Topic: Edit: Please note I hate you all -Nothin to do with flipping amything..

[Hexx]

I'm not sure if this is even sort of on topic with Gooks work(my eyes kinda glazed over about 5 or 6.. I think it's good what you're doing Gook, just all the long winded replies  take a bit to read))
but what about trying the following for a soultion to "hex flipping" (and why do most people spell that with a capital "H"? Is this a shot at me ? You bastards...)

Anyway hex rules
(not "Hexx rules" which he does-but I'll let someone else sing my praises later)

1) A hex that has nothing in it (no bases, no rocks no planets) is just that. A hex with nothing in it.
Given that warps speeds are presumably kinda fast, and that space is (in theory) kinda big it would seem that it shouldn't be all that difficult to avoid fighting someone you don't want to.

-Therefore hexes with nothing in them count for nothing, no need for line of supply, no need to fight over one, no need for it to even be controlled by an empire- nothing really to base that control on.

2)A hex that contains a planet/base/rocks etc. is a different story. These would be supply points /bases/ resources to be controlled. These would have to be fought over.

Maps would have to change to have (alot) more bases and/or planets.Not every hex would have to have one, but maybe every 6th or 7th hex (maybe even every 10th?)

There would be no "los" as we do it today. rather you would have to hold the plent hexes, base hexes and rock hexes scattered around the maps.
-I know that droners will still fly these missions faster , but I think that the time difference between a droneboat attacking a planet and a plasma pos attacking a planet would be closer than against AI.

I'm kinda out of it, so not really sure that all made sense. But trust me-it's a great idea..

[SkyFlyer]

I think the DV in these hexs should be really low... but you need a LOS through them... like maybe a max DV of 5... but LOS counts as long as the hex is yours or neutral... you get what I', saying?

[Vaul]

It's worth noting that empty space tends not to be that empty - particularly in the UFP, with a relatively high proportion of civilian commercial traffic (trade routes, etc). So you'll get convoys running through those empty hexes, which means escorts and standing patrols to keep the wolf packs at bay...

...so empty hexes ARE worth something

[Hexx]

Not really
the convoys have to start and finish somewhere- these are the important points.
SFB was based on a 2 dimensional map, while I admit that until my skills as a programmer become a bit more advanced we will continue to use a 2d map, the reality is that space is 3d . (Or so the movies would have me believe -I've been fooled by them before)

While it's a nice theory that everything should fit nicely around a 2d map, with readily defined borders and such, I really don't think it would work this way. It's nice to assume that you could monitor and patrol every part of the "border", but think about it- wouldn't this actaully take thousands if not millions of ships?
I'm not saying that the "empty hexes" don't have things in them, of course they will. But the important parts of space will be those areas that have something physical to control, be it a base, a planet or a bunch of asteroids.

[FPF-AJTK]

Vaul is right, take WW2 for example. The speed and size of a WW2 DD coupled with its limited radar/sonar range makes a quasi-decent comparison to a Starship in a hEXX (little hexx, isnt that right?) Anyways, if a given hex belongs to an empire, there are going to be patrols of some sort, even if not actual Naval warships, perhaps police ships, long-range fighters, etc.

Convoys will have escorts and Q-ships, etc. Not to mention listening posts, asteroid bases, etc.

While Im sure there are vast reaches of space with absolutely NOTHING in them just as Hexx (big hexx?) postulates, it would be easy to tow a decent sized asteroid into a hex, or drop a mobile base, listening post, whatever.

He is right however, Id make hexxes with "nothing in them" no higher a DV than 5? Unless its an "empty" hexx within the core of an empire, where there is going to be far more Military and police traffic on a constant basis.

Line of supply is just an indicator that Starships and transports can expect to freely (within reason) travel thru these hexes without being subjected to enemy attack. The odd pirate not withstanding, your not going to expect to find a C7 3 hexes from Earth unless things have REALLY, REALLY gone bad. (Or Fluf made the map)

If its a neutral hexx, er, hex, that simply means it is not patroled and therefore it is not safe to send merchant traffic thru, and Starships have to be ready for combat at any time while traveling thru these hexes.

Sorry Supreme Imperial Dicktater Hexxipoo, your not going to get LoS knocked out that easily. We KNOW youd feel more comfortable deepstriking in the Federation rear where there wont be anyone looking for you, but thats not gonna happen.

[Vaul]

Hexx, from the point of view of a commerce raider, the beginning and end points of a convoy route are only important in the sense of "look, but don't touch". It's easier - and just as productive - to stalk the convoy for a bit and then whack it in a relatively deserted area of space.

