Topic: #9

[Gook]

9. Rather than make droner missions harder, drop BPVs (which only affect AI battles) for Plasma races by 10% to help their mission times as there is a perception if not a reality they are slower. This would encourage more people to play the under played races and speed up the game as all players would be able to approach droner flip times. This would obviously have to be put into OP+ list to be downloaded. I am suggesting it as there have been many attempts to slow down the droners, but none have worked, and frankly I for one am tired of being experimented on. Lets make eveybody flip equally fast and speed the game process up as whole.

OK here I declare a biased interest.

As I said in the quote I am tired of being experimented on. The problem for those with little or selective memories is droner flip speed compared to say Plasma races. The usual technique to "slow down" the droner is to make them pay more for the drones and/or increase their BPVs relative to the AI they face. This has happened on every server I have played on since CW3. It impacts on the Kzin more than other races as their primary weapon is supposed to be the drone. It is the job of every Kzin captain to get as many drones into the air and keep that number in the air, for as long as possible, it is what they do, it is in the job description. Now bearing in mind this game is NOT SFB, nor will it ever become SFB, there is a perceived imbalance for the plasma races especially when it comes to hex flipping speed.

We cannot help the Plasma boys by bringing in WSIII (so I am informed). I do not think that anybody here thinks the AI is challenging, and actually adding more AI can exascerbate the plasma boy situation as it takes them even longer to finish missions, while only slowing down the droners marginally, and hacking them off at the same time.

The proposal is rather than try and slow the droners up, which has failed dismally to date in about every configuration tried (if it had worked there would not still be moans about drones etc); lets try and speed up the plasma boats. Now there has been some discussion elsewhere about this, but I do feel strongly thet we should try this out.

The plasma boats receive a 10% reduction in BPV and the difficulty rating is dropped to Commodore from Admiral (which only really affects BPV in any event). The droner mission time will remain the same, the Hydran and Lyran times will remain the same, but the Plasma boys will be able to compete (possibly) on hex flipping speeds. If everyone is flippig at the same rate or faster this can only be good for the pace of the game. The drawback for the none plasma boys is that they will be facing slightly harder plasma boats, but as plasma boats in the hands of the AI are probably the easiest to kill , I don't think they (none plasma boats) will be affected overly.

For the sake of clarity BPV ONLY affects AI games not PvP which depend entirely on what ship you bought with your PP and what the other fellow(s) bought with theirs.

This is a thread about a different concept for AI games, not one on drone prices, or a specific ship list. It can be applied to whatever ship list is chosen to be used.

Now I don't actually see any downside, other than the chest thumpers with overdoses of testosterone, saying they don't want things made easier in any way. The reality is the AI is not challenging, no one loses to AI unless there is a huge imbalance or you are badly damaged, making the AI as easy/quick for all as it is for drone boats just means the game moves on faster, it does not emasculate the inner "warrior" in you as there is no challenge there, and will probbaly lead to quicker PvP as more hexes will be flipped in a given unit of time. It also does not continually nerf one race all the time, who when all is said and done are supposed to use drones.

So post away with perceived problems.

I also repeat as a some may have forgotten the opening disclaimer, I am declaring an interest and bias in this thread.

[Julin Eurthyr]

Here's where I intend to have some fun...

 

BPV affects more than just the AI draw.  It also influences the price someone has to pay in the shipyard.  That has to be kept in mind when you're talking BPV.

Also, there's "racial flavor" to keep in mind.  Mirak effectively "suck" in PvP.  They always have, and short of making them Klingons, they always will.  Plasma boats, especially PPD-using ISC or properly-handled Romulans, are some of the toughest PvP customers on the map.  Without major shiplist reconstruction, the PvP imbalance will always remain.

So, let's look past pure-hex flipping speed, and look at the whole picture.  Your BPV proposal will make for slightly cheaper Plasma ships, tougher anti-plasma AI draws (possibly facing CLs or CAs in your drone boats, slowing you down somewhat), equalize hex flipping speed across the board, but leave the Mirak / droner on the short end of the PvP stick.

That is unbalancing.  Who would want a pure drone boat when they can flip at rapid speeds while enjoying PvP benefits with Plasma?

