Topic: Clear the Air  (Read 8539 times)

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Offline likkerpig

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Clear the Air
« on: August 01, 2004, 09:18:14 pm »
The last few days have had posts about bridging the comunities, blah, blah, blah.
It all comes down to SFC3 players being abused by OP players.
I really wish I could use profanity here, but let me say it is what comes out of a horse's rear end.
It is a manufactured problem, over and over I have asked those that have made the claim to back it up.
NO RESPONSE!
Just a strawman argument... why? What is the purpose? Piss me off? Succeeded!
Let's see the proof or go away!
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Offline Holocat

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Re: Clear the Air
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2004, 09:19:40 pm »
The last few days have had posts about bridging the comunities, blah, blah, blah.
It all comes down to SFC3 players being abused by OP players.
I really wish I could use profanity here, but let me say it is what comes out of a horse's rear end.
It is a manufactured problem, over and over I have asked those that have made the claim to back it up.
NO RESPONSE!
Just a strawman argument... why? What is the purpose? Piss me off? Succeeded!
Let's see the proof or go away!



If you really want to clear the air, a bath is a definate option.

This may help additionally:



Comeon, just rave about and wave your arms.  Everyone in here does it. ;3

Offline Rolling

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Re: Clear the Air
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2004, 09:27:55 pm »
The last few days have had posts about bridging the comunities, blah, blah, blah.
It all comes down to SFC3 players being abused by OP players.
I really wish I could use profanity here, but let me say it is what comes out of a horse's rear end.
It is a manufactured problem, over and over I have asked those that have made the claim to back it up.
NO RESPONSE!
Just a strawman argument... why? What is the purpose? Piss me off? Succeeded!
Let's see the proof or go away!



I gave you proof.

Now, this obviously didn't concern you.  That is why you don't know anything about it.

Consider yourself fortunate.

Kimberly
Always chew more than you can bite.

Offline likkerpig

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Re: Clear the Air
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2004, 09:50:48 pm »
The last few days have had posts about bridging the comunities, blah, blah, blah.
It all comes down to SFC3 players being abused by OP players.
I really wish I could use profanity here, but let me say it is what comes out of a horse's rear end.
It is a manufactured problem, over and over I have asked those that have made the claim to back it up.
NO RESPONSE!
Just a strawman argument... why? What is the purpose? Piss me off? Succeeded!
Let's see the proof or go away!



I gave you proof.

Now, this obviously didn't concern you.  That is why you don't know anything about it.

Consider yourself fortunate.

Kimberly

No, you gave me a first person viewpoint of your fleet comms. And an undisclosed pm from an OP'er. No bias there (sarcasm).
If it didn't concern me why post it on a public forum rather than a PM? You were looking for a reaction, you got one.

Holocat, cute picture, I see your point. I've been playing the nice, understanding guy the last 3 days and I see the same damn thing pop up over and over again. I'm sick of it, if the accusation is to made, back it up!
Otherwise it is just another strawman.
"Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby."



Offline Holocat

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Re: Clear the Air
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2004, 09:56:37 pm »
Ok.  I've had it.

What is this "strawman" everyone keeps saying?  It's popping up on the boards all over where i'm pawing about, and I have no idea what it could mean.

"Hollow Men" maybe?  what?  seriously.

On the other topic, no one's forcing anyone to read things they don't want to read.  Relax.

You'd think with all the booze you imbibe you'd know that thinking too much hurts.

Offline FVA_C_ Blade_ XC

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Re: Clear the Air
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2004, 10:00:07 pm »
Ok it dont take a brain surgeon to see where this is going.

Play nice!
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Offline Holocat

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Re: Clear the Air
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2004, 10:03:06 pm »

Offline KBF-Dogmatix_XC

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Re: Clear the Air
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2004, 10:04:05 pm »
Ok.  I've had it.

What is this "strawman" everyone keeps saying?  It's popping up on the boards all over where i'm pawing about, and I have no idea what it could mean.

"Hollow Men" maybe?  what?  seriously.

On the other topic, no one's forcing anyone to read things they don't want to read.  Relax.

You'd think with all the booze you imbibe you'd know that thinking too much hurts.



The Straw Man Fallacy
Type: Red Herring
Etymology:

"Straw man" is one of the best-named fallacies, because it is memorable and vividly illustrates the nature of the fallacy. Imagine a fight in which one of the combatants sets up a man of straw, attacks it, then proclaims victory. All the while, the real opponent stands by untouched.
Quote-Unquote:

    "When your opponent sets up a straw man, set it on fire and kick the cinders around the stage. Don't worry about losing the Strawperson-American community vote." (James Lileks)

Example:

    "Some of you may have seen the 90-minute ABC network television show?entitled 'Growing Up in the Age of AIDS'.? I was one of nine guests on that live program.? ?[A] single 45-second sound bite cost me a long journey and two hectic days in New York City.