From the point of view of the defender, the response to this is twofold. First is to run a convoy system with escorts, Q-ships, etc. Second is to maintain standing patrols along shipping routes, in an effort to catch the raiders before they can strike. IMO, the defence value of a hex represents those standing patrols - particularly their frequency.

Yes, we're representing 3D space on a 2D map, but that's a convention to save our processors melting and our brains from dribbling out of our ears.

[Hexx]

Vaul is right, take WW2 for example. The speed and size of a WW2 DD coupled with its limited radar/sonar range makes a quasi-decent comparison to a Starship in a hEXX (little hexx, isnt that right?) Anyways, if a given hex belongs to an empire, there are going to be patrols of some sort, even if not actual Naval warships, perhaps police ships, long-range fighters, etc.

Convoys will have escorts and Q-ships, etc. Not to mention listening posts, asteroid bases, etc.

While Im sure there are vast reaches of space with absolutely NOTHING in them just as Hexx (big hexx?) postulates, it would be easy to tow a decent sized asteroid into a hex, or drop a mobile base, listening post, whatever.

He is right however, Id make hexxes with "nothing in them" no higher a DV than 5? Unless its an "empty" hexx within the core of an empire, where there is going to be far more Military and police traffic on a constant basis.

Line of supply is just an indicator that Starships and transports can expect to freely (within reason) travel thru these hexes without being subjected to enemy attack. The odd pirate not withstanding, your not going to expect to find a C7 3 hexes from Earth unless things have REALLY, REALLY gone bad. (Or Fluf made the map)

If its a neutral hexx, er, hex, that simply means it is not patroled and therefore it is not safe to send merchant traffic thru, and Starships have to be ready for combat at any time while traveling thru these hexes.

Sorry Supreme Imperial Dicktater Hexxipoo, your not going to get LoS knocked out that easily. We KNOW youd feel more comfortable deepstriking in the Federation rear where there wont be anyone looking for you, but thats not gonna happen.

Again I think I'm not making myself clear.

-If you think of how fast (at Warp Speed whatever) a ship is moving, there is no real way you're going to be able to intercept one unless you have ships at a planet/base or somewhere wher the ship has to fight.
- There are not going to be any real "set" convoy routes, or trade routes . Convoys will move from system x to system y, but unless I'm completely off about the 3d effects of space there are a few different ways they can get there. The only absolutely sure place you can get the to fight is at one of the planets/ bases/ etc.
Think about it -"control" of "nothing" space means ... nothing. If you have one side attacking and seizing planets, using it's own defensive force to patrol the space around their own planets and installations. And the other side sending it's ships out to the space in between worlds, the guys going after planets are going to run rings around the guys flying around in space.

[Cleaven]

A far better idea is to use the sector Dynaverse map seen in SFC1. Everybody in the sector gets missions and after enough missions have been run, indicating a superior military presence, the whole sector control swings over.

[FPF-Jem]

Hmmm, I kind of like Hexx's idea, what if you made a really big map, and then have several hexs represent a star system. You could have a Planet in the middle, then a ring of rocks, and then maybe one more ring of empty hexs to represent the very outer reaches of the star system. I think you would also have to up the move speed though on a large map like that, otherwise it would take too long.

It'd be a bit different at any rate.

[Julin Eurthyr]

Again I think I'm not making myself clear.

-If you think of how fast (at Warp Speed whatever) a ship is moving, there is no real way you're going to be able to intercept one unless you have ships at a planet/base or somewhere wher the ship has to fight.
- There are not going to be any real "set" convoy routes, or trade routes . Convoys will move from system x to system y, but unless I'm completely off about the 3d effects of space there are a few different ways they can get there. The only absolutely sure place you can get the to fight is at one of the planets/ bases/ etc.
Think about it -"control" of "nothing" space means ... nothing. If you have one side attacking and seizing planets, using it's own defensive force to patrol the space around their own planets and installations. And the other side sending it's ships out to the space in between worlds, the guys going after planets are going to run rings around the guys flying around in space.

Okay.
1.  3D space, 3D scan cones.  Abstracted down to 2D for our pathetic 2D-monitor screens...
2.  Intercepting a warp-freighter with a warp-starship is just as easy as intercepting a cargo plane with a F-15 / F-16...
3.  Convoy routes are set, they're always the shortest path between 2 points avoiding all the big rocky and glowy thingies in the way.  Why waste gas turning all-over creation taking the interstellar equivalent of the "back roads"...

