Topic: 11 & 12 none contentious ?

[Lepton]

But it has been said in this thread when I get X ship I'm not changing, I waited too long etc etc, which is the prerogative of the player, but just because he wants to play in just one ship should the rules be skewed to favour that style or positive choice not to change to circumstances.

If you are going to make reference to a post, make full reference: "When I get X ship I'm not changing for a worse ship"

If you can skew the rules to make it convincing for a player to change from a ship which is good at one thing, to a ship which is good at nothing then go right ahead. I'd like to see it explained.

Well I'd have thought in context it was obvious, but if not, changing from a good PvP ship to a good flipper. That doesn't require a skew of the rules, just the willingness to change to circumstances. The rule we have means that player X (none specific not refering to any poster in particualr in case that is not clear) who is in his big fat <insert FOM CC/BCH> does not need to contemplate having to change to accomadate circumstances all he has to do is sit in hex Y (none specific hex purely for illustration and not related in any way to a similar sounding but differently spelt player), watch player Z (no relation to a Kzin but I can see why this may be confusing) see him in mission for 2 minutes while he flies off and know that the little varmint will be gone for an hour. That rule skews the game IMHO. In case you hadn't noticed I was discussing no rule, not implementing one.

BTW I'm reasonably sure I'm not drunk, but I wouldn't know, I'd have to consult you, who obviously know so much more about my mental health than I do, from half a world away. But that is getting personal so we should keep our Doctor/Patient chats off the boards

So you are going to demonstrate your mental health by telling me it's a just a matter of "willingness" to change from a KRC to one of the following, K5R, KR, BH, WE, in order to flip hexes faster. Explain how this works and I'll believe you are not a nut or a drunk on a crusade to return us to the "good ol' days" just for your own benefit. That's all I want, an explanation of how it really works so that flying a KRC is actually worse than the other ships available for fighting AI and PvP.

Ouch, Cleaven and I agree.

[el-Karnak]

I think there could be a way to remove the disengagement rule, without having the plasma races disadvantaged as of old. Cleaven first suggested this many moons ago. Give a greater DV shift for a pvp mission (SQL required?).

Without SQL, the missions can enforce mandatory mission times.  If you run out of enemy AI before min. mission time is up then more can be hurl at you to gourge on bonus PPs.

Only one problem:  when I suggested it, many in the community shot it down and took great offense.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

How is the situation in year 5 and thereafter Cleaven?  once the SPA arrives?

Had pretty good luck with that one myself esp fighting Fed ships with low marine counts.  A NSM can sure wreck a small boat after a plasma alfa and a suicide shuttle.

You know em better than I however so what do you think here?

and I don't think anyone thinks that there is anything other than KRC in year 2.  Why I suggest allowing basic pfs and INTs out from year 1 or 2.

[Bonk]

I think there could be a way to remove the disengagement rule, without having the plasma races disadvantaged as of old. Cleaven first suggested this many moons ago. Give a greater DV shift for a pvp mission (SQL required?).

Without SQL, the missions can enforce mandatory mission times.  If you run out of enemy AI before min. mission time is up then more can be hurl at you to gourge on bonus PPs.

Only one problem:  when I suggested it, many in the community shot it down and took great offense.

This still is a viable option if you ask me. As long as the mission doesn't leave you idle; keeps generating AI for you to kill for as long the mission runs.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I think there could be a way to remove the disengagement rule, without having the plasma races disadvantaged as of old. Cleaven first suggested this many moons ago. Give a greater DV shift for a pvp mission (SQL required?).

Without SQL, the missions can enforce mandatory mission times.  If you run out of enemy AI before min. mission time is up then more can be hurl at you to gourge on bonus PPs.

Only one problem:  when I suggested it, many in the community shot it down and took great offense.

Picks up frog skeet shooting rifle again.......

"Pull"

BANG

[Lepton]

Gook, your whole "sacred cow" deal is so disingenuous.  You have continually advanced an agenda either explicitly or implicitly.  You don't challenge a perceived status quo unless you oppose it.  You have advanced your own opinions first and foremost and have advanced them as a sort of voice of the community based on false readings and/or distortions of public polls, playing on people's frustrations and dissatisfaction to push your own agenda.  Also, you have framed all the issues with your own agenda, in intent and in form, i.e. your little list which is your agenda indeed.  You have muddled issues by playing devil's advocate and twisting logic and sense to make your points into the realm of conjecture and speculation. To me, more often than not you have demonstrated that you have no idea how people actually play on the D2 and your presentation of it either demonstrates ignorance or purpose.  Your "service" to the community is complete now as town fool or transparent machiavellian.