In my personal quest for "balance" of some sort, I don't like that.  If I, representing Plasma, get a benefit, you, representing Mirak / droner, need one too.  And not just a return to the "status quo" of fastest hex flipper when Plasma ships start tying you in flipping speed...

So, I recommend this:

Go with a DIP-like system.  Per SFB, the source of this game, ships should have their master BPV increased for things like drone loadout.  For the entire existance of SFC, that has never happened.  DIP has implemented this never-represented surcharge, but in a more SFC-friendly manner.  Also, DIP has reclassed ship prices so that whether Plasma or Drones, people need to pay the same PP to get the same strength.

Steps in the right direction.

There was one thing missing from this maneuver.  Now that droners need to pay Plasma-esque prices for their ships, they should be given Plasma-esque like operating characteristics.

Specifically, more free reloads and cheaper drone speed upgrades.  The free reloads, on some kind of system to represent the SFB-source while accounting for doubled internals, will help droners stay in the field longer without mandatory resupply.  The cheaper speed upgrades will minimize the PP hit when faster drones are aquired.

I've always liked the following SFB to SFC reload rate:

1 SFB reload (most non-bombardment ships prior to 2275) = 3 SFC reloads
2 SFB reload (bombardment and everyone post-2275) = 5 SFC reloads

In a typical 2xB 2xC rack Mirak ship, this will equal 60-100 drones per mission.  In a 6xB bombardment ship, this could be 108-180 free drones, at the last speed chosen, for free, each mission.

Plasma-esque prices, Plasma-esque operating characteristics.  If you don't blow your shuttles / marines, you can stay out in the field for extended periods, with numerous (60-180) shots of your primary weapons.  Also, since you get lots of free drones each mission, you're not paying for your ammo anymore, like plasma doesn't pay for their torpedoes...

And the kicker is, instead of affecting, at a minimum, 3 whole races (as a reduction in Plasma would require), the increase method only affects ships that use the weapon-in-issue, allows the keeping of "racial flavor", as Mirak will still hex-flip faster than plasma while Plasma still beats people in PvP, people pay nearly the same for the same combat ability and operating characteristics, and remains true to the spirit of the source.

[Gook]

Sorry Julin I don't follow your logic.

On the one hand you want to up the BPV of drone ships so they face harder AI and give them more reloads, I don't see how that affects the flip rate for plasma boys.

I'd rather the plasma boys flipped faster and thus become more effective in the bulk of the game (flipping). Than giving me more free drones but upping the AI and slowing down the game as whole.

If a standard plasma mission were say 6 minutes (arbitrary number) and the reduction in BPV allowed the same pilot to do the missions in 4 minutes he would be 50% more effective in the bulk of the game. The Drone boat still flips as fast as ever, but the differential has narrowed. I believe making the fewer pilots we have more effective for the time they are in game is a better solution than trying to render another block of pilots less effective.

So far as PvP is concerned, most ships used have arbitrary costs in terms of PP anyhow, and ship loss doesn't happen that often, so the slightly cheaper plasma boats PP wise is a red herring. BPV has no effect on PvP only AI.

So far as fighting AI are concerned facing plasma AI is the easiest for the droner, so the marginal increase in BPV of the AI faced will have less impact than other methods already tried.

Equalising flip times and increasing effectiveness of Plasma boats, with a marginal impact on other races, can only be good for everyone.

While I appreciate the DIPlist work, having tried the list and seen the ship prices (Kzin wise) from a Kzin point of view it is more retrograde than many other methods attempted. Line ships become even less viable as they are taxed in the same way as droners, so any attempt to break out of the few ships actually used has beeen made harder.

Making life more equal all round flipspeed wise, stops the resentment of droners being nerfed all the time, increases the effectiveness of plasma, making it more attractive to players and thus potentially increasing their numbers with increased effectivenes making the plasma boys a force to be reckoned with again.

We have tried the other routes (nerfing drones) lets try a plama boost, if it doesn't work fine, back to nerfing, if it does work more happy peeps may result.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

My thoughts are to give the plasma races some quick hex flippers with little p v p value to correspond with the pure drone boats.

Making the INT pfs and the basic tender available from the start could achieve this perhaps.

[FPF-DieHard]

My thoughts are to give the plasma races some quick hex flippers with little p v p value to correspond with the pure drone boats.