    "Why?did I travel to The Big Apple for such an insignificant role? ?I felt a responsibility to express the abstinence position on national television.? How sad that adolescents hear only the dangerous 'safe sex' message from adults who should know better.

    "What follows, then, is what I would have said on television.?

    "Why, apart from moral considerations, do you think teenagers should be taught to abstain from sex until marriage?

    "?[N]ot one of 800 sexologists at a recent conference raised a hand when asked if they would trust a thin rubber sheath to protect them during intercourse with a known HIV infected person. ? And yet they're perfectly willing to tell our kids that 'safe sex' is within reach and that they can sleep around with impunity."
    Source: James C. Dobson, in a fund-raising letter for "Focus on the Family", February 13, 1992.

Exposition:

Judging from my experience, Straw Man is one of the commonest of fallacies. It is endemic in public debates on politics, ethics, and religion.

The Straw Man is a type of Red Herring because the arguer is attempting to refute his opponent's position, and in the context is required to do so, but instead attacks a position?the "straw man"?not held by his opponent. In a Straw Man argument, the arguer argues to a conclusion that denies the "straw man" he has set up, but misses the target. There may be nothing wrong with the argument presented by the arguer when it is taken out of context, that is, it may be a perfectly good argument against the straw man. It is only because the burden of proof is on the arguer to argue against the opponent's position that a Straw Man fallacy is committed. So, the fallacy is not simply the argument, but the entire situation of the argument occurring in such a context.
Subfallacy:

As the "straw man" metaphor suggests, the counterfeit position attacked in a Straw Man argument is typically weaker than the opponent's actual position, just as a straw man is easier to defeat than a flesh-and-blood one. Of course, this is no accident, but is part of what makes the fallacy tempting to commit, especially to a desperate debater who is losing an argument. Thus, it is no surprise that arguers seldom misstate their opponent's position so as to make it stronger. Of course, if there is an obvious way to make a debating opponent's position stronger, then one is up against an incompetent debater. Debaters usually try to take the strongest position they can, so that any change is likely to be for the worse. However, attacking a logically stronger position than that taken by the opponent is a sign of strength, whereas attacking a straw man is a sign of weakness.

A common straw man is an extreme man. Extreme positions are more difficult to defend because they make fewer allowances for exceptions, or counter-examples. Consider the statement forms:

    * All P are Q.
    * Most P are Q.
    * Many P are Q.
    * Some P are Q.
    * Some P are not Q.
    * Many P are not Q.
    * Most P are not Q.
    * No P are Q.

The extremes are "All P are Q" and "No P are Q". These are easiest to refute, since all it takes is a single counter-example to refute a universal proposition. Moreover, the world being such as it is, unless P and Q are connected definitionally, such propositions are usually false. The other propositions are progressively harder to refute until you get to the middle two: "Some P are Q" and "Some P are not Q". To refute these requires one to prove the extremes: "No P are Q" or "All P are Q", respectively. So, extremists are those who take positions starting with "all" or "no". For instance, the extremists in the abortion debate are those who argue that no abortions are permissible, or that all abortions are.

Therefore, Straw Man arguments often attack a political party or movement at its extremes, where it is weakest. For example, it is a straw man to portray the anti-abortion position as the claim that all abortions, with no exceptions, are wrong. It is also a straw man to attack abortion rights as the position that no abortions should ever be restricted, bar none. Such straw men are often part of the process of "demonization", and we might well call the subfallacy of the straw man which attacks an extreme position instead of the more moderate position held by the opponent, the "Straw Demon".



From:

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/index.html
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Offline Cleaven

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Re: Clear the Air
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2004, 10:04:44 pm »
I know about a Wicker Man.

Not sure I can be bothered, but as you are the Doc, can you run an AI standard patrol in 2 minutes in a KRC? If so, there is no problem and I am utterly wrong. If you cannot, then the KRC is a worse ship for AI missions than ones I know can.

Offline KBF-Dogmatix_XC

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Re: Clear the Air
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2004, 10:07:12 pm »
Know about!?  ;)


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Offline FVA_C_ Blade_ XC

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Re: Clear the Air
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2004, 10:11:47 pm »
I know about a Wicker Man.
Sad thing is most wont get that(well except Doggy)
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Offline Cleaven

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Re: Clear the Air
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2004, 10:13:37 pm »
Know about!?  ;)


Now I spilt my tea again. It's things like that that start wars you know.

Not sure I can be bothered, but as you are the Doc, can you run an AI standard patrol in 2 minutes in a KRC? If so, there is no problem and I am utterly wrong. If you cannot, then the KRC is a worse ship for AI missions than ones I know can.

Offline Rod ONeal

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Re: Clear the Air
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2004, 10:15:05 pm »
Kim,
One person, one time, a long time ago, doesn't make an epidemic. As Stephan mentioned, you all caught crap for playing BF1942 as well.

