Topic: David Gerrold: Roddenberry Disliked Berman !

[Magnum357]

Or maybe we should look at it this way.  Maybe ships councelers are the Federations versions of "Political Officers" to keep their captains from getting out of hand.  LOL   

Ok, I was joking on that one.

[Captain Pierce]

Even before Troi took the command test that Rolling mentioned, and became fully certified as a command officer, she was still somewhere in the chain of command, becuase in the episode where the Enterprise was disabled by the superstring fragment, O'Brien deferred to her as the ranking officer--and that was when O'Brien was still a Lieutenant.   

[J. Carney]

Even before Troi took the command test that Rolling mentioned, and became fully certified as a command officer, she was still somewhere in the chain of command, becuase in the episode where the Enterprise was disabled by the superstring fragment, O'Brien deferred to her as the ranking officer--and that was when O'Brien was still a Lieutenant.   

O'Brian was an officer?

WHere did 'Cheif' come from?

[Chris Johnson]

Chief is a rank, Chief Petty Officer to be exact.

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/DS9/character/1112439.html

O'brien is a "non-commissioned officer."

[Magnum357]

Correct.  O'brein was never an Officer, that is why Bashire in DS9 had rank over him (technically) even though it never showed much in DS9 since they practically were freinds.  This is what I was referring to above, we see enlisted men in Star Trek from time to time (O'brein as a Cheif and other crewmen), their must be some sort of enlistment program in Starfleet if you don't want to go through the academy system.

[Dash Jones]

I think O'Brien still went to the Academy for around two years or such...can't recall where I heard that though.

[Chris SI]

Miles wore an Ensign's rank on TNG and in the early episodes of DS 9, he was called chief because he was the Enterprise's transporter cheif. and DS 9's cheif engineer.
Somewhere in the DS 9 run, they decided he was a non-com (something new in Star Trek, previously there was only officers and crewmen) and changed his color insignia to a naval chief's.

Miles as an 'Ensign' from STTNG


Miles with his now familiar 'chief' insignia.

[J. Carney]

Chief is a rank, Chief Petty Officer to be exact.

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/DS9/character/1112439.html

O'brien is a "non-commissioned officer."

Right- O'Brian was the COB (Chief of the Boat, most senior Chief Petty Officer) for the Enterprise... or at least that was his original job. I was just wondering if he had gotten promoted somewhere along the line.

[Captain Pierce]

"Chief" O'Brien, as Chris SI said, originally came from him being the Transporter Chief, not any sort of rank.  I remember him, through most of TNG, wearing Lieutenant's pips, not Ensign as that picture shows, though.  (Aside from his first couple of appearances, most notably in "Encounter at Farpoint," where he was wearing Ensign pips and command red.  )  At any rate, the sense I got from TNG was definitely that he was an officer--he was tactical officer, remember, on the Rutledge.  (Although of course we can argue the semantics of that one all day...  )  It was when they moved him to DS9 that they decided to make "Chief" a rank, although it's unclear what exactly the full rank was--"Senior Chief Specialist" was used in dialogue once, but then the producers decided they didn't like it after all.

That said, I do kind of like the concept of Starfleet having enlisted personnel as well--if there's as many starships and starbases as DS9 and TNG respectively seemed to imply, there's no way they're going to be able to process every person on every one of them through four years at one facility on Earth... 

[J. Carney]

There are most definately enlisted ranks in Star Trek.

In St:TMP, when Lt. Ilea got snatched, Decker called for a 'Chief DeFalco' who bore no officer's rank on her uniform to man the helm.

In ST6:TUK, when they are searching for the crewman who's mag-boots were used in the assination of Gorkon, they go to a locker room full of enlisted men and address one (the guy with the screwy lookin feet) directly as "Crewman." Actually, both pairs of boots were stolen form ratings.

Those are just 2 instances off the top of my head where EM's are mentioned. I think that the guys in coveralls in TOS were also supposed to be enlisted men.

I think that O'Brian was supposed to be the COB for Enterprise, but they didn't make any special rank pins for him till DS9.

