Topic: David Gerrold: Roddenberry Disliked Berman !

[Dash Jones]

You got a point their Dash, but I'm sure politically that would be an unfavorable policy of involving civilians in combat.

but the whole point here is that their clearly is a difference in opinion on how Star Trek should work between Gene and Berman.  Personally, I did not mind the way Gene wanted Star Trek to work, and I really didn't mind how Berman has a little more Militaristic "feel" (not a lot, but a little more then Gene) for Star Trek either.  That is why I did not mind DS9 and Voyager. 

I think most people are upset about Enterprise is that it completely conflicts with a lot "already established" history of Star Trek (unless you see Enterprise as a different Timeline as I do).  That is why they published the "Star Trek Encycolopedia" book, so that if you wanted to make pre-quel you have some historical basis to go by.  Even Lucas did this with Star Wars, I don't see why Braga and Berman won't reference previous Star Trek shows.  Ya, the old special effects from the 60's probably wouldn't fly today, but you can really fancy up old tech from the 60's with some imagination.  And ya, their are a lot of inconsistancies with old shows (especailly TOS), but those loop holes can be filled in fairly easily with some thought.

This is true...look at Wrath of Kahn afterall.  They still have the funky colors of pastels on the Reliant, and the old helm type controls, but it looks nice to current standards.

[Chris SI]

DS 9 did a brilliant episode where the crew interacted with the TOS episode "The trouble with Tribbles," they even made a new model of the Enterprise for it.

BTW, having family close by IS a detriment, becuase you are not fully concentrating on your job (you CANNOT escape human nature) if you are worried about the saftey of loved ones hinging on your actions. All that does is build extra stress.

[Chris Johnson]

I love it how we argue about a fictional government (made by a fine Utopia guy) and its actions...

I have mixed feelings about the situation with families onboard Enterprise-D in TNG.  It has its pros and cons, both listed in this argument quite nicely.  I really have no idea what to choose and how to argue, but I keep in mind that if this fictional government were real, I'd consider the fact that I'm about three-to-four-hundred years more primitive than a utopia society on Earth that has lasted for centuries after I am dead.  Even if this fictional utopia was dreamed of by a guy as primitive as you or I, I'd still think that.  That's why I can't give an honest and reasonable response here.
And if you feel lonely and crazy in a starship without a family, how much help do you honestly think a ship's counselor (I.E. Troi, Marina Sitris's TNG Character) would be?  In war, what do soldiers really value that keeps their moral high and spirits from breaking?  Letters from loved ones, right?  I would...

[EmeraldEdge]

In war, what do soldiers really value that keeps their moral high and spirits from breaking?  Letters from loved ones, right?  I would...

You mean it's not the necklace of ears they wear around their necks?

[Chris SI]

The fun of Trek is talking about it, its more interesting than talking real politics, which is problamatic at best.

[airBiscuit]

And if you feel lonely and crazy in a starship without a family, how much help do you honestly think a ship's counselor (I.E. Troi, Marina Sitris's TNG Character) would be?

Hmmmmmm...let me think about *that* one for a bit........

 

[J. Carney]

And if you feel lonely and crazy in a starship without a family, how much help do you honestly think a ship's counselor (I.E. Troi, Marina Sitris's TNG Character) would be?

Hmmmmmm...let me think about *that* one for a bit........

 

How much would having a female with a butt like that do for me...

WORLDS my friend- especially if she doesn't have any compunctions about fooling around with the ranks.

[EmeraldEdge]

Especially since she wasn't initially a member of Starfleet, correct?  That means that she's totally up for grabs!   She just shouldn't have been allowed on the bridge.  How useful was she really?   Enemy fires full spread of weapons and all she can come up with is "Captain, I'm sensing hostility".   Really?  Wow, thanks counselor. heh.

[Chris SI]

She was always a member of Starfleet, but Picard allowed her to dress differently.

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

But wasn't it Gene himself who granted the mantle to Berman?  Why would he do that to someone he didn't like?

The latrest thinking is that Genes health had declined after the first few seasons of TNG and the first Star Trek movie was not a complte financial success.  However Berman has been blamed for "pushing him out" by a few of the former production people associatyed with TNG.

Who knows...

[EmeraldEdge]

She was always a member of Starfleet, but Picard allowed her to dress differently.

You sure about that?  I could have sworn there was something about Betazeds not being allowed in Starfleet because of their Psychic abilities or something, but that changed later.  Now I'm going to have to go look it up I suppose.

[Chris Johnson]

Here's a pic I Googled.  Notice the uniform?  Notice the three little pips?  That alone means she had been in Starfleet for years, especially if you notice the pips indicating her rank is Lieutenuant-Commander.  Also, as a counselor, she is a profession of keeping everyone's mental health stable.  Wouldn't it be a profession of medicine, in a way?  Realistically she could try to help me, but then it's like trying to help Barclay, I'd probably wouldn't be getting much help;  I'd be probably hiding in the holodeck.  But that's me.
I could care less for lust, Carney.  Love?  Probably.  Not lust, if anything it'd add more problems to my mental health while being away in space from what I care about the most, whatever it would be then hypothetically.