Some people wil poopoo all over anyone who likes something they don't. Some others might be worried that they are going to lose players of their prefered game to another. Or maybe that they are even going to lose contact with a friend. It's going to happen. When it does the parties involved need to talk about it, if they care to. If not then they shouldn't wait until it sticks in their craw long enough to let it fester. Even then, talk directly to the offending party.

This is all way too much drama here. The people who want to play SFC3 need to do that and the people who want to play SFC2 will do the same.

I get annoyed a bit at the people who only mention SFBers when they are whining (not you, this is just a general statement) about some type of elitest attitude. I don't come on here though and put them on the spot about it and start some sort of argument. I've come to the realisation that most of those people just don't understand the game when we talk about it and get the wrong impression. I've quit taking it personally. I suggest that other do the same. If I don't like SFC3 it doesn't mean that I don't like you if you do.
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Offline Cleaven

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Re: Clear the Air
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2004, 10:15:42 pm »
Come to think of it spilt tea was involved in the start of a war too.

Not sure I can be bothered, but as you are the Doc, can you run an AI standard patrol in 2 minutes in a KRC? If so, there is no problem and I am utterly wrong. If you cannot, then the KRC is a worse ship for AI missions than ones I know can.

Offline FVA_C_ Blade_ XC

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Re: Clear the Air
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2004, 10:20:14 pm »
Come to think of it spilt tea was involved in the start of a war too.


No that was over-taxation ;D
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Offline likkerpig

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Re: Clear the Air
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2004, 10:23:47 pm »
Oy, where to begin...
Holocat, being an alcoholic does not mean I disengage my brain. I see the trend that is happening here and don't like it. I am cutting it off at the chase and calling to task those that make claims as yet unproven. Think what an a-hole I'd be if I wasn't a drunk.
Straw man is a common tactic in debates when a person is asked a question they don't want to answer so they direct the discussion in another direction. I have asked where D2/OP players have bashed people who play SFC3 several times over the last few days.... my question was always ignored. Always another topic was brought up to distract from the question: Strawman.
Blade, I did not intend this to be a flame fest, although it will probably turn out that way. Enough accusations and innuendo has been made the last few days that I wanted to see proof of it.
I've yet to see one iota of evidence.
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Offline Holocat

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Re: Clear the Air
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2004, 10:39:55 pm »
Ok.  Here's a small problem.

You're taking me seriously.

You're taking me seriously on a Dynaverse forum.

You're taking me seriously on a Dynaverse forum thread that went Off Topic at Post 5, which I think is gunning for a record.

I mean, to me, none of this really matters.  After all, if we can survive the fall of the company that made our game, we can survive pretty much anything that dosen't shut down the internet entirely.  All things pass in Dynaverse.net.

edit:  Hey, did I just make a strawman?  I'm aiming the discussion so wildly away from the topic any sane man would take my gun licence away.  I'm not debating anything though...

another edit:  Oh, and thanks Doggy for telling me what strawman was.  You too Piggy.

Yet another edit:  Oh, to the person that gave me my first bad karma point, this is proof that nothing can possibly be good on tv.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2004, 10:57:13 pm by Holocat »

Offline likkerpig

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Re: Clear the Air
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2004, 11:19:39 pm »
Ok.  Here's a small problem.

You're taking me seriously.

You're taking me seriously on a Dynaverse forum.

You're taking me seriously on a Dynaverse forum thread that went Off Topic at Post 5, which I think is gunning for a record.

I mean, to me, none of this really matters.  After all, if we can survive the fall of the company that made our game, we can survive pretty much anything that dosen't shut down the internet entirely.  All things pass in Dynaverse.net.

edit:  Hey, did I just make a strawman?  I'm aiming the discussion so wildly away from the topic any sane man would take my gun licence away.  I'm not debating anything though...

another edit:  Oh, and thanks Doggy for telling me what strawman was.  You too Piggy.

Yet another edit:  Oh, to the person that gave me my first bad karma point, this is proof that nothing can possibly be good on tv.


Holocat, sorry if I missed the humor. Look up any thread I've posted in... I'm usually the warped a-hole who says something off topic and stupid.
This crap really has me worked up though. I've been watching this from the beginning and seen the bs from the get go. I played nice, asked people to explain what they were talking about... no joy. And it keeps going and going. I started this thread for all those making accusations (yes even the banned ones who already have alters) to put up or shut up.
So far it is .... dead. I'll tear down any strawman arguement that shows up, which one particular crap disturber was fond of creating, as soon as it shows up.
Show me where OP players have crapped on you or stop making the statement. Simple isn't it.
"Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby."



Offline KBF-Dogmatix_XC

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Re: Clear the Air
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2004, 11:22:02 pm »
Know about!?  ;)


Now I spilt my tea again. It's things like that that start wars you know.


One can only hope...there's just not enough of that going around, these days!


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Offline likkerpig

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Re: Clear the Air
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2004, 02:06:59 am »
Yep, dried up and went away.
Think I proved my point, I'll go back to being a gibbering idiot.
"Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby."