Topic: What do I have to do to sell this...?

[KHH Jakle]

Hey, it's me....the GZ guy.

Back in January I came over here (meaning the Taldren boards) to try to pitch a new league concept.  I count myself exceedingly lucky in having enticed Green to come over as well as GDA.

We are getting ready to wrap up Cycle 2 of Divisional Play.  Cycle 2 spanned all of the summer, so as typical of GSA play since SFC1, the volume of players has dropped - of course nowadays, that means things are at a crawl.  I am hopeful that Cycle 3 will successfully kick off in September with a bit more vigor.

Anyway, I bring this up again with a plea:  essentially, this 'League' is basically a collection of players who simply love playing this Game (Orion Pirates utilizing Firesoul's OP+).  Where as years ago, this was a passionate pursuit, where we would all find ourselves online in MPig/GSA multiple nights a week, now were pursue this as a hobby, played for it's pure enjoyment.  We dedicate ourselves to about 2-3 hours of play, once a week in team games (2v2/3v3), scheduled against designated opponents.  When you break it down to bare bones - that's what we're all about.

So here is my plea - we are all here, on these forums, because we love this game.  Is there a way that our Divisional Play could be structured to dovetail into place with D2 play?

What we currently offer:

Scheduled matches (best of 3 game series)
Play commitment is basically 1 match per week, but there is a lot of flexibility there
Games are 3v3 (will allowances for 2v2).
Each game uses a predetermined Total BPV to be divided amongst the players on each team
Era is predetermined
(basically, there is no negotiation, except when working out the day/time of the match)


The competition is Team based - basically and collection of 3 or more players consitutes a team.  People have a tendency to think 'Fleets' in the traditional ladder sense, where volume of players mattered - but all the players in the world make no difference there.  Matches are Race-based, meaning that if you say your team is Fed for the cycle, then you fly fed in all your matches.

So that's what we have now.  Is there anything we could add to the framework to make it any more appealing - or easier?  Easier for D2 focused people to participate?

I am eager to try to make mandatory the adoption of GZ's CnC system called Patrol Battle Rules, but at least 8 teams are needed who are willing to work with that to put it in place - not sure if playing under an SFB-ish framework would be attractive (some like it because it eliminated 'Cheese' combos and is felt to improve the game experience)

I don't know, but I am earnestly looking for input from everyone here as to what set up would make participating in some organized GSA play worthwhile.

Thank You

[Green]

Gotta agree w/ Jakle ... it is a hoot.  Worth the effort.

[Lepton]

Unless you can put forth endless AI missions for purposeless and meaningless gain, I don't think you will attract a D2 crowd.

The main reason I have not joined GZ is the conference play system.  While it's a fine idea, it seems to me if you join up with a fleet currently involved in conference play, you may be unlikely to ever fly in one of those matches.  So what's the point?

Also as far as I know there are only 3 games scheduled per week or something to that effect.  D2 guys want 24/7 action even if it is beating up on lines of code.  I also think those in the D2 have had their fill of ladder leagues which I think is the other component of GZ, the skirmishes.

So to sell it, I have no idea, but there are likely to be few takers. 

Prove me wrong, folks.

[Corbomite]

Unless you can put forth endless AI missions for purposeless and meaningless gain, I don't think you will attract a D2 crowd.

Its a game. What sort of meaning are you looking for here? In Monoploy you roll dice and try to gather as much "real estate" as you can while trying to have fun. I can find no worthwhile "meaning" other than that for any game, SFC included.

The main reason I have not joined GZ is the conference play system.  While it's a fine idea, it seems to me if you join up with a fleet currently involved in conference play, you may be unlikely to ever fly in one of those matches.  So what's the point?

To have fun with people you enjoy playing with and hanging out with. If you are an asset to your team, I'm sure they will make a spot for you.

Also as far as I know there are only 3 games scheduled per week or something to that effect.  D2 guys want 24/7 action even if it is beating up on lines of code.  I also think those in the D2 have had their fill of ladder leagues which I think is the other component of GZ, the skirmishes.

I would ask you to just speak for yourself on this issue as you really have no idea of the mind of everyone who plays this game, whatever part they may enjoy.

So to sell it, I have no idea, but there are likely to be few takers. 

Prove me wrong, folks.

Since none of us were put here to impress you or prove anything to you, I'll decline the offer.


While I have nothing against you Lepton and I think you do usually bring up valid points, I find it hard, as I have from the beginning, to respect anyone's opinion that complains about the game more than they play it.

