Topic: David Gerrold: Roddenberry Disliked Berman !

[Chris SI]

We aern't the only ones who hate that jerk!

David Gerrold, who wrote the classic Star Trek episode "The Trouble With Tribbles" and the legendary guidebook The World of Star Trek, as well as episodes of Babylon 5, Sliders and other shows, plus a long-running column in a popular science fiction magazine, spoke extensively about his career and his frustrations with Star Trek: The Next Generation in a recent interview.

Gerrold alleged in his talk with TV Shows On DVD that Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry's mental health was failing near the end of his life, though he added that Paramount would not acknowledge it. The writer of "The Cloud Minders" and a sometime script doctor on the original series, he was originally hired as a producer on the fledgling Next Generation, "but they kept whittling my duties. And my title. And my pay."

Though a favourite with fans because of his episodes of the previous shows, "finally got the very clear message that Gene's lawyer didn't like me. And that whatever Gene promised me, the lawyer was going to take away." He believed that the lawyer, Leonard Maizlish, was afraid that Roddenberry could lose creative control of the show, "so what he was doing was significantly undermining everybody that might be a threat to Gene, so that he could stay in control."

Though Gerrold characterised Roddenberry as a heavy drinker who "could sit down with a bottle of Scotch and a ream of paper...and eight hours later he'd get up and he'd have a finished script and a half-empty bottle of scotch", he compared the show's creator to Ernest Hemingway and said that compared to Roddenberry, Rick Berman was brought in by the studio to manage the details. Gerrold said the studio had blamed Roddenberry for the failure of Star Trek: The Motion Picture, and "Gene didn't like Rick, at all. But Rick was installed on the show by the studio as a way to keep a control on the show...to keep the budgets in line, make sure that the scripts were done." Ultimately, said Gerrold, Berman ended up in control rather than Maizlish because Berman played the politics of the studio more effectively.

Officially a consultant in the Next Generation credits, Gerrold left and claimed that the studio lawyer harrassed him, claiming that he was mentally ill. Putting Star Trek behnd him, Gerrold said that he told himself, "'I am going to write the ten best books that I can, in the next ten years, and then ten years from now I'll look and see where am I.'" Fifteen years later, "I've got a Hugo and a Nebula and a Locus Readership Poll...I've got a lot of books in print. So there's all this stuff that wouldn't have been written if I had stayed with Star Trek." He also wrote scripts for other TV shows, including a remake of Land of the Lost.

Though Gerrold stated that Paramount denied working on a remake of "The Trouble With Tribbles" until TV Guide confirmed the news to him, he said that Berman ultimately invited him to appear as a crewmember in "Trials and Tribbleations", petting one of his furry creations. "I said, 'Look, Rick: there's enormous publicity here. I can be useful to you.' He got it. But apparently they thought I was at war with Star Trek over there. I'm not. I don't care. Give me a break; life is too short."

Gerrold said he had heard that Columbia House had the rights to the animated Star Trek and that no interviews had been conducted yet for a DVD release, but he expected it to be out by early next year. Asked what he thought should be done with Star Trek today, Gerrold said, "Star Trek, at its best, is when it remembers that it is about taking on the big challenge of considering the question, 'What does it mean to be a human being?'" He emphasised the need for episodes that tackled issues like ecology and the environment, like his own War Against the Chtorr.

In the first part of the interview, Gerrold discussed bringing Star Trek writers to Land of the Lost; in the second part, he discusses his film The Martian Child, in production by New Line Cinema. The excerpts above are from part three at TV Shows on DVD.[/b]

http://www.trektoday.com/news/300704_02.shtml

[Dash Jones]

But wasn't it Gene himself who granted the mantle to Berman?  Why would he do that to someone he didn't like?

[J. Carney]

But wasn't it Gene himself who granted the mantle to Berman?  Why would he do that to someone he didn't like?

Dash, sometimes you do things you regret later, right?

[Captain Pierce]

The thing that's always struck me as ironic is that TNG didn't get good until Season 3, when it was firmly under Berman's control and out of Gene's.  Yeah, the later years of TNG had already started the move toward the last-minute technobabble solution, but it hadn't quite gotten away from the writers yet like it would in Voyager.

OTOH, the argument could be made that TNG continued to work because of the characters that had been created by the original creative team; certainly, when they had to come up with their own group of characters, Berman & co. (IMO, anyway) failed miserably with the Voyager crew...

[Alidar Jarok]

Although I think I remember reading in "Star Trek: The Inside Story" that there was some guy in the Original Series who nobody (including Rodenberry) liked, but, because Rodenberry had picked him, he couldn't be gotten rid of.

[Chris SI]

Probaly William Shatner, Gene and him didn't get along at all.

[Hyperion]

Chris is right

i remeber reading that book as a kid and Shatner was not a well liked man on the set, but the fans loved him. By the time it was coming to a head TOS was cancelled anyways

[Alidar Jarok]

Probaly William Shatner, Gene and him didn't get along at all.