[SPQR Renegade]

Chuut, I'm not sure what you were drawing in your Sph-A, but the 80 odd points a Sph-A alpha (plas-G, 2 plas-F, 4 Ph-1s & 2 Ph-3s) will dish out is not going to pop a Fed or Gorn NCL. Going for the fast kill against the Gorn, your going to do little more than trade alphas with a tougher ship than your own.

For that matter, assuming server setting try to produce even AI matches, the 125 point BPV of the Sph-A is more likely to put you up against the beefier 125 BPV F-CA or 122 BPV G-CA than an F-NCL(118) or G-HDD(112). Can you win? Sure. Can you do it in 2-3 min, repeatably?  Show me.

[Cleaven]

The main problem with the SPA is lack of Ph-1 to alpha with. Instead you have to kill with that Plas G (and two F's), which fires every three turns. If you want to take damage, close to closer than range 5 so you can use the Ph 3, but it's small recompense. Did I mention the FA for the G-torp so you have to always be positioning yourself for the next launch or you lose more and more time being chased and only being able to fire the F's.

[el-Karnak]

I think there could be a way to remove the disengagement rule, without having the plasma races disadvantaged as of old. Cleaven first suggested this many moons ago. Give a greater DV shift for a pvp mission (SQL required?).

Without SQL, the missions can enforce mandatory mission times.  If you run out of enemy AI before min. mission time is up then more can be hurl at you to gourge on bonus PPs.

Only one problem:  when I suggested it, many in the community shot it down and took great offense.

Picks up frog skeet shooting rifle again.......

"Pull"

BANG

You see!!  Everybody just L-O-V-E-S me now for mentioning it!!  Just look at all the happy smiling faces in Kzin Lounge.

Picks up Bad Ole Putty Tat skeet shooting rifle 

"Pull"

BANG Back!! 

[Holocat]

I think there could be a way to remove the disengagement rule, without having the plasma races disadvantaged as of old. Cleaven first suggested this many moons ago. Give a greater DV shift for a pvp mission (SQL required?).

Without SQL, the missions can enforce mandatory mission times.  If you run out of enemy AI before min. mission time is up then more can be hurl at you to gourge on bonus PPs.

Only one problem:  when I suggested it, many in the community shot it down and took great offense.

Picks up frog skeet shooting rifle again.......

"Pull"

BANG

You see!!  Everybody just L-O-V-E-S me now for mentioning it!!  Just look at all the happy smiling faces in Kzin Lounge.

Picks up Bad Ole Putty Tat skeet shooting rifle 

"Pull"

BANG Back!! 

Y'know, I kinda like the idea.  It has a campy feel that not everyone might like, but I could enjoy that.

You could make quite a few funny missions out of that;  Take something like that skeet shooting joke above me;  Put a base at one end of a map, and an anomoly that hatches out really bad ships at the other continually for X minutes, going only for the base.  Kill as many as you can, duck hunting style.  Complete the first round?  Send in another wave of somewhat hardier ships.

Lose the base and lose the mission, oh no!

It's an unrelated topic, mission scripts, I know, but I'm reeeeeeealy tired of the endless variations of "An AI ship(s) are going to try to blow you up.  Blow them up but good.  Dismissed."  I mean, a little bit of really off the wall stuff would be a nice change of pace. 

Mabey a mission where you have to hit waypoints and then a powerpoint before you can take on the ghosts enemy, or mabey some simple space invader action.  What about a mission that contained no combat at all, but was an intresting and complicated scripted away team mission on some distant planet?

I mean, patrols are nice, but hey, there's other stuff that can be done too, right?

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Chuut, I'm not sure what you were drawing in your Sph-A, but the 80 odd points a Sph-A alpha (plas-G, 2 plas-F, 4 Ph-1s & 2 Ph-3s) will dish out is not going to pop a Fed or Gorn NCL. Going for the fast kill against the Gorn, your going to do little more than trade alphas with a tougher ship than your own.

