Topic: David Gerrold: Roddenberry Disliked Berman !

[Chris SI]

We aern't the only ones who hate that jerk!

David Gerrold, who wrote the classic Star Trek episode "The Trouble With Tribbles" and the legendary guidebook The World of Star Trek, as well as episodes of Babylon 5, Sliders and other shows, plus a long-running column in a popular science fiction magazine, spoke extensively about his career and his frustrations with Star Trek: The Next Generation in a recent interview.

Gerrold alleged in his talk with TV Shows On DVD that Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry's mental health was failing near the end of his life, though he added that Paramount would not acknowledge it. The writer of "The Cloud Minders" and a sometime script doctor on the original series, he was originally hired as a producer on the fledgling Next Generation, "but they kept whittling my duties. And my title. And my pay."

Though a favourite with fans because of his episodes of the previous shows, "finally got the very clear message that Gene's lawyer didn't like me. And that whatever Gene promised me, the lawyer was going to take away." He believed that the lawyer, Leonard Maizlish, was afraid that Roddenberry could lose creative control of the show, "so what he was doing was significantly undermining everybody that might be a threat to Gene, so that he could stay in control."

Though Gerrold characterised Roddenberry as a heavy drinker who "could sit down with a bottle of Scotch and a ream of paper...and eight hours later he'd get up and he'd have a finished script and a half-empty bottle of scotch", he compared the show's creator to Ernest Hemingway and said that compared to Roddenberry, Rick Berman was brought in by the studio to manage the details. Gerrold said the studio had blamed Roddenberry for the failure of Star Trek: The Motion Picture, and "Gene didn't like Rick, at all. But Rick was installed on the show by the studio as a way to keep a control on the show...to keep the budgets in line, make sure that the scripts were done." Ultimately, said Gerrold, Berman ended up in control rather than Maizlish because Berman played the politics of the studio more effectively.

Officially a consultant in the Next Generation credits, Gerrold left and claimed that the studio lawyer harrassed him, claiming that he was mentally ill. Putting Star Trek behnd him, Gerrold said that he told himself, "'I am going to write the ten best books that I can, in the next ten years, and then ten years from now I'll look and see where am I.'" Fifteen years later, "I've got a Hugo and a Nebula and a Locus Readership Poll...I've got a lot of books in print. So there's all this stuff that wouldn't have been written if I had stayed with Star Trek." He also wrote scripts for other TV shows, including a remake of Land of the Lost.

Though Gerrold stated that Paramount denied working on a remake of "The Trouble With Tribbles" until TV Guide confirmed the news to him, he said that Berman ultimately invited him to appear as a crewmember in "Trials and Tribbleations", petting one of his furry creations. "I said, 'Look, Rick: there's enormous publicity here. I can be useful to you.' He got it. But apparently they thought I was at war with Star Trek over there. I'm not. I don't care. Give me a break; life is too short."

Gerrold said he had heard that Columbia House had the rights to the animated Star Trek and that no interviews had been conducted yet for a DVD release, but he expected it to be out by early next year. Asked what he thought should be done with Star Trek today, Gerrold said, "Star Trek, at its best, is when it remembers that it is about taking on the big challenge of considering the question, 'What does it mean to be a human being?'" He emphasised the need for episodes that tackled issues like ecology and the environment, like his own War Against the Chtorr.

In the first part of the interview, Gerrold discussed bringing Star Trek writers to Land of the Lost; in the second part, he discusses his film The Martian Child, in production by New Line Cinema. The excerpts above are from part three at TV Shows on DVD.[/b]

http://www.trektoday.com/news/300704_02.shtml

[Dash Jones]

But wasn't it Gene himself who granted the mantle to Berman?  Why would he do that to someone he didn't like?

[J. Carney]

But wasn't it Gene himself who granted the mantle to Berman?  Why would he do that to someone he didn't like?

Dash, sometimes you do things you regret later, right?

[Captain Pierce]

The thing that's always struck me as ironic is that TNG didn't get good until Season 3, when it was firmly under Berman's control and out of Gene's.  Yeah, the later years of TNG had already started the move toward the last-minute technobabble solution, but it hadn't quite gotten away from the writers yet like it would in Voyager.

OTOH, the argument could be made that TNG continued to work because of the characters that had been created by the original creative team; certainly, when they had to come up with their own group of characters, Berman & co. (IMO, anyway) failed miserably with the Voyager crew...

[Alidar Jarok]

Although I think I remember reading in "Star Trek: The Inside Story" that there was some guy in the Original Series who nobody (including Rodenberry) liked, but, because Rodenberry had picked him, he couldn't be gotten rid of.

[Chris SI]

Probaly William Shatner, Gene and him didn't get along at all.