And on your final point:

Control of "nothing" air by the USAF has netted the US Army quite a few easy fights, hasn't it...

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Hexx flipping, man I was expecting a midget tossing contest with photos......

Chuut-- the disappointed.

[Cleaven]

Perhaps you should imagine a long plank, balancing upon a fuel drum with a hex upon one end, and a large weight about to be dropped upon the other.

[FVA_C_ Blade_ XC]

Hexx flipping, man I was expecting a midget tossing contest with photos......

Chuut-- the disappointed.

OMG!


Chuut  

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Perhaps you should imagine a long plank, balancing upon a fuel drum with a hex upon one end, and a large weight about to be dropped upon the other.

Umm is Hexx in the fuel drum?

might work..... visualizes throwing a match in the drum before lift off.....pretty fireworks.....

[Cleaven]

Sort of a scorched hex strategy?

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Exactly,

the old tactics were amusing:

http://www.d0ggystyle.com/movies/GetTogether/Hello%20Kitty!.mpg

http://www.d0ggystyle.com/movies/GetTogether/Bye%20Kitty!.mpg

but lacked an actual fipping feature,  with the ideas you have inspired Cleaven, killing Hexx will finally seem like a new experience again instead of the same old tired exercise.......

[FPF-AJTK]

Hexx, er hex flipping will NEVER hold the same meaning for me CR.

[NuclearWessels]

OK guys, here's the game!

http://www.fetchfido.co.uk/games/midget_tossing/midget_tossing.htm
(gotta love the music)

Sorry Hexx

dave

[FPF-DieHard]

Does anyone now anywhere in the Northeast that actually has Drawf Tossing?  I see a road trip in my future . . .

[FPF-AJTK]

Dwarf tossing, or midget tossing? BIG difference, as Durin is going to be upset on one hand, or Hexx on the other.

[Hexx]

Please

As I've explained to you feebs time and time again I tower a mighty 5'8" (or maybe 5'7" and 3/4)
No where near midget height.

I demand apologies and respect from everyone who is,has. or will make cracks about my height .

[FPF-AJTK]

ROFL! Damn, I gotta take back all the short jokes, Hexx is taller than ME! OH, did I say that out loud?

Im 5'6'/5'7" depending on what time of the month it is and how much water Im retaining in my feet.

Guess Hexx and I can both make extra $ at the midget tossing events.

Sorry Hexx, I FEEL YOUR PAIN!

Ill try to cut the short jokes down to the SHORT list...

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Please

As I've explained to you feebs time and time again I tower a mighty 5'8" (or maybe 5'7" and 3/4)
No where near midget height.

I demand apologies and respect from everyone who is,has. or will make cracks about my height .

Sorry Hexx, but you have to realize that from a Kzin perspective a 5'8" felinoid is a midget.

If you want respect the Star's End Bar 1-900 number hotlines are available for $3.99 per minute......

[FPF-AJTK]

Oh, is this for "RP" height requirements? DAMN, I was a freaking gecko amongst Carnosaurs while playin Gr0n on LB5.

For Fred, im Average, sweet.

[SkyFlyer]

heh   i'm 6'5!

[FPF-AJTK]

6'5", at 15? DAMN BOY! WTF you been eatin? Wait, you live in Cherynobyl, right? Thats it.

So, the standard question, do you play basket ball? If so, the University of Florida WANTS YOU!

Email Billy Donovan, he will hook ya up!

[Holocat]

Hexx, from the point of view of a commerce raider, the beginning and end points of a convoy route are only important in the sense of "look, but don't touch". It's easier - and just as productive - to stalk the convoy for a bit and then whack it in a relatively deserted area of space.

From the point of view of the defender, the response to this is twofold. First is to run a convoy system with escorts, Q-ships, etc. Second is to maintain standing patrols along shipping routes, in an effort to catch the raiders before they can strike. IMO, the defence value of a hex represents those standing patrols - particularly their frequency.

Yes, we're representing 3D space on a 2D map, but that's a convention to save our processors melting and our brains from dribbling out of our ears.

Star control maps did this relatively well.  They were sometimes a headache to figure out, but the processor was hardly melting.  Hell, this was 286 technology.

Edit:  Oh, just in case i'm not understood, I mean that Star Control maps (1 and 3, not 2) were 3 dimentional maps represented in 3 dimentions.  And it worked.  On a 286.