Making the INT pfs and the basic tender available from the start could achieve this perhaps.

Plasma fighters are better and cause less of a PvP imbalance.  Whatever is done to affect hex-flipping should not have a negative spillover into PvP

I agree with Chuut, you don't have to do the whole list, just a few ships.  Give the Sparrowhaxk Mauler a BPV of 85. That will work fine as a Hex-muncher and will not casue a PvP issue.

[Mog]

Gook, way way back on SG2, I gave the Roms and Gorn a 10% discount in BPV. Didn't have the effect you're suggesting it had (I flew Gorn).

I like the Drall's concept, I also think DH's suggestion is a possibility, as is Chuut's (in fact, if we aren't using a PFs andd fighters for all mod, then I think INTs should be available much earlier).

[Lepton]

I think the perspectives presented so far are totally backward.  Is this game just about hex-flipping?  If it is, we might as well throw it in the sh**can.  Everything should be done to slow down the pace of play, not speed it up. If the AI are annoying and stupid, I say you have three choices.  Eliminate them altogether (GSA campaign), make the missions that you must play with them challenging and meaningful, and/or design servers with PvP in mind.  AI missions are 90% of the D2 and we all seem to want them to be over as fast as possible.  What is the sense in that? Just so that you can have another boring AI mission, and another one, and another one, and another one, and another one, ad infinitum, for a whole frigging server???  ARGH!!!  I want interesting AI mission if that is what I am going to encounter 90% of the time, because I actually want to play the game, not just flip hexes.  I love 3v3 missions and fleet actions as much as one can love an AI mission, so I would never want to see these type of missions  or this pace of gameplay removed from a server.

I don't think there can be any sensible apriori solution to hex-flipping times.  All would need extensive testing.  Frankly, that the focus lies so much on the times and on hex-flipping is the exact problem here.  We need to offer people other incentives for playing this game than making a hex on a screen turn a certain color and campaigns should be built around marginalizing the drudgery of hex-flipping to something that people might actually enjoy, like PvP, strategy, and/or RPG elements.

It seems so bizarre to me that a Kzin is talking stabilizing hex-flipping times and not improving PvP aspects of their ships. Actually, I lied.  It doesnt't surprise me in the least. It totally bespeaks of an attitude to reshape the D2 into the old hex-flipping heaven of yore.  There has been, from my knowledge, one attempt to make the Kzin more PvP worthy.  Why is the focus not here for the Kzin??  Simple, they are hex-flipping nut cases.

There have been many impositions supposedly set upon the Kzin and those are likely to stay in place.  Gook would have us roll all this stuff back to the D2 of the past.  I don't think anyone wants that.  The DIPlist is a great idea, but it has only been used once and on a lopsided server.  Let's go with DIP for awhile and see what happens, instead of rolling back everything we have tried to put into the D2 to make it more balanced.

The very way that we are framing these D2 issues falls into the hands and mindset of the hex-flipper.  The issue is not how do we balance mission times, yada, yada, but how do we get the game to be more enjoyable and balanced.  To me, that means taking flipping as much out of the D2 picture as is possible, limiting AI interactions by boosting PvP encounters, but when needing to interact with the AI make it as interesting as possible, not as quick as possible.

[Julin Eurthyr]

Gook:

To be concise:

Gook's plan:  Plasma flips faster, no change to Mirak.  Plasma player catches Mirak, dead cat.  Plasma player then flips hex just as fast as Mirak.  Lather, rinse, repeat till Mirak homeworld falls for the first, second, third etc. time...
Feds / Klinks switch to their "line" variants, more D7Ws, C7s, D5Ls, CLCs, CFs, BCGs, etc on map, Mirak find they're stuck.  To get back into PvP race, as they are now equal to plasma in drone flip speed & have gotten no PvP help, Mirak ships undergo a metamorphosis to near-klingon weapons philoshophy.

Julin's plan:  Keep Mirak (droners) as hex-flippers, Plasma as PvPers.  Make Consumable users pay for their strength.  Source materials mention that consumable strength additions are added to either the ship itself (drones), or the overall force (fighters / PFs).  These charges are being reflected in the shiplist, and shipyard.  Due to higher PP costs in shipyard, make drones lesser to no cost (more reloads / cheaper drone speed upgrades) in proportions reflective of the source material.  Droners reliance on bases will drop due to increased free drone loadouts at start of every mission.  Steady PP drain used in keeping fast-drone ships fully armed down.  Extra time spent in mission paid for by time previously wasted going back to base every mission.  Mirak gain larger ability to deep-strike due to lesser reliance on bases...