[Hyperion]

Chris is right

i remeber reading that book as a kid and Shatner was not a well liked man on the set, but the fans loved him. By the time it was coming to a head TOS was cancelled anyways

[Alidar Jarok]

Probaly William Shatner, Gene and him didn't get along at all.

The person I'm talking about definately wasn't William Shatner.  He had a closer role to Desilu appointed supervisor than actor.

[Death_Merchant]

Probaly William Shatner, Gene and him didn't get along at all.

The person I'm talking about definately wasn't William Shatner.  He had a closer role to Desilu appointed supervisor than actor.

Gene Coon?
Died in '73 from lung cancer. Trek-writer-producer, acted as "studio adult supervision" according to Gerrold.
In other words: Coon was to TOS as Berman was to TNG

Not to say Gerrold is wrong about Berman, but he is hawking a book series. Remember, in Hollywood: controversy = free publicity
If you go to Gerrold's website and download the free copy of "The Trouble With Tribbles", you'll find the first 6 or so pages are a teaser for his new book.

[Chris SI]

The first two years of TNG when Gene was still running it DID suck, the stories were uneven, and the characters were not developed.

The concept of civilians on a starship would border on criminal indiference to their safety, as the Enterprise was always going into the unknown, or confronting enemies like the Romulans, Borg and such. Probaly the STUPIDEST concept in Trek history, yet its what Gene wanted.

They quietly stopped mentioning civilians and familes after year two, SOMETIMES, if the story required it, it was mentioned, but it was foolish, and Berman was correct to drop it in DS 9 and afterward.

My problem with berman isn't his TNG or DS 9 work, for Voyager on, he became an egomaniac, proclaiming he didn't care what fans thought, and ignoring canon as it suited him. Voyager was total crap until 7 of 9 showed up, and even afterward, was incredibly stupid at times. Enterprise has been uneven also, and Berman is the reason why.

[J. Carney]

The concept of civilians on a starship would border on criminal indiference to their safety, as the Enterprise was always going into the unknown, or confronting enemies like the Romulans, Borg and such. Probaly the STUPIDEST concept in Trek history, yet its what Gene wanted.

I would not say that it was 'criminal neglegence.' you are forgetting that the captians and officers of the larger sailing vessals often were allowed to bring wivers and young childern along for cruises that took them away from home for years. THere was even a gentleman's agreement between the captians of the British and French navies that they ewre not to shoot at the whaleboats that each ship towed behind during combat, this being where the lady's furnature was placed during battle to make room for the pair of cannon that often were placed in the captian's stateroom.

[Chris SI]

There was no point to doing it in Trek, Starships never seemed to travel to far from the Federation.

BTW, kids in the age of sail served usually as powerder monkees, and were killed and maimed often, and there was no protection in battle besides what the crew had, which is zilch.

It is indeed criminal to place civilalinas on a ship that will enter combat, when there is no reason for it outside of a dopey 'city in space' thing Gene wanted. It would be like putting familes on a modern aircraft carrier, there is no valid reason to do it.

[J. Carney]

There was no point to doing it in Trek, Starships never seemed to travel to far from the Federation.

BTW, kids in the age of sail served usually as powerder monkees, and were killed and maimed often, and there was no protection in battle besides what the crew had, which is zilch.

It is indeed criminal to place civilalinas on a ship that will enter combat, when there is no reason for it outside of a dopey 'city in space' thing Gene wanted. It would be like putting familes on a modern aircraft carrier, there is no valid reason to do it.

Well, you osmetimes take chances as a military family that are equal to those of the soldier himself (ask any family that has served a tour in Korea).

I can see why they would have allowed it, and I can see why gene wrote it into the story.

Good idea IMHO, not really. Plausable idea, yes.

[airBiscuit]

There was no point to doing it in Trek, Starships never seemed to travel to far from the Federation.

Even as the starships were bouncing about the Federation frontier, their occupants were still far away from their homes.  Consider the 5 year missions of the Constitution class ships.  Talk about being home-sick!

BTW, kids in the age of sail served usually as powerder monkees, and were killed and maimed often, and there was no protection in battle besides what the crew had, which is zilch.

As such, they were crew (and therefore combatants) on a warship.  The civilians on Enterprise D were  on a ship with a mission of peace and exploration.  Their role would be no different than the role of civilians in a city as far as their relation to servicemen.

It is indeed criminal to place civilalinas on a ship that will enter combat, when there is no reason for it outside of a dopey 'city in space' thing Gene wanted. It would be like putting familes on a modern aircraft carrier, there is no valid reason to do it.

The Enterprise D was an Explorer, not a battleship or carrier.  Though it could find itself in a conflict situation, it's original goal was not to patrol the neutral zone looking for combatants.  They weren't even in a state of war when the series started.  Given that situation, the Federation would have fallen back to its role of long missions abroad to discover new civilizations.  It's not too much of a stretch to imagine that people would be so accustomed to space travel, that servicemen taking their families with them would become commonplace.  A certain amount of risk would be accepted, but the promise of adventure would be alluring.  Space could very well become home for us in a couple of centuries.  Imagine looking out your office window each work day to see a new world before your eyes.