The person I'm talking about definately wasn't William Shatner.  He had a closer role to Desilu appointed supervisor than actor.

[Death_Merchant]

Probaly William Shatner, Gene and him didn't get along at all.

The person I'm talking about definately wasn't William Shatner.  He had a closer role to Desilu appointed supervisor than actor.

Gene Coon?
Died in '73 from lung cancer. Trek-writer-producer, acted as "studio adult supervision" according to Gerrold.
In other words: Coon was to TOS as Berman was to TNG

Not to say Gerrold is wrong about Berman, but he is hawking a book series. Remember, in Hollywood: controversy = free publicity
If you go to Gerrold's website and download the free copy of "The Trouble With Tribbles", you'll find the first 6 or so pages are a teaser for his new book.

[Chris SI]

The first two years of TNG when Gene was still running it DID suck, the stories were uneven, and the characters were not developed.

The concept of civilians on a starship would border on criminal indiference to their safety, as the Enterprise was always going into the unknown, or confronting enemies like the Romulans, Borg and such. Probaly the STUPIDEST concept in Trek history, yet its what Gene wanted.

They quietly stopped mentioning civilians and familes after year two, SOMETIMES, if the story required it, it was mentioned, but it was foolish, and Berman was correct to drop it in DS 9 and afterward.

My problem with berman isn't his TNG or DS 9 work, for Voyager on, he became an egomaniac, proclaiming he didn't care what fans thought, and ignoring canon as it suited him. Voyager was total crap until 7 of 9 showed up, and even afterward, was incredibly stupid at times. Enterprise has been uneven also, and Berman is the reason why.

[J. Carney]

The concept of civilians on a starship would border on criminal indiference to their safety, as the Enterprise was always going into the unknown, or confronting enemies like the Romulans, Borg and such. Probaly the STUPIDEST concept in Trek history, yet its what Gene wanted.

I would not say that it was 'criminal neglegence.' you are forgetting that the captians and officers of the larger sailing vessals often were allowed to bring wivers and young childern along for cruises that took them away from home for years. THere was even a gentleman's agreement between the captians of the British and French navies that they ewre not to shoot at the whaleboats that each ship towed behind during combat, this being where the lady's furnature was placed during battle to make room for the pair of cannon that often were placed in the captian's stateroom.

[Chris SI]

There was no point to doing it in Trek, Starships never seemed to travel to far from the Federation.

BTW, kids in the age of sail served usually as powerder monkees, and were killed and maimed often, and there was no protection in battle besides what the crew had, which is zilch.

It is indeed criminal to place civilalinas on a ship that will enter combat, when there is no reason for it outside of a dopey 'city in space' thing Gene wanted. It would be like putting familes on a modern aircraft carrier, there is no valid reason to do it.

[J. Carney]

There was no point to doing it in Trek, Starships never seemed to travel to far from the Federation.

BTW, kids in the age of sail served usually as powerder monkees, and were killed and maimed often, and there was no protection in battle besides what the crew had, which is zilch.

It is indeed criminal to place civilalinas on a ship that will enter combat, when there is no reason for it outside of a dopey 'city in space' thing Gene wanted. It would be like putting familes on a modern aircraft carrier, there is no valid reason to do it.

Well, you osmetimes take chances as a military family that are equal to those of the soldier himself (ask any family that has served a tour in Korea).

I can see why they would have allowed it, and I can see why gene wrote it into the story.

Good idea IMHO, not really. Plausable idea, yes.

[airBiscuit]

There was no point to doing it in Trek, Starships never seemed to travel to far from the Federation.

Even as the starships were bouncing about the Federation frontier, their occupants were still far away from their homes.  Consider the 5 year missions of the Constitution class ships.  Talk about being home-sick!

BTW, kids in the age of sail served usually as powerder monkees, and were killed and maimed often, and there was no protection in battle besides what the crew had, which is zilch.

As such, they were crew (and therefore combatants) on a warship.  The civilians on Enterprise D were  on a ship with a mission of peace and exploration.  Their role would be no different than the role of civilians in a city as far as their relation to servicemen.

It is indeed criminal to place civilalinas on a ship that will enter combat, when there is no reason for it outside of a dopey 'city in space' thing Gene wanted. It would be like putting familes on a modern aircraft carrier, there is no valid reason to do it.

The Enterprise D was an Explorer, not a battleship or carrier.  Though it could find itself in a conflict situation, it's original goal was not to patrol the neutral zone looking for combatants.  They weren't even in a state of war when the series started.  Given that situation, the Federation would have fallen back to its role of long missions abroad to discover new civilizations.  It's not too much of a stretch to imagine that people would be so accustomed to space travel, that servicemen taking their families with them would become commonplace.  A certain amount of risk would be accepted, but the promise of adventure would be alluring.  Space could very well become home for us in a couple of centuries.  Imagine looking out your office window each work day to see a new world before your eyes.