[Cleaven]

Yes to giving the Kzinti free drones. Would love it if an SQL could be set up so that only they got it.

No to making making BPV of Romulan cruisers such that they only face shuttles which will shatter after one alpha. Maybe if line cruisers were significantly lowered we would see two good changes, while leaving the rarer command ships at normal price.

[Julin Eurthyr]

And now, to address your direct points:

Sorry Julin I don't follow your logic.

On the one hand you want to up the BPV of drone ships so they face harder AI and give them more reloads, I don't see how that affects the flip rate for plasma boys.

I'd rather the plasma boys flipped faster and thus become more effective in the bulk of the game (flipping). Than giving me more free drones but upping the AI and slowing down the game as whole.

If a standard plasma mission were say 6 minutes (arbitrary number) and the reduction in BPV allowed the same pilot to do the missions in 4 minutes he would be 50% more effective in the bulk of the game. The Drone boat still flips as fast as ever, but the differential has narrowed. I believe making the fewer pilots we have more effective for the time they are in game is a better solution than trying to render another block of pilots less effective.

Plasma mission times are somewhat-dependent on situation.  While I can't fly a stock patrol in 2 minutes, every time, I can run fast missions in certain situations already.  On Litterbox 5:
I flew 3 minute patrols in nebula
I had a stretch of 4 minute Surprised Reverse missions in an I-CAZ, when bigger ships came out, I was doing SRs in 5 minutes max. using both I-CLX and I-CCZ.
One ambush went off in less than a minute, other ambushes lasted approx. 3 minutes (once I cought the enemy, one shot eradicated them)
It's not mission times altogether, it's just in specific situations...

And here's a prime example of your 10% discount, from a Romulan perspective
You just bought a shiny new R-KHK, at around 194 BPV.  You're putzing around the galaxy, and you draw your arch-nemesis, the now 207 BPV I-CCZ.  The cheaper cost of the KHK doesn't change this fundamental matchup, and all thoughts of a 3, maybe even 5 or 10 minute mission go out the window.  You're thinking "unless I want to get my ship nearly-shredded, I need 15 minutes to dance this CCZ down..."
After that run, you cruise over to Mirak space.  Now, your repainted KHK is typically facing Z-BCVs instead of Z-CVAs.  Big gain in mission times there, a BCH instead of a DN-carrier with less weapons than the BCV...

So far as PvP is concerned, most ships used have arbitrary costs in terms of PP anyhow, and ship loss doesn't happen that often, so the slightly cheaper plasma boats PP wise is a red herring. BPV has no effect on PvP only AI.

At one point, between fleets / multi-player wolfpacks, 8000 PP of Drone Frigate was taking out 16,000 / 30k of Plasma CA / BCH.  One DF of the 3 might die before the plasma user, so the DF pilot would be out 2500 - 3000 PP of ship.
We can't stop ad-hoc fleets of pilots risking the draft system from being stronger than the sum of their parts, but we can increase the costs incurred (by higher BPV) for certain ships.  And, it's not "just someone picking on the Mirak", as the source material calls for this increase.  Ultimately, the blame for the string of cheap drone ships lies on Taldren cause they never truly implemented the BPV system, to include all additions called for originally...

So far as fighting AI are concerned facing plasma AI is the easiest for the droner, so the marginal increase in BPV of the AI faced will have less impact than other methods already tried.

Equalising flip times and increasing effectiveness of Plasma boats, with a marginal impact on other races, can only be good for everyone.

We've gotten to understand that certain races are good for certain things.  Let the droners be the hex flippers, and let Plasma be the PvPers.  If you give me faster hex times, what can we give you, that won't make you into Klingon clones, to make you better in PvP?  That's my point.  Are you willing to convince / force everyone into Plasma ships to be competitive on the PvP front, since there's no benefit to being Mirak other than 1 minute per mission, often wasted resupplying?