[Chris SI]

Since the Federation did not emply warships, but used dual purpose ships, I have to insist its criminal to place people in jeopardy simply to avoid 'homesickness.'

I also feel my combat ability would be severly impared if my wife and child were aboard my ship as it entered combat, this is not desireable, nor even logical.

I have to say it makes no sense at all, it is criminal to me.

[Magnum357]

Although I'm not sure you would consider this "Criminal", I do agree that is sure does seem like a big risk to bring your families on a Vessel that could be very far away from Home and possibly meet with very dangerous species that could possibly destroy you. 

I think the only reason why Gene put Families and heavy exploration into ST:TNG is to make people think of Star Trek as exploration and Future Utopia then as Space Combat.  I remember hearing reports years ago during 80's and 90's that Gene was very upset about SFB being such a Warlike game based on his TOS series.  Now I like SFB as it is a good game and feels more realistic then Star Trek, but maybe Gene didn't lilke it and wanted to keep TNG away from the "war-hawks" that love space battles.   This could be part of the reason why he wanted families on board the Ent-D, to show folks that Humans were beyound war like tendencies (which is sort of idiotic in my opinioin).

[EmeraldEdge]

Gene was always a utopia guy.   The Ent-D was more of a diplomatic vessel (the darn bridge looked more like a lounge than anything else).  I remember hearing about how he wanted Trek to be, but the studio kept saddling him with folks that would add in more of a military style.   Just look at the first Motion Picture.   The uniforms are anything but militaristic and the "enemy" wasn't another race, but "one of our own" and really it was all a situation that was a misunderstanding on the part of the enemy, as far as it's actions, and in the end it was all kind of a mamby pamby peace fest, with everybody winning, lol.   I'm sure that were Gene to have had his way with the show, whithout ingerference, they would rarely if at all have been in any kind of "real" conflict that would have posed a danger, they would have just gone out and solved squabbles between other races that were fighting with their super ship (no other race would likely have had a ship that could contend, since the Klingons were now our FRIENDS!?!?!) so the the actual danger factor would be out the window.

On a personal opinion side, I think the civillians onboard was a bad idea.   I mean when you come up against a situation, you don't want to have to go "OK, let's back off and unload all the civies and then come back".   Yeah, there was the saucer section evacuation thing, but you still put the civillians at risk, because some enemies (REAL Klingons, and Romulans) wouldn't give a rip and would attack that as well, after all it's got weapons on it doesn't it?  If it had really been a civillian escape vessel, then it would have next to no weaponry on it, and the battle section would have had the weaponry.  I've always enjoyed the more militaristic look of the ships and their interiors, I just find it more believable for a "Starfleet", even when they are just doing diplomatic thing.   I really hated the Ent-D, and it's interior.  I was a lot more pleased with TNG when the Soveriegn class showed up.

[Chris SI]

I harp on the civvie thing because it seems so silly.

On the shows, Star fleet is pretty much an elite, its hard to get in and stay in, so taking chances in exploration and possible combat would seem a given.

But standing next to the highly trained professional volunteers are six year old children? Doesn't look, feel, or sound right to me.

I do agree Gene wanted the 'wagon train to the stars' concept he originally pitched, but Trek was wrong for it, he should have tried another show.

[Dash Jones]

Since the Federation did not emply warships, but used dual purpose ships, I have to insist its criminal to place people in jeopardy simply to avoid 'homesickness.'

I also feel my combat ability would be severly impared if my wife and child were aboard my ship as it entered combat, this is not desireable, nor even logical.

I have to say it makes no sense at all, it is criminal to me.

Oh, I don't know,  people say that when one is defending one's home or one's family, especially when the danger is so close in proximity, they're typically bound to give more and be more ferocious than when the danger isn't so close.

[Magnum357]

You got a point their Dash, but I'm sure politically that would be an unfavorable policy of involving civilians in combat.

but the whole point here is that their clearly is a difference in opinion on how Star Trek should work between Gene and Berman.  Personally, I did not mind the way Gene wanted Star Trek to work, and I really didn't mind how Berman has a little more Militaristic "feel" (not a lot, but a little more then Gene) for Star Trek either.  That is why I did not mind DS9 and Voyager. 

I think most people are upset about Enterprise is that it completely conflicts with a lot "already established" history of Star Trek (unless you see Enterprise as a different Timeline as I do).  That is why they published the "Star Trek Encycolopedia" book, so that if you wanted to make pre-quel you have some historical basis to go by.  Even Lucas did this with Star Wars, I don't see why Braga and Berman won't reference previous Star Trek shows.  Ya, the old special effects from the 60's probably wouldn't fly today, but you can really fancy up old tech from the 60's with some imagination.  And ya, their are a lot of inconsistancies with old shows (especailly TOS), but those loop holes can be filled in fairly easily with some thought.

