Topic: #9  (Read 21449 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline KAT Chuut-Ritt

  • Vice Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 26163
  • Gender: Male
Re: #9
« Reply #40 on: August 01, 2004, 07:40:07 pm »
DH

Drone prices, BPV hikes, PP cost increases combinations of the above

<snip>


None of which are standard practice or even common.




standard no , common very

Offline KBF-Dogmatix_XC

  • Pimpmaster General
  • XenoCorp® Member
  • Lt. Junior Grade
  • *
  • Posts: 401
  • Gender: Male
Re: #9
« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2004, 07:43:44 pm »
DH

Drone prices, BPV hikes, PP cost increases combinations of the above

<snip>


None of which are standard practice or even common.




standard no , common very


Where?  What, specifically?


Actually, Chuut...now that I think about it further, I guess I can see what you mean.  Some of these things are commonly experimented with, but I don't think any of the three has proven to be overly burdensome (or necessarily successful in their aim) at any time to the droner (note I say "droner," because three races have them).  As such,none have really gained any acceptance and certainly aren't anything anyone should truly be concerned about unless they do become overly burdensome and generally accepted pratice.


« Last Edit: August 01, 2004, 09:18:20 pm by KBF-Dogmatix_XC »
Dogmatix, XC, KBF
yo' aj, Klingon Black Fleet
Director, XenoCorp Tactics and Strategy Division
DGA Board of Directors
SFC2.Net Administrator

Offline Gook

  • Catbert
  • Lt. Junior Grade
  • *
  • Posts: 405
  • Gender: Male
Re: #9
« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2004, 07:53:11 am »
Dog,

3 races have droners, but 2 have a decent selection of other ships to fly too.

Remember the Kzin have the 2nd smallest shiplist overall, 50% of which are in the FF category,the inability to fly fleest thus impacts more on the Kzin, the differences in some of the bigger ships is zero (CC and CC+) springs to mind, along with marginal changes from CA to BC etc.. Then we have restriction escort usually, which takes out more of the few effective ships (people fly MECs and MACS for the phasers not the drones, same with the DWE). The pool of alternatives is small by comparison with Feds and Kilnks who have much larger lists and many more"Heavy" alternatives to choose from. The Gorn is the smallest list, but they have a higher proportion of medium and heavy vessels, and no "restrictiions" so are actually better off.

All

I spent some time at the  weekend trying diffrent plasma races boats for flippers. With Current stock list the ISC and Gorn both had a flipper which could complete the patrol mission in 2-3 minutes (ISC CLG 86 BPV  and Gorn COM 76 BPV), the Rommies were not so lucky but a SPHG 110 BPV was running missions in around 4 minutes, with better tactics I could probably get that down. Drop the BPV by 10% and they could all run 2 .30 minute missions. These were just first attempts at fast flippers, there are probably more, but although very rough and ready, it has firmed up my thinking that  a 10% drop for plasma boys would help equalise mission times greatly while having no impact on PvP and only a very marginal effect on other races. Granted only the ISC CLG with its 6 phaser 1s and 6 transporters came nearest to a DF, DWD, MDC,D5D,E4D,G2C,NCD time, but the others were within 30 seconds of it. Food for thought or more extensive testing by 3rd parties.

Just for the record I think the E4D is the fastest and cheapest flipper in the game as its 4 rack swith heavy drones are more than enough to deal with AI BPV it faces and it costs 33% less to run as a consequence, same with the G2C.

KAT-Gook, OBS,OoW,MTA,SoK.
KAT-Fleet
Kzinti Hegemony

The God of War hates those who hesitate
.....Eurypides



el-Karnak

  • Guest
Re: #9
« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2004, 08:35:04 am »
Just make all the cheesy droner, PFTs, CVs min. BCH class and you'll start getting extra AI thrown at them in EEK patrols.  Then the mission times will balance out against plasma races. 

Making other races have no alternative but to fly hex flipping ships is not the way to go.  It's like telling all the races that they have to fly Mirak style or else. It's not exactly fair that 7 other races have to conform to one race's way of doing things. Plus, the non-Mirak races are forced to choose from one or two hex flippers rather than have the whole line shiplist selection to choose from. It's too lop-sided. It also make the game uber-boring. It's better to have the one race get better PvP ships and bring them into the fold with the other 7 races.  What was done for the Z-BCHs with Moggy's Z-BCH can be done in the Z-CL, Z-CC, Z-CCH classes.  Then you will maximize the usage of the shiplist for all races not just get numbed by always flying that F-NCD, F-CAD instead of a F-CB, F-CF, etc. or always flying that K-D5D instead of K-D5L, K-D7W, K-DWL, K-FDW, etc. and so on.  I would never play on or get involved with any dyna campaign that de facto mandated that I have to fly only one or two designated ISC hex flippers instead of the full line-up of I-CLY, I-CAx, I-CCx, etc.

 I am a ISC pilot not a Frogo-Mirak pilot. I am a Klingon pilot not a Klingo-Mirak pilot. I am a Fed pilot not a Fedo-Mirak pilot, I am a Romulan pilot not a Rommie-Mirak pilot, etc.  If I want to be a Mirak pilot then I'll fly Mirak udder-wise I wanna do what my chosen race is designed to do and nothing else.

By making life harder on the hex flippers you'll stop the droner, PFTs, CV ship selection craze in its tracks.  BTW,  it only takes a few minutes to go through the shiplist and bump up the classes on the dreaded, hex flipping, mission time imbalancers. Then the hex flipping debate is satisfactorly taken cared off.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2004, 09:00:27 am by el-Karnak »

Offline Corbomite

  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 2939
Re: #9
« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2004, 08:36:04 am »
Commando boats are usually restricted out (not that you would find any ISC flying one) and I can do faster times in a I-CA or I-CAW. If the Roms and Gorn use their NSM and SS (respectively) in combination with Enveloping torps on the