While I appreciate the DIPlist work, having tried the list and seen the ship prices (Kzin wise) from a Kzin point of view it is more retrograde than many other methods attempted. Line ships become even less viable as they are taxed in the same way as droners, so any attempt to break out of the few ships actually used has beeen made harder.

Hence my request to effectively kill the "drone tax".  More free reloads, up to maximum ship loadout in ships with "double drone reloads" in SFB (ie, all ships in 2275 and later), and a cheaper drone speed upgrade surcharge.  You pay all your PP for BPV in the yards, and maybe a small, one time fee, for the faster drones.

Making life more equal all round flipspeed wise, stops the resentment of droners being nerfed all the time, increases the effectiveness of plasma, making it more attractive to players and thus potentially increasing their numbers with increased effectivenes making the plasma boys a force to be reckoned with again.

We have tried the other routes (nerfing drones) lets try a plama boost, if it doesn't work fine, back to nerfing, if it does work more happy peeps may result.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Actaully Julian in PvP the mirak can hold their own pretty decently vs Feds and Klinks, but suffer vs the plasma races where the phaser 3 becomes relatively useless.  The new BCH is more competitive, and some sensible redesigns of standard cruisers with expanded dizzy arcs and split hardpoints has shown some improvement in the P v P arena.

Now in 1 v 1 the mirak are in general disadvantaged, but they do make excellent wingmen even if they cant recharge everything at speed 31 like some ships of other races.  Do we really want the more is better aspect in our P v P matches, I say only within reason.  We should have disadvantages in some areas and advantages in others.  There is a reason why we choose to fly what we do.  The only reason isn't fast mission times, although likely it factors in, but the feds and Klinks can jump in a drone boat and do basically the same thing. 

I dont think we need change the basic designs of Kzin ships, a few split hardpoints, dizzy arcs and perhaps a few variants should do the trick.  I'd love to see us have the nice assortment of BCHs the Feds have to choose from each with different strengths and weaknesses, so that we could choose based on the front we are fighting on.  No longer are races limited to the fronts of traditional enemies on most servers, so wouldn't it make sense to give other races more options as far as ship types, similar to what the feds have?  Some might be dogs like the BCE but have some roles to play.  I definately don't think we need anything generally better than what we already have, but a few lesser options with stregths vs certain other races might not be bad to see.

P.S.  I like phaser 3s

[Gwarlock]

 Heck, I ain't been flamed in a while, so here goes:

  My problem isn't with Miraki/Kzin drones at all.  It's the Freds and Klinks who go with the drone boats that rub me the wrong way.  The missile is the Kzin mainstay, but I can't remember a Freddie or Klinky who picked a standard (for the race) ship loadout, vis-a vis photons/phasers/disruptors.  I'm painting with a wide brush, I know.  I know there are pilots out there who play to their race's flavor.  But to only paint the Miraki/Kzin, while ignoring other races droneboats, IMO, will only cause frustration/problems.

Flame away!

Gwarlock

[Gook]

Mog,

I didn't know that. What was the effect? would a larger discount be required?

Julin

You seem to want one boat to do all. The Kzin frequently change boats, they just do not just play <insert FOM CC/BCH> If we need to flip, the best flipper will be chosen, if we need PvP, then one or two will get PvP boats to engage the enemy heavy units while flippers continue. It seems to me that not many other races change boats often, other than to upgrade to the next PvP uber boat. It's because of this that I used the word "perceived" in the original post because there are boats to flip fast people just do not fly them. I think that changing the way people play to the extent that would be required (change boats all the time) would be too much of a culture shock for most.

As for Kzin being useless PvP, well a lot depends on the pilot I'm experienced but not great, so I don't make too many mistakes, but I do wait for the enemy to do so, if they do not then if out gunned I'll fly off.

BPV is an inexact science and not really for discussion here, suffice to say, it never contemplated AI and was a method wherby ADB could shift product PvP in a "balanced way", ie scenarios between rule changes.

As for the drone tax rebate, if we pay for it in the yards, then we pay for it in BPV alteration which translates into bigger AI again. If every race has its slot and place, and everyone is happy, why change the standard BPVs or missions for that matter you may as well have stock everything. DIPList CMs are unplayable because of high BPV, a D5 is around 110 as are the rest of the NCLs but a CM is 129! the plus version is 136. This will not encourage any line Kzin usage it. I gave a list of concerns I had with the list before we played it, these have been borne out in the main, but I'll comment further when the DIPlist report comes out.