[Dash Jones]

You got a point their Dash, but I'm sure politically that would be an unfavorable policy of involving civilians in combat.

but the whole point here is that their clearly is a difference in opinion on how Star Trek should work between Gene and Berman.  Personally, I did not mind the way Gene wanted Star Trek to work, and I really didn't mind how Berman has a little more Militaristic "feel" (not a lot, but a little more then Gene) for Star Trek either.  That is why I did not mind DS9 and Voyager. 

I think most people are upset about Enterprise is that it completely conflicts with a lot "already established" history of Star Trek (unless you see Enterprise as a different Timeline as I do).  That is why they published the "Star Trek Encycolopedia" book, so that if you wanted to make pre-quel you have some historical basis to go by.  Even Lucas did this with Star Wars, I don't see why Braga and Berman won't reference previous Star Trek shows.  Ya, the old special effects from the 60's probably wouldn't fly today, but you can really fancy up old tech from the 60's with some imagination.  And ya, their are a lot of inconsistancies with old shows (especailly TOS), but those loop holes can be filled in fairly easily with some thought.

This is true...look at Wrath of Kahn afterall.  They still have the funky colors of pastels on the Reliant, and the old helm type controls, but it looks nice to current standards.

[Chris SI]

DS 9 did a brilliant episode where the crew interacted with the TOS episode "The trouble with Tribbles," they even made a new model of the Enterprise for it.

BTW, having family close by IS a detriment, becuase you are not fully concentrating on your job (you CANNOT escape human nature) if you are worried about the saftey of loved ones hinging on your actions. All that does is build extra stress.

[Chris Johnson]

I love it how we argue about a fictional government (made by a fine Utopia guy) and its actions...

I have mixed feelings about the situation with families onboard Enterprise-D in TNG.  It has its pros and cons, both listed in this argument quite nicely.  I really have no idea what to choose and how to argue, but I keep in mind that if this fictional government were real, I'd consider the fact that I'm about three-to-four-hundred years more primitive than a utopia society on Earth that has lasted for centuries after I am dead.  Even if this fictional utopia was dreamed of by a guy as primitive as you or I, I'd still think that.  That's why I can't give an honest and reasonable response here.
And if you feel lonely and crazy in a starship without a family, how much help do you honestly think a ship's counselor (I.E. Troi, Marina Sitris's TNG Character) would be?  In war, what do soldiers really value that keeps their moral high and spirits from breaking?  Letters from loved ones, right?  I would...

[EmeraldEdge]

In war, what do soldiers really value that keeps their moral high and spirits from breaking?  Letters from loved ones, right?  I would...

You mean it's not the necklace of ears they wear around their necks?

[Chris SI]

The fun of Trek is talking about it, its more interesting than talking real politics, which is problamatic at best.

[airBiscuit]

And if you feel lonely and crazy in a starship without a family, how much help do you honestly think a ship's counselor (I.E. Troi, Marina Sitris's TNG Character) would be?

Hmmmmmm...let me think about *that* one for a bit........

 

[J. Carney]

And if you feel lonely and crazy in a starship without a family, how much help do you honestly think a ship's counselor (I.E. Troi, Marina Sitris's TNG Character) would be?

Hmmmmmm...let me think about *that* one for a bit........

 

How much would having a female with a butt like that do for me...

WORLDS my friend- especially if she doesn't have any compunctions about fooling around with the ranks.

[EmeraldEdge]

Especially since she wasn't initially a member of Starfleet, correct?  That means that she's totally up for grabs!   She just shouldn't have been allowed on the bridge.  How useful was she really?   Enemy fires full spread of weapons and all she can come up with is "Captain, I'm sensing hostility".   Really?  Wow, thanks counselor. heh.

[Chris SI]

She was always a member of Starfleet, but Picard allowed her to dress differently.

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

But wasn't it Gene himself who granted the mantle to Berman?  Why would he do that to someone he didn't like?

The latrest thinking is that Genes health had declined after the first few seasons of TNG and the first Star Trek movie was not a complte financial success.  However Berman has been blamed for "pushing him out" by a few of the former production people associatyed with TNG.

Who knows...

[EmeraldEdge]

She was always a member of Starfleet, but Picard allowed her to dress differently.

You sure about that?  I could have sworn there was something about Betazeds not being allowed in Starfleet because of their Psychic abilities or something, but that changed later.  Now I'm going to have to go look it up I suppose.