For that matter, assuming server setting try to produce even AI matches, the 125 point BPV of the Sph-A is more likely to put you up against the beefier 125 BPV F-CA or 122 BPV G-CA than an F-NCL(118) or G-HDD(112). Can you win? Sure. Can you do it in 2-3 min, repeatably?  Show me.

Oh I don't disagree but 3-4 is doable, and using a suicide shuttle and the NSM  will increase that altpa quite nicely.

[Cleaven]

Well I'd have thought in context it was obvious, but if not, changing from a good PvP ship to a good flipper. That doesn't require a skew of the rules, just the willingness to change to circumstances. The rule we have means that player X (none specific not refering to any poster in particualr in case that is not clear) who is in his big fat <insert FOM CC/BCH> does not need to contemplate having to change to accomadate circumstances all he has to do is sit in hex Y (none specific hex purely for illustration and not related in any way to a similar sounding but differently spelt player), watch player Z (no relation to a Kzin but I can see why this may be confusing) see him in mission for 2 minutes while he flies off and know that the little varmint will be gone for an hour. That rule skews the game IMHO. In case you hadn't noticed I was discussing no rule, not implementing one.

BTW I'm reasonably sure I'm not drunk, but I wouldn't know, I'd have to consult you, who obviously know so much more about my mental health than I do, from half a world away. But that is getting personal so we should keep our Doctor/Patient chats off the boards

So you are going to demonstrate your mental health by telling me it's a just a matter of "willingness" to change from a KRC to one of the following, K5R, KR, BH, WE, in order to flip hexes faster. Explain how this works and I'll believe you are not a nut or a drunk on a crusade to return us to the "good ol' days" just for your own benefit. That's all I want, an explanation of how it really works so that flying a KRC is actually worse than the other ships available for fighting AI and PvP.

Still waiting for an explanation .....

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Just curious as I have little personal experience in this matter, but how long does a mission usually take in the main Romulan ships in each era Cleaven, no need to mention the total dogs.  Just curious how it plays out by era.

My main experience has been with sparrowhawk hulls outside of GSA.

[Cleaven]

Just to make sure I've got the question right, I'm choosing the best AI killer by era and estimating the mission time in a 1 Vs 1.

What I would rather do is choose the best AI killer progressively over time and make it more relavent to the more common multiship missions by estimating the effects of a useless AI ally Vs a Gorn pair and a Mirak pair. Is that reasonable or do you want to stick to the simplistic analysis (less assumptions - more hard stats)?

[Gook]

Well I'd have thought in context it was obvious, but if not, changing from a good PvP ship to a good flipper. That doesn't require a skew of the rules, just the willingness to change to circumstances. The rule we have means that player X (none specific not refering to any poster in particualr in case that is not clear) who is in his big fat <insert FOM CC/BCH> does not need to contemplate having to change to accomadate circumstances all he has to do is sit in hex Y (none specific hex purely for illustration and not related in any way to a similar sounding but differently spelt player), watch player Z (no relation to a Kzin but I can see why this may be confusing) see him in mission for 2 minutes while he flies off and know that the little varmint will be gone for an hour. That rule skews the game IMHO. In case you hadn't noticed I was discussing no rule, not implementing one.

BTW I'm reasonably sure I'm not drunk, but I wouldn't know, I'd have to consult you, who obviously know so much more about my mental health than I do, from half a world away. But that is getting personal so we should keep our Doctor/Patient chats off the boards

So you are going to demonstrate your mental health by telling me it's a just a matter of "willingness" to change from a KRC to one of the following, K5R, KR, BH, WE, in order to flip hexes faster. Explain how this works and I'll believe you are not a nut or a drunk on a crusade to return us to the "good ol' days" just for your own benefit. That's all I want, an explanation of how it really works so that flying a KRC is actually worse than the other ships available for fighting AI and PvP.

Still waiting for an explanation .....

Not sure I can be bothered, but as you are the Doc, can you run an AI standard patrol in 2 minutes in a KRC? If so, there is no problem and I am utterly wrong. If you cannot, then the KRC is a worse ship for AI missions than ones I know can.