If plasma boys are happy with their lot, then this is indeed a wasted thread, can we here more from the Plasma pilots? Do they even think there is a problem, if there is not then I'll shut up by all means.


Cleaven

Never invisaged KCRs taking on shuttles, but smaller boats being able to flip in a simialr way to DFs etc.


DH/CR

I don't think one ship wonder fixes are the way forward, just as giving the Kzin Mogs BCH isn't the answer to all their woes.

Gwarlock

Well I may have had something to do with that in CW3, but that is another story

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Didn't want an answer to all our woes just one regarding the Z-BCH and it was a great answer, thanks again Mog.

Similarly I would like to try the INTs coming out with the basic tender from the start, might solve a woe might not, but its easy to implement and doesn't need any special rules so why not give it a go.  Be a shame to do some work intense attempts at a fix if a simple solution happens to work, and if it don't it won't cause any major headaches in the attempt.

[Cleaven]

Cleaven

Never invisaged KCRs taking on shuttles, but smaller boats being able to flip in a simialr way to DFs etc.

Well then what do you mean? At standard campaign start you are looking at Romulans in WE's (or worse Snipes or K5R's). You can't get into a KR fast enough because you have some power (and transporters). Are you thinking of making the BH a fast mission ship?

Maybe we can move on a few years to when the SparrowHawks come out but even then the best light cruiser is the SPF, but I actually like it as a light PvP ship so making it cheap may not be the right thing.

Make the WE's, KE's and KVL's really cheap and see some real Romulans take to the field.

[Gook]

Cleaven

Never invisaged KCRs taking on shuttles, but smaller boats being able to flip in a simialr way to DFs etc.

Well then what do you mean? At standard campaign start you are looking at Romulans in WE's (or worse Snipes or K5R's). You can't get into a KR fast enough because you have some power (and transporters). Are you thinking of making the BH a fast mission ship?

Maybe we can move on a few years to when the SparrowHawks come out but even then the best light cruiser is the SPF, but I actually like it as a light PvP ship so making it cheap may not be the right thing.

Make the WE's, KE's and KVL's really cheap and see some real Romulans take to the field.

Would a 90 BPV WE not help ?

[Capt Jeff]

Chuut,

No use having 4 BCH's when 2 of them are worthless, and one is just so-so.

They just hog up space in the yards where a BCF could be 

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Chuut,

No use having 4 BCH's when 2 of them are worthless, and one is just so-so.

They just hog up space in the yards where a BCF could be 

Still I wouldn't mind having an extra variant based on the old Z-BCH with a power boost, ie losing a drone rack for an extra dizzy.  Be a more effective ship vs plasma races.

As for the Fed BCHs that are crap, I'd like to see them tinkered with so that they might get flown a bit, keep the BCF as the best overall ship but make the others where they could be flown in special roles or vs specific opponents.

[Gook]

Chuut,

No use having 4 BCH's when 2 of them are worthless, and one is just so-so.

They just hog up space in the yards where a BCF could be 

Still I wouldn't mind having an extra variant based on the old Z-BCH with a power boost, ie losing a drone rack for an extra dizzy.  Be a more effective ship vs plasma races.

As for the Fed BCHs that are crap, I'd like to see them tinkered with so that they might get flown a bit, keep the BCF as the best overall ship but make the others where they could be flown in special roles or vs specific opponents.

Gahhhhhhhhhh HERETIC, BURN him more Dizzies NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooo. More Drones or P1s yes!!!

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Chuut,

No use having 4 BCH's when 2 of them are worthless, and one is just so-so.

They just hog up space in the yards where a BCF could be 

Still I wouldn't mind having an extra variant based on the old Z-BCH with a power boost, ie losing a drone rack for an extra dizzy.  Be a more effective ship vs plasma races.

As for the Fed BCHs that are crap, I'd like to see them tinkered with so that they might get flown a bit, keep the BCF as the best overall ship but make the others where they could be flown in special roles or vs specific opponents.

Gahhhhhhhhhh HERETIC, BURN him more Dizzies NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooo. More Drones or P1s yes!!!

How about a MIRV varaint for Gook then.........

That better respected senior?