[Chris Johnson]

Here's a pic I Googled.  Notice the uniform?  Notice the three little pips?  That alone means she had been in Starfleet for years, especially if you notice the pips indicating her rank is Lieutenuant-Commander.  Also, as a counselor, she is a profession of keeping everyone's mental health stable.  Wouldn't it be a profession of medicine, in a way?  Realistically she could try to help me, but then it's like trying to help Barclay, I'd probably wouldn't be getting much help;  I'd be probably hiding in the holodeck.  But that's me.
I could care less for lust, Carney.  Love?  Probably.  Not lust, if anything it'd add more problems to my mental health while being away in space from what I care about the most, whatever it would be then hypothetically.

Reviewing the whole subject, we've gone through three subjects already: What Gene and Berman thought of each other, "Children on the Enterprise?"/"I'm not a family man, Riker..." -- Quoting Picard twice on two different episodes, summarizing families on starships, and the latest debate about Counseling on a Starship.  Sometimes I love how the topic changes in a thread.

[EmeraldEdge]

Yeah, I guess you are right.   I looked it up on Star Trek.com and came up with:

During her original Enterprise posting she had preferred wearing non-regulation clothing as a calming influence on those about her, but following temporary commander Jellico's order to don a uniform in 2369, she began to make it habit...

I wonder what show I was thinking of then.  Oh, well. (or maybe they changed it on me, yeah that's got to be it )

[Chris Johnson]

Perhaps you were thinking of Seven of Nine in Voyager and (BIG *Gasp* since I'm no fan of the show) T'pol of Akiraprise?

[Magnum357]

Actually, he might be right.  I thought i vaguelly recall an episode (in season one perhaps?) where it was stated that Troi was just a civilian.  But who knows, its clearly obvious later that she is indeed a Starfleet Officer.  hell, by the end of TNG, she is a full Commander!  In my opinion, I would have to imagine her as a Starfleet Officer becasue she technically has Medical skills much like the Cheif Medical officer.  I find it highly doubtful Starfleet would not want even its councelers to be Starfleet personel.  In an emergency, Troi might know basic medical skills in her Academy (or whatever Starfleet Training) she may have gotten.  And this brings up another point, do all Starfleet personel HAVE to go through academy training?  We see in many episodes (even Cheif O'brein) that you don't need to go to Starfleet Academy to get into Starfleet.  Perhaps Troi went though an "ROCT" school or something like that that was in conjuction to her schooling in Medicine/Psycology.  She might not be the best trained officer in Starfleet, but enough to be considered certified.  Heck, right now I'm working on a Federation Police Cutter Model (from SFB) where the design is based off of a concept I have always thought the Federation would have.  Why not a type of "Guard" branch that works similar to the Coast Gaurd we have today?  If you had a branch like this, you might need a lot more personel to fill in roles of the Federation that Academies couldn't provide (ie. Enlisted men, Non-commisioned officers, "ROTC" type of Starfleet Officers, possible Civilian experts, etc.).

man, I'm getting off subject here.  As for Troi's use on the Enterprise, during peace time, I could easily see her role as being useful, but during times of War, probably not, unless she has enough other skills to be useful in a war effort.

[Rolling]

If you remember, Troi took the "captain's test", after Crusher was given control of the bridge, to be better prepared in the event of an emergency.

Also, she could successfully take the helm and fly the Enterprise into another ship at Picard's request. 

She was useful during "war times" when there was verbal contact; giving Picard insight into the emotional state of his adversary.

But she sure did look like a galactic cheerleader the first year!!!!  I'm so glad they changed her appearance.

[EmeraldEdge]

Perhaps you were thinking of Seven of Nine in Voyager and (BIG *Gasp* since I'm no fan of the show) T'pol of Akiraprise?

Heh, nope.  It was definitely something from that era of TV SciFi (there was a lot of one season/half season crap that came out around then so it could have been anything I guess).

Something in my mind still thinks it was Troi though, and I guess Magnum sorta recalls a reference to it as well.  I wish I could remember it better.

[Rolling]

You are probably correct.

In Star Trek, there were a lot of contradictions and backpeddling to correct, or change, events to meet their current goals.

They used time travel, space/time continuum shifts, mirror universes, time bubbles, etc. to make adjustments in scripts that they otherwise could not change.

Sometimes, like the Klingons, they just made the change and did not worry about explaining it.

So, I do not doubt that you had read that Troi was originally suppose to be a civilian to begin with.

[Chris SI]

She was always Star fleet, but her rank was NOT in the chain of command, much like a Doctor (McCoy was a Lt Cmd, yet not in the command chain) so Picard allowewd her to dress as she liked.

Dr Crusher took and passed the command test, allowing her to be part of the command chain, Troy did this later, only passing when she realized that sometimes you have to order people to die to save others (in her case, Geordi in a simulation).

It was indeed Captain Jellicoe that made Deanna wear a service uniform, as he preferred 'a certain decorum on the bridge.'