[Chris SI]

Since the Federation did not emply warships, but used dual purpose ships, I have to insist its criminal to place people in jeopardy simply to avoid 'homesickness.'

I also feel my combat ability would be severly impared if my wife and child were aboard my ship as it entered combat, this is not desireable, nor even logical.

I have to say it makes no sense at all, it is criminal to me.

[Magnum357]

Although I'm not sure you would consider this "Criminal", I do agree that is sure does seem like a big risk to bring your families on a Vessel that could be very far away from Home and possibly meet with very dangerous species that could possibly destroy you. 

I think the only reason why Gene put Families and heavy exploration into ST:TNG is to make people think of Star Trek as exploration and Future Utopia then as Space Combat.  I remember hearing reports years ago during 80's and 90's that Gene was very upset about SFB being such a Warlike game based on his TOS series.  Now I like SFB as it is a good game and feels more realistic then Star Trek, but maybe Gene didn't lilke it and wanted to keep TNG away from the "war-hawks" that love space battles.   This could be part of the reason why he wanted families on board the Ent-D, to show folks that Humans were beyound war like tendencies (which is sort of idiotic in my opinioin).

[EmeraldEdge]

Gene was always a utopia guy.   The Ent-D was more of a diplomatic vessel (the darn bridge looked more like a lounge than anything else).  I remember hearing about how he wanted Trek to be, but the studio kept saddling him with folks that would add in more of a military style.   Just look at the first Motion Picture.   The uniforms are anything but militaristic and the "enemy" wasn't another race, but "one of our own" and really it was all a situation that was a misunderstanding on the part of the enemy, as far as it's actions, and in the end it was all kind of a mamby pamby peace fest, with everybody winning, lol.   I'm sure that were Gene to have had his way with the show, whithout ingerference, they would rarely if at all have been in any kind of "real" conflict that would have posed a danger, they would have just gone out and solved squabbles between other races that were fighting with their super ship (no other race would likely have had a ship that could contend, since the Klingons were now our FRIENDS!?!?!) so the the actual danger factor would be out the window.

On a personal opinion side, I think the civillians onboard was a bad idea.   I mean when you come up against a situation, you don't want to have to go "OK, let's back off and unload all the civies and then come back".   Yeah, there was the saucer section evacuation thing, but you still put the civillians at risk, because some enemies (REAL Klingons, and Romulans) wouldn't give a rip and would attack that as well, after all it's got weapons on it doesn't it?  If it had really been a civillian escape vessel, then it would have next to no weaponry on it, and the battle section would have had the weaponry.  I've always enjoyed the more militaristic look of the ships and their interiors, I just find it more believable for a "Starfleet", even when they are just doing diplomatic thing.   I really hated the Ent-D, and it's interior.  I was a lot more pleased with TNG when the Soveriegn class showed up.

[Chris SI]

I harp on the civvie thing because it seems so silly.

On the shows, Star fleet is pretty much an elite, its hard to get in and stay in, so taking chances in exploration and possible combat would seem a given.

But standing next to the highly trained professional volunteers are six year old children? Doesn't look, feel, or sound right to me.

I do agree Gene wanted the 'wagon train to the stars' concept he originally pitched, but Trek was wrong for it, he should have tried another show.

[Dash Jones]

Since the Federation did not emply warships, but used dual purpose ships, I have to insist its criminal to place people in jeopardy simply to avoid 'homesickness.'

I also feel my combat ability would be severly impared if my wife and child were aboard my ship as it entered combat, this is not desireable, nor even logical.

I have to say it makes no sense at all, it is criminal to me.

Oh, I don't know,  people say that when one is defending one's home or one's family, especially when the danger is so close in proximity, they're typically bound to give more and be more ferocious than when the danger isn't so close.

[Magnum357]

You got a point their Dash, but I'm sure politically that would be an unfavorable policy of involving civilians in combat.

but the whole point here is that their clearly is a difference in opinion on how Star Trek should work between Gene and Berman.  Personally, I did not mind the way Gene wanted Star Trek to work, and I really didn't mind how Berman has a little more Militaristic "feel" (not a lot, but a little more then Gene) for Star Trek either.  That is why I did not mind DS9 and Voyager. 

I think most people are upset about Enterprise is that it completely conflicts with a lot "already established" history of Star Trek (unless you see Enterprise as a different Timeline as I do).  That is why they published the "Star Trek Encycolopedia" book, so that if you wanted to make pre-quel you have some historical basis to go by.  Even Lucas did this with Star Wars, I don't see why Braga and Berman won't reference previous Star Trek shows.  Ya, the old special effects from the 60's probably wouldn't fly today, but you can really fancy up old tech from the 60's with some imagination.  And ya, their are a lot of inconsistancies with old shows (especailly TOS), but those loop holes can be filled in fairly easily with some thought.