:  My most memorable mission was when I took the fleet through an astreroid field slalom course (remember, I was using the original models then where the Hydran carriers were the widest ship in the game)!  Lost both ID's to rocks since they couldn't keep up with speed 20 in close quarters.  I forget who I was fighting, but I think I still won. 

I think DarkElf admined that server and gave gobs of free PP to whoever wanted it.  I'll never drive that kind of cheese in a "real" server.  But, if I see it in my CL, I'll proceed to pick away at the offenders.  Do it all the time against AI.

That's a point I'd like to bring up, though.  Most mission matching for the more difficult servers will put you up against 2 or 3 ships at equal size class or lower.  I wouldn't use a fleet if I had to face 2x or 3x more opponents under those circumstances, especiall considering how retarded the allied AI can be.

[Lepton]

DH:

I don't think anyone in particular's looking for an actual "standard", that will be the rule for all future servers, but they are debating the rules and guidelines that make up a majority of the current servers.

It's been quite a while since I've seen a server use 3 ship fleets, have 100% unrestricted and cheap DNs / BBs, run with free disengagement, etc.  Most if not all of our current servers use mostly the same ruleset, varied according to the wills of the particular Admin (like LB5 had 2/2/1 limited ships, while GW uses limited assignments and build points, while other servers use Field Marshalls).

A healthy reminder of the old days (which quite a few people prefer, as indicated by Gook's current threads, and the fact that how many people have left over the different rules...) is necessary, and it may be useful in helping us refine the current rules from "knee-jerk reactions" to previous cheese complaints to rules that address the core issues with as much liberty to do what was done before as possible, of course, all in a balanced environment...

Julin,

Reread Gook's original proposal post here:

http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163343857.0.html

If that is not advocating for a new "standard", I don't know what is.  He indicates community disparities on what servers should be that he has distorted by the way.  He submits that this will all be good for the community, limited serious servers, yada yada.  That's advocating for a new "standard" as if there ever were an old one.  Since he has been called on advocating for an agenda so often, he has backtracked and said that he only meant to spur on discussion.   Please.  Look at his series of posts.  Artic Fire reminiscence.  Sookfoot's Manifesto.  Then his agenda of stock mission, deepstriking, fleeting, etc.  It's all in pursuit of the fastest possible drone race hex flipping.  Little fleets of DF+ running about everywhere.  It's transparent.

[Rolling]

I know I'm thoroughly pissed. 

[Corbomite]

I know I'm thoroughly pissed. 

You shouldn't be drinking so early in the day Kim.  Tsk, tsk!

[Rolling]

I know I'm thoroughly pissed. 

You shouldn't be drinking so early in the day Kim.  Tsk, tsk!

How else am I suppose to handled the twice minced beefcakes who have fallen from their throne of sensablility?


Minus a few post, this is a very good discussion. 

[Laflin]

any particular "hate" fleets?

Yeah, anything Dunzel used to put together