[Magnum357]

This actually does make a LOT of sense now.  Technically, Troi has the authority to relieve command of even the Captain of the Enterprise yet during the first few seasons she had no command control of personel.  This makes sense because if your in a Military structure, its not good to give someone a higher authority over the Captain (which is suppose to be the "Law of the sea" in Navies) without some sort of check and balance.  Think about it!  Troi has the technical power to releive the entire command staff if she wanted to (she only has to prove it later to Starfleet) that the entire command staff is unfit for duty and releive them.  That is why she is not in the command structure per-say, but in a way she is sort of needed because who is going to police the other command officers if the counseler suspects a mutiniy or something like that by the first officer or someone else.  It also puts a check to the captain aswell as no one else is going to question the authority of the Captain. 

So in a way, in this whole discussion, she may be a Civilian by practice AND a Command officer by technicallity.  I guess we may be all right.   

[Magnum357]

Or maybe we should look at it this way.  Maybe ships councelers are the Federations versions of "Political Officers" to keep their captains from getting out of hand.  LOL   

Ok, I was joking on that one.

[Captain Pierce]

Even before Troi took the command test that Rolling mentioned, and became fully certified as a command officer, she was still somewhere in the chain of command, becuase in the episode where the Enterprise was disabled by the superstring fragment, O'Brien deferred to her as the ranking officer--and that was when O'Brien was still a Lieutenant.   

[J. Carney]

Even before Troi took the command test that Rolling mentioned, and became fully certified as a command officer, she was still somewhere in the chain of command, becuase in the episode where the Enterprise was disabled by the superstring fragment, O'Brien deferred to her as the ranking officer--and that was when O'Brien was still a Lieutenant.   

O'Brian was an officer?

WHere did 'Cheif' come from?

[Chris Johnson]

Chief is a rank, Chief Petty Officer to be exact.

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/DS9/character/1112439.html

O'brien is a "non-commissioned officer."

[Magnum357]

Correct.  O'brein was never an Officer, that is why Bashire in DS9 had rank over him (technically) even though it never showed much in DS9 since they practically were freinds.  This is what I was referring to above, we see enlisted men in Star Trek from time to time (O'brein as a Cheif and other crewmen), their must be some sort of enlistment program in Starfleet if you don't want to go through the academy system.

[Dash Jones]

I think O'Brien still went to the Academy for around two years or such...can't recall where I heard that though.

[Chris SI]

Miles wore an Ensign's rank on TNG and in the early episodes of DS 9, he was called chief because he was the Enterprise's transporter cheif. and DS 9's cheif engineer.
Somewhere in the DS 9 run, they decided he was a non-com (something new in Star Trek, previously there was only officers and crewmen) and changed his color insignia to a naval chief's.

Miles as an 'Ensign' from STTNG


Miles with his now familiar 'chief' insignia.

[J. Carney]

Chief is a rank, Chief Petty Officer to be exact.

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/DS9/character/1112439.html

O'brien is a "non-commissioned officer."

Right- O'Brian was the COB (Chief of the Boat, most senior Chief Petty Officer) for the Enterprise... or at least that was his original job. I was just wondering if he had gotten promoted somewhere along the line.

[Captain Pierce]

"Chief" O'Brien, as Chris SI said, originally came from him being the Transporter Chief, not any sort of rank.  I remember him, through most of TNG, wearing Lieutenant's pips, not Ensign as that picture shows, though.  (Aside from his first couple of appearances, most notably in "Encounter at Farpoint," where he was wearing Ensign pips and command red.  )  At any rate, the sense I got from TNG was definitely that he was an officer--he was tactical officer, remember, on the Rutledge.  (Although of course we can argue the semantics of that one all day...  )  It was when they moved him to DS9 that they decided to make "Chief" a rank, although it's unclear what exactly the full rank was--"Senior Chief Specialist" was used in dialogue once, but then the producers decided they didn't like it after all.

That said, I do kind of like the concept of Starfleet having enlisted personnel as well--if there's as many starships and starbases as DS9 and TNG respectively seemed to imply, there's no way they're going to be able to process every person on every one of them through four years at one facility on Earth... 

[J. Carney]

There are most definately enlisted ranks in Star Trek.

In St:TMP, when Lt. Ilea got snatched, Decker called for a 'Chief DeFalco' who bore no officer's rank on her uniform to man the helm.

In ST6:TUK, when they are searching for the crewman who's mag-boots were used in the assination of Gorkon, they go to a locker room full of enlisted men and address one (the guy with the screwy lookin feet) directly as "Crewman." Actually, both pairs of boots were stolen form ratings.

Those are just 2 instances off the top of my head where EM's are mentioned. I think that the guys in coveralls in TOS were also supposed to be enlisted men.

I think that O'Brian was supposed to be the COB for Enterprise, but they didn't make any special rank pins for him till DS9.