This has strayed from this thread back onto another, but as they are linked in that the rule under  question is a direct result of fast flipping, it is relevant here. If the argument is that the SPHG is a commando ship and will be "R"'d out then its time to ask for at least the plasma races to get them back, as I can do the missions in approaching that time and I am useless with plasma ships. Yes the Commando ships are not so good PVP, but that's what your KRC is for you have to switch ships for the job in hand. (no you don't "have" to, but it is more effcient)

For the record (again) I think Plasma ships suffer from SFB BPV problems, when fighting tournies (as I did many years ago) plasma boats ruled and BPV was high for launchers in that game(SFB). They are not so effective (boards are bigger so no hard edges to pin peeps against) in this game. The Rommies are particulary hard hit because of the 25% bump (or whatever it is) they get from cloak which is not that effective (in this game). I may be wrong but if I were Rommie I take a 25% reduction in BPV over a cloak anyday (just an opinion). So I still think plasma races should have an accross the board reduction in BPV to help flipping, and there is an argument that that the Rommies should receive more on account of the relative usefullness of the cloak. Now this strays into another thread, but again related, because if you equalise the times people flip in then again the disengaement rule becomes less "required". Again just opinion.

As for personal agendas I have stated my position more than once, people are free to accept or reject that as they want. It is also not a question of "old" or "new" it is a question of freedom of choice, reduction in rules, and equalisation of a long vexed question, from the time the words "cheesy droner" were first used by the ISC following CW3, of the inequality of mission times; a question of playing in more than one way and accepting the validity of alternative gamestyles. I'll repeat again I am more than willing to give up the Kzin if all other drones are removed, if that will solve the problem.

Now that lot probably strays well off the question, but it's all related.

I do not actually enjoy hex flipping that much I do enjoy PvP more, but we have differing views on what "meaningfu"l PvP is. Most of all I enjoy the strategy, which in my view  is skewed by a tendency to guide people by rules or public humiliation to a certain way of playing.

I know I have said all that before, and I expect it to be dismissed as more deranged ramblings, but that's the readers freedom of choice.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Either analysis is fine Cleaven as its your time.

I agree about allowing the Commando variants back in, the Sparrowhawk commando ship is a nice hex flipper vs ai with a minimum marine loadout.  It is also little threat to p v p so I think Gook has an excellent point here.  It also is a helluva PP farmer.

[Cleaven]

Not sure I can be bothered, but as you are the Doc, can you run an AI standard patrol in 2 minutes in a KRC? If so, there is no problem and I am utterly wrong. If you cannot, then the KRC is a worse ship for AI missions than ones I know can.

I know it's a trick question so I will give it to you again. Please explain which of the available ships (K5R, BH, WE, KR, and eveb the WB+) is better than the KRC at doing quick AI missions. Now you are about to tell me which of those ships is able to "run a standard AI patrol in 2 minutes".

Go right ahead and tell me. Don't keep it to yourself because I am ever so keen to hear. It's quite simple - put up or shut up, and stop prattling on about "ones I know that can", because I think you are getting nuttier by the post.

[Cleaven]

Either analysis is fine Cleaven as its your time.

I agree about allowing the Commando variants back in, the Sparrowhawk commando ship is a nice hex flipper vs ai with a minimum marine loadout.  It is also little threat to p v p so I think Gook has an excellent point here.  It also is a helluva PP farmer.

Aye, but when was the last time you saw minumum marine loadout? Wasn't this all part of the quest to stop one group from sitting in their rear area running "harvest" missions to get those DN's (translate to BC now)?

Isn't it a tad rich to tell one side to use an AI only ship which  comes out 3 years after the KRC?

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I think Gook was referring to being able to in the SPG as a hexflipping ship, which it is the combination of the alpha and boarding action being enough to take out many ships without waiting for the plasma to recharge.  Doesn't help in early era however.  I still think the way to go is to have a basic pftender and INTs available at the start.  A chickenhawk with 3 INTs shouldn't threaten anyone too badly.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Aye, but when was the last time you saw minumum marine loadout.

Quite recently actually Litterbox 5 I think.  If not minimum sure was damn low.  We haven't had many maxed out marine counts in the last year of servers if any.

Wasn't this all part of the quest to stop one group from sitting in their rear area running "harvest" missions to get those DN's (translate to BC now)?

Never had a big problem with farming, and any server with an OOB should make this a non-issue for that server.

Isn't it a tad rich to tell one side to use an AI only ship which  comes out 3 years after the KRC?

Well it kinda depends on the starting year, if the server starts with this ship out then it isn't.   I've already agreed with Gook that it should be unrestricted.  If the server starts before it is out release the Chicken hawk and INTs from day 1 or at least some form of light PFT and INTs.