[Corbomite]

Unless you can put forth endless AI missions for purposeless and meaningless gain, I don't think you will attract a D2 crowd.

Its a game. What sort of meaning are you looking for here? In Monopoly you roll dice and try to gather as much "real estate" as you can while trying to have fun. I can find no worthwhile "meaning" other than that for any game, SFC included.

The main reason I have not joined GZ is the conference play system.  While it's a fine idea, it seems to me if you join up with a fleet currently involved in conference play, you may be unlikely to ever fly in one of those matches.  So what's the point?

To have fun with people you enjoy playing with and hanging out with. If you are an asset to your team, I'm sure they will make a spot for you.

Also as far as I know there are only 3 games scheduled per week or something to that effect.  D2 guys want 24/7 action even if it is beating up on lines of code.  I also think those in the D2 have had their fill of ladder leagues which I think is the other component of GZ, the skirmishes.

I would ask you to just speak for yourself on this issue as you really have no idea of the mind of everyone who plays this game, whatever part they may enjoy.

So to sell it, I have no idea, but there are likely to be few takers. 

Prove me wrong, folks.

Since none of us were put here to impress you or prove anything to you, I'll decline the offer.


While I have nothing against you Lepton and I think you do usually bring up valid points, I find it hard, as I have from the beginning, to respect anyone's opinion that complains about the game more than they play it.

[Kroma BaSyl]

Hey Lepton, I invite you to join the GDA for GZ. GZ has been a lot of fun, and has really breathed new life into the game for me.  Sure it has it's own issues, but makes for a nice PvP play.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Lepton I don't do GZ, must admit I've considered it however.  Everyone I know who has participated has found it fun and rewarding.  I'd recommend it as much as someone who hasn't tried it can.

The only reason I haven't tried it is that its the strategic nature of SFC that is most appealing to me and the fact that I work off hours.  However, I do think I will get around to giving it a shot at some time in the future.

[Cleaven]

Unless you can put forth endless AI missions for purposeless and meaningless gain, I don't think you will attract a D2 crowd.

The main reason I have not joined GZ is the conference play system.  While it's a fine idea, it seems to me if you join up with a fleet currently involved in conference play, you may be unlikely to ever fly in one of those matches.  So what's the point?

Also as far as I know there are only 3 games scheduled per week or something to that effect.  D2 guys want 24/7 action even if it is beating up on lines of code.  I also think those in the D2 have had their fill of ladder leagues which I think is the other component of GZ, the skirmishes.

So to sell it, I have no idea, but there are likely to be few takers. 

Prove me wrong, folks.

Somebody is trolling, or doesn't undestand what a sweeping generalisation is.

[GDA-S'Cipio]

I've found GZ to be a lot of fun.  If you haven't tried it, I'd encourage you to give it a shot.  What makes GZ work for me, when I wasn't into a lot of other GSA stuff, is the fact that every match is three on three.  Participating really helps you develop your fleet flying skills.  Since you need to fit three ships into a randomly selected BPV each match, you also end up flying a lot of ships you simply wouldn't ever use on D2.

It's fun.  It's different.  It's worth a try.  And Chuut, if you ever want to join in the fun, you could always bring back GDT-Graz'Taz and join us in the GDA.

-S'Cipio

[KBFLordKrueg]

Hmm, I could maybe get back into GZ play. I mostly stopped playing there due to the endless haggleing over BPV, etc. for a match. The constant connection issues with some players was also maddening sometimes. I could be on GSA for an hour and be lucky to complete 1 or 2 games at best. I could run 6-8 missions in the same time on D2. Another big factor was that the last fleet I was in (MoK) kinda fell apart and I just didn't feel like jumping into another fleet right away. Then I discovered the great sense of comradery on D2, got invited to join KBF and just kinda stayed with it.
But, if there is sceduled matches with pre-agreed BPV, etc It would be nice to show up, play a couple games and have some fun...

[Mog]

As a former occasional ladder player (HoZ, HMT, RAK and CB), I too was turned off by the hassles of negotiations etc. My main problem is still time zones. Being in England makes it damn hard to fit in with the rest of you, otherwise I could be interested (though I don't know for what fleet).

[Cleaven]

As a former occasional ladder player (HoZ, HMT, RAK and CB), I too was turned off by the hassles of negotiations etc. My main problem is still time zones. Being in England makes it damn hard to fit in with the rest of you, otherwise I could be interested (though I don't know for what fleet).

I had the same dramas, so you can join my fleet. We only do battle between midnight and 4 am on Sat mornings, US time.

[FPF-Tobin Dax]

I presently fly with iCoP in GZ's 3v3 format. 

[KHH Jakle]

Also as far as I know there are only 3 games scheduled per week or something to that effect.   I also think those in the D2 have had their fill of ladder leagues which I think is the other component of GZ, the skirmishes.

Nobody uses the Scrimmage system (aka 'Skirmish' ladder).  It's there...but nobody bothers with it.

Ultimately what I am groping for is bringing teams of players over - not necessarily onesy-twoseys who come over and join an existing team/fleet.  Don't get me wrong - every single individual who participates adds a great deal to the whole.  But ultimately the play needs teams to pit against each other.

That's probably an additional stumbling block.  Each team needs not only 3-4 reliable players, but one player willing to take point and schedule the matches and notify his wings of the date/time.

But that's part of what I am here asking about - what could be done to make this special enough and novel enough to participate? 

To respond to another of Lepton's comments - the desire for 24/7 action.  Well that's what the D2's for .  Again, I am trying to offer something on the side:  pure team pvp action, scheduled to minimize wasted time.  When you break it down to the core, that's what we are. 

So what else do we need to be?

[Lepton]

Whew!  You guys really cannot identify jokes.  I think GZ is great, but I also think it's a bit ironic trying to convince folks that seemed to have already voted with their feet for the D2 to head over to GZ.  I'm glad to see you guys support GZ.  Perhaps you'll get the infusion of folks you are looking for, but I have no idea what incentive that can be offered.

[KHH Jakle]

Ironic?  Yeah, I guess it is.  I have no illusions.  It is quite evident to me that in the evolution of this game, the D2 side of the house is the side that has maintained a greater degree of vigor than the GSA side of the house.

I never would have thought this the case - my perception has always been that D2 play simply sucked and that GSA ladder leagues was the way to go.  As it is, I only participate in the GW series, but my overall perception of D2 play has changed.

I am asking that folks here extend themselves out to another venue with nothing in return but the chance that it might increase their overall enjoyment of this game, but that would be the only thing they will get in return, there is no other real incentive perse.

So if that incetive is at all attractive - what might still be in the way that would cause a D2'er balk at participating.

I am thinking now that the main stumbling block is really the lack of centrally controlled 'Fleet's over here.  My impression is that a lot of people are totally independant players, players that identify with a certain race but no fleet allegiance, or players that are affiliated with a loose organization but that does not have a central head. 

I think GDA has adapted well because Kel took interest and pulled a team together and then continued as point man (or leveraging Kroma in his place).  That's a good example of how teams need that lead point guy - it's not enough to have willing players, someone needs to pull them together.

I mean, would it help if I somehow facilitated a pool of interested players, and then once it reached critical mass look for willing individuals to act as the team leaders?

[FPF-Jem]

Quick question, how are the games played, over Gamespy?

It does sound interesting but I really dislike gamespy, which is the biggest hangup for me.

[Mog]

Ironic?  Yeah, I guess it is.  I have no illusions.  It is quite evident to me that in the evolution of this game, the D2 side of the house is the side that has maintained a greater degree of vigor than the GSA side of the house.

I never would have thought this the case - my perception has always been that D2 play simply sucked and that GSA ladder leagues was the way to go.  As it is, I only participate in the GW series, but my overall perception of D2 play has changed.

You weren't alone in that feeling lol. I think the majority of the ladder players felt that way. I tried many times to inform my fleetmates that it had changed from the early days, but they just wouldn't have it. I'm pretty sure they thought that us D2 players sucked too in terms of skill. I tried to disavow them of that notion also

As I said in my previous post, really the only things stopping me from joining up are time zones and not being in any group or fleet. I don't understand your final paragraph.

[KHH Jakle]

Ack!  No GSA?

Seriously - GSA is the standard method of connecting for matches.  However, it is in no way required.  IP games are just as valid....it would seem a little unorthodox so most, but I've done IP connect games before, there isn't much to setting them up.

The trick would be setting it up.  We use an interface to negotiate the match time, then a scheduler when the day/time has been agreed upon.  If some one wanted to host and had a fixed IP, you could load that into the scheduler, and it would be visible to all players.  Otherwise, you'd have to have some venue with which to communicate it (email, IM.....GSA chat room)

Does my earlier 'Team Matching' idea sound at all agree able to any individual interested players?

[FPF-AJTK]

Man, few things betta than watching Corbo and Cleaven get up a head of steam! 

I mean, DH is more entertaining in a vulgar sort of way, but hes all the time getting banned, just when he is getting warmed up!