[Chris SI]

The enlisted rank was definately an add-on in the TNG series of shows, DS 9 created it.

"Cheif" ranks are mentioned in TOS, as Yeoman IS an elisted rank, and we all know that Rand was there (how could you miss her?)

I believe enlisted ranks were over-looked in TNG, so it was added to DS 9, as it makes perfect sense.

[J. Carney]

How did she slip my mind?

"Cheif" ranks are mentioned in TOS, as Yeoman IS an elisted rank, and we all know that Rand was there (how could you miss her?)

Well, there are people in this word who are blind and some (for some ungodly reason) don't like girls.

As for everbody else... no possible way, not with those gams.

[Magnum357]

Ya, I remember a few times during early TNG that O'brien did have officer insignia, but I have to imagine that this was an oversite in TNG.  Like what was said above, I find it hard to beleive that you could not operate as many vessels without Enlisted men. 

[Hyperion]

The enlisted rank was definately an add-on in the TNG series of shows, DS 9 created it.

"Cheif" ranks are mentioned in TOS, as Yeoman IS an elisted rank, and we all know that Rand was there (how could you miss her?)

I believe enlisted ranks were over-looked in TNG, so it was added to DS 9, as it makes perfect sense.

But didnt she wear the pips of a Lt. commander in ST3: TSFS?...i mean im all for promotion but even if you take the supposed 10-20 year gap from the end of TOS to ST3 jumping from "yeoman" to a full Lt. commander is one hell of a career. It takes as long just to make Lt. Cmmder if youre an officer much less an NCO. And she was wearing "command" white in that piece of the moview too

Makes you think

[Captain Pierce]

My knowledge of naval terminology is a bit limited, but I was always under the impression that "Yeoman" wasn't a rank per se, but a positition--the Captain's "secretary," for lack of a better term.

[Alidar Jarok]

Check out this site

The Cage and WNMHGB

I'd link the TOS stuff, but they don't show anything for Enlisted Personel, not that they had anything (Ensign didn't have anything either).

TMP

TWOK
Janice Rand is listed as Chief Petty Officer

Early TNG

Later TNG

DS9

And, just for the hell of it:

Enterprise

[Dash Jones]

Check out this site

The Cage and WNMHGB

I'd link the TOS stuff, but they don't show anything for Enlisted Personel, not that they had anything (Ensign didn't have anything either).

TMP

TWOK
Janice Rand is listed as Chief Petty Officer

Early TNG

Later TNG

DS9

And, just for the hell of it:

Enterprise

Good post!

[J. Carney]

From the TMP credist:

Marcy Lafferty    ....    Chief DiFalco

So we have a warrent officer here as well (since Rand is listed as a CPO, if DiFalco was a chief petty officer and not a 'Chief' (warrent officer) she would have been listed as such.

And from STVI

Michael Snyder    ....    Crewman Dax

Now, we have enlisted men AND warrent officers in TOS/TMP.

I doubt that Starfleet did away with the enlisted ranks totally in 80 years and then brought them back again in the 10 that it took O'Brian to get to DS9. So I say he was a CPO and they were just too lazy to make up a new rank pin.

[Chris SI]

I think that it was just an oversite, and sometime during DS 9, somebody figured it would be cool if miles was a petty officer, instead of a commishioned ifficer.

[Chris Johnson]

Ever notice the little gold pip that is more like a golden ring with a black center?  That rank pip alone is (Senior/Master) Chief Petty Officer, as of the entire TNG series, if you exclude the movies and spinoffs of the TNG series.  I guess in real life, some people thought it would be nice to look into the enlisted men and warrant officers more... For the ST universe... In TNG, that rank pip alone was enough for a rank of (Senior/Master) CPO, but how could you tell the difference?  I guess it took Starfleet twenty years to find a talor that makes ranks a little easier to tell apart for the newbies to rank.

Please note that I am no expert in ranks, and have no idea what people in TNG and DS9 planned out in ranks...

Where did those new rank pins come from in Voyager?  I know Spike's site explains it in a canonical way... It's to tell the difference between Maquis and normal Starfleet personell, right?

[Chris SI]

I'm not saying the rank was new, I'm saying they thought it would be nice if MILES was a pettyofficer.

As quite a few folks mentioned, crewmen in Trek is as old as the first pilot.

[Domjot]

I wonder what show I was thinking of then.

Either DS9 where genetically enhanced humans were not allowed to join Starfleet or Babylon 5 where teleptaths were not allowed to join Earth Force.

I thought i vaguelly recall an episode (in season one perhaps?) where it was stated that Troi was just a civilian.

She's been an officer right from the start. In "Encounter at Farpoint" for example she wore a uniform and LtCmdr-pips.