[Chris SI]

The enlisted rank was definately an add-on in the TNG series of shows, DS 9 created it.

"Cheif" ranks are mentioned in TOS, as Yeoman IS an elisted rank, and we all know that Rand was there (how could you miss her?)

I believe enlisted ranks were over-looked in TNG, so it was added to DS 9, as it makes perfect sense.

[J. Carney]

How did she slip my mind?

"Cheif" ranks are mentioned in TOS, as Yeoman IS an elisted rank, and we all know that Rand was there (how could you miss her?)

Well, there are people in this word who are blind and some (for some ungodly reason) don't like girls.

As for everbody else... no possible way, not with those gams.

[Magnum357]

Ya, I remember a few times during early TNG that O'brien did have officer insignia, but I have to imagine that this was an oversite in TNG.  Like what was said above, I find it hard to beleive that you could not operate as many vessels without Enlisted men. 

[Hyperion]

The enlisted rank was definately an add-on in the TNG series of shows, DS 9 created it.

"Cheif" ranks are mentioned in TOS, as Yeoman IS an elisted rank, and we all know that Rand was there (how could you miss her?)

I believe enlisted ranks were over-looked in TNG, so it was added to DS 9, as it makes perfect sense.

But didnt she wear the pips of a Lt. commander in ST3: TSFS?...i mean im all for promotion but even if you take the supposed 10-20 year gap from the end of TOS to ST3 jumping from "yeoman" to a full Lt. commander is one hell of a career. It takes as long just to make Lt. Cmmder if youre an officer much less an NCO. And she was wearing "command" white in that piece of the moview too

Makes you think

[Captain Pierce]

My knowledge of naval terminology is a bit limited, but I was always under the impression that "Yeoman" wasn't a rank per se, but a positition--the Captain's "secretary," for lack of a better term.

[Alidar Jarok]

Check out this site

The Cage and WNMHGB

I'd link the TOS stuff, but they don't show anything for Enlisted Personel, not that they had anything (Ensign didn't have anything either).

TMP

TWOK
Janice Rand is listed as Chief Petty Officer

Early TNG

Later TNG

DS9

And, just for the hell of it:

Enterprise

[Dash Jones]

Check out this site

The Cage and WNMHGB

I'd link the TOS stuff, but they don't show anything for Enlisted Personel, not that they had anything (Ensign didn't have anything either).

TMP

TWOK
Janice Rand is listed as Chief Petty Officer

Early TNG

Later TNG

DS9

And, just for the hell of it:

Enterprise

Good post!

[J. Carney]

From the TMP credist:

Marcy Lafferty    ....    Chief DiFalco

So we have a warrent officer here as well (since Rand is listed as a CPO, if DiFalco was a chief petty officer and not a 'Chief' (warrent officer) she would have been listed as such.

And from STVI

Michael Snyder    ....    Crewman Dax

Now, we have enlisted men AND warrent officers in TOS/TMP.

I doubt that Starfleet did away with the enlisted ranks totally in 80 years and then brought them back again in the 10 that it took O'Brian to get to DS9. So I say he was a CPO and they were just too lazy to make up a new rank pin.

[Chris SI]

I think that it was just an oversite, and sometime during DS 9, somebody figured it would be cool if miles was a petty officer, instead of a commishioned ifficer.

[Chris Johnson]

Ever notice the little gold pip that is more like a golden ring with a black center?  That rank pip alone is (Senior/Master) Chief Petty Officer, as of the entire TNG series, if you exclude the movies and spinoffs of the TNG series.  I guess in real life, some people thought it would be nice to look into the enlisted men and warrant officers more... For the ST universe... In TNG, that rank pip alone was enough for a rank of (Senior/Master) CPO, but how could you tell the difference?  I guess it took Starfleet twenty years to find a talor that makes ranks a little easier to tell apart for the newbies to rank.

Please note that I am no expert in ranks, and have no idea what people in TNG and DS9 planned out in ranks...

Where did those new rank pins come from in Voyager?  I know Spike's site explains it in a canonical way... It's to tell the difference between Maquis and normal Starfleet personell, right?