Reviewing the whole subject, we've gone through three subjects already: What Gene and Berman thought of each other, "Children on the Enterprise?"/"I'm not a family man, Riker..." -- Quoting Picard twice on two different episodes, summarizing families on starships, and the latest debate about Counseling on a Starship.  Sometimes I love how the topic changes in a thread.

[EmeraldEdge]

Yeah, I guess you are right.   I looked it up on Star Trek.com and came up with:

During her original Enterprise posting she had preferred wearing non-regulation clothing as a calming influence on those about her, but following temporary commander Jellico's order to don a uniform in 2369, she began to make it habit...

I wonder what show I was thinking of then.  Oh, well. (or maybe they changed it on me, yeah that's got to be it )

[Chris Johnson]

Perhaps you were thinking of Seven of Nine in Voyager and (BIG *Gasp* since I'm no fan of the show) T'pol of Akiraprise?

[Magnum357]

Actually, he might be right.  I thought i vaguelly recall an episode (in season one perhaps?) where it was stated that Troi was just a civilian.  But who knows, its clearly obvious later that she is indeed a Starfleet Officer.  hell, by the end of TNG, she is a full Commander!  In my opinion, I would have to imagine her as a Starfleet Officer becasue she technically has Medical skills much like the Cheif Medical officer.  I find it highly doubtful Starfleet would not want even its councelers to be Starfleet personel.  In an emergency, Troi might know basic medical skills in her Academy (or whatever Starfleet Training) she may have gotten.  And this brings up another point, do all Starfleet personel HAVE to go through academy training?  We see in many episodes (even Cheif O'brein) that you don't need to go to Starfleet Academy to get into Starfleet.  Perhaps Troi went though an "ROCT" school or something like that that was in conjuction to her schooling in Medicine/Psycology.  She might not be the best trained officer in Starfleet, but enough to be considered certified.  Heck, right now I'm working on a Federation Police Cutter Model (from SFB) where the design is based off of a concept I have always thought the Federation would have.  Why not a type of "Guard" branch that works similar to the Coast Gaurd we have today?  If you had a branch like this, you might need a lot more personel to fill in roles of the Federation that Academies couldn't provide (ie. Enlisted men, Non-commisioned officers, "ROTC" type of Starfleet Officers, possible Civilian experts, etc.).

man, I'm getting off subject here.  As for Troi's use on the Enterprise, during peace time, I could easily see her role as being useful, but during times of War, probably not, unless she has enough other skills to be useful in a war effort.

[Rolling]

If you remember, Troi took the "captain's test", after Crusher was given control of the bridge, to be better prepared in the event of an emergency.

Also, she could successfully take the helm and fly the Enterprise into another ship at Picard's request. 

She was useful during "war times" when there was verbal contact; giving Picard insight into the emotional state of his adversary.

But she sure did look like a galactic cheerleader the first year!!!!  I'm so glad they changed her appearance.

[EmeraldEdge]

Perhaps you were thinking of Seven of Nine in Voyager and (BIG *Gasp* since I'm no fan of the show) T'pol of Akiraprise?

Heh, nope.  It was definitely something from that era of TV SciFi (there was a lot of one season/half season crap that came out around then so it could have been anything I guess).

Something in my mind still thinks it was Troi though, and I guess Magnum sorta recalls a reference to it as well.  I wish I could remember it better.

[Rolling]

You are probably correct.

In Star Trek, there were a lot of contradictions and backpeddling to correct, or change, events to meet their current goals.

They used time travel, space/time continuum shifts, mirror universes, time bubbles, etc. to make adjustments in scripts that they otherwise could not change.

Sometimes, like the Klingons, they just made the change and did not worry about explaining it.

So, I do not doubt that you had read that Troi was originally suppose to be a civilian to begin with.

[Chris SI]

She was always Star fleet, but her rank was NOT in the chain of command, much like a Doctor (McCoy was a Lt Cmd, yet not in the command chain) so Picard allowewd her to dress as she liked.

Dr Crusher took and passed the command test, allowing her to be part of the command chain, Troy did this later, only passing when she realized that sometimes you have to order people to die to save others (in her case, Geordi in a simulation).

It was indeed Captain Jellicoe that made Deanna wear a service uniform, as he preferred 'a certain decorum on the bridge.'

[Magnum357]

This actually does make a LOT of sense now.  Technically, Troi has the authority to relieve command of even the Captain of the Enterprise yet during the first few seasons she had no command control of personel.  This makes sense because if your in a Military structure, its not good to give someone a higher authority over the Captain (which is suppose to be the "Law of the sea" in Navies) without some sort of check and balance.  Think about it!  Troi has the technical power to releive the entire command staff if she wanted to (she only has to prove it later to Starfleet) that the entire command staff is unfit for duty and releive them.  That is why she is not in the command structure per-say, but in a way she is sort of needed because who is going to police the other command officers if the counseler suspects a mutiniy or something like that by the first officer or someone else.  It also puts a check to the captain aswell as no one else is going to question the authority of the Captain. 

So in a way, in this whole discussion, she may be a Civilian by practice AND a Command officer by technicallity.  I guess we may be all right.