My knowledge of naval terminology is a bit limited, but I was always under the impression that "Yeoman" wasn't a rank per se, but a positition

Actually, it's both, although it's not called rank but rate (rank is used for commissioned officers, rate for enlisted personnel). A Yeoman 1st class for example is a Petty Officer 1st class who works as Yeoman. A Senior Chief Yeoman is a Senior Chief Petty Officer who works as Yeoman, etc.

About Rand: She was a yeoman in TOS, a CPO in TMP, then we saw her as full Commander in TSFS but she was only credited as "woman in cafeteria", in TVH she appeared in an enlisted uniform and according to the script she was a Master Chief Petty Officer, next time we saw her (TUC) she was a Lt. JG, and then Voyager f*cked it up royally and showed her as Lt. Cmdr. Solution for that mess: Ignore TSFS and "Flashback".

O'Brien's even more messed up. We first saw him in "Encounter at Farpoint" with an Ensign pip, then in season 2 with full Lt. pips (he even got referred to as Lt. once by Riker). In "Family" he was referred to as "Chief Petty Officer" by Worf's father while still wearing full Lt. pips. His insignia was finally corrected in TNG's season six where he got one black pip. Then in one DS9 episode (I think it was "Past Prologue") Keiko mentions that he was promoted, but he was still wearing one black pip. In "Shadowplay" he referred to himself as "Senior Chief Specialist". Therefore I think that O'Brien was promoted from CPO to SCPO after his transfer from the E-D to DS9 and that the black pip is a generic insignia for CPOs, Senior Chiefs, and Master Chiefs.

There've been enlisted men in all shows and movies, just the complexity of their rate insignia varied from uniform to uniform. Best portrayal of enlisted men was beyound doubt in the TOS movies. Insignia were designed for every rate, they even wore different uniforms than commissioned officers and also the ratio between commissioned officers and enlisted personnel was much much better than in the shows. In TNG for example tons of officers were shown but only a handfull of enlisted men, but in TUC I counted approximately 10 officers aboard the Enterprise-A and all the other extras were enlisted.

[Julin Eurthyr]

Where did those new rank pins come from in Voyager?  I know Spike's site explains it in a canonical way... It's to tell the difference between Maquis and normal Starfleet personell, right?

Yep.

I did watch some of the early Voyagers, and after the initial episode, when the 2 crews were integrated, Janeway made them all wear Starfleet Uniforms, but couldn't pin on them official Starfleet ranks (even if they had one before they joined the Maquis), so the black "solid" pins were quickly designed for them...

Notice the "Standard" Voyager crew (Janeway, Kim, Tuvok, Paris) get standard circular pips, while the Maquis (Chakotay & Torres) get the black bars...

[USS Mariner]

Where did those new rank pins come from in Voyager?  I know Spike's site explains it in a canonical way... It's to tell the difference between Maquis and normal Starfleet personell, right?

Yep.

I did watch some of the early Voyagers, and after the initial episode, when the 2 crews were integrated, Janeway made them all wear Starfleet Uniforms, but couldn't pin on them official Starfleet ranks (even if they had one before they joined the Maquis), so the black "solid" pins were quickly designed for them...

Notice the "Standard" Voyager crew (Janeway, Kim, Tuvok, Paris) get standard circular pips, while the Maquis (Chakotay & Torres) get the black bars...

I would guess that the "bars" for the Maquis crewmembers are actually "appointed" ranks, that is, a rank that is given to a paticular non-Starfleet (or former Starfleet) person by the Captian in order to serve as an officer or crewman in emergency situations. Once the crisis is over (whether in 7 days or in 7 years,) these Appointed crewmembers would be able to either discard these ranks or be elligible to enter Starfleet Academy with provisional credits already given to them because of their field experience. This would allow them to effectivley skip the latter half of their Seinor year at the Academy (which is mostly field training IIRC) and become real officers.

Not necessarily canon but that's how I figure it.

[Julin Eurthyr]

Funny thing is I recall at least 1 "Maquis" officer, Chakotay, was a prior-service Starfleet Officer who resigned his commission and joined the Maquis...

[Blyre]

Probaly William Shatner, Gene and him didn't get along at all.

The person I'm talking about definately wasn't William Shatner.  He had a closer role to Desilu appointed supervisor than actor.

Gene Coon?
Died in '73 from lung cancer. Trek-writer-producer, acted as "studio adult supervision" according to Gerrold.
In other words: Coon was to TOS as Berman was to TNG

Not to say Gerrold is wrong about Berman, but he is hawking a book series. Remember, in Hollywood: controversy = free publicity
If you go to Gerrold's website and download the free copy of "The Trouble With Tribbles", you'll find the first 6 or so pages are a teaser for his new book.

I believe that Gene liked Gene Coon. However, Producer or Director Fred Freiberger (sp?) is generally blamed for the low quality that existed in TOS's last scene is considered the most hated person among TOS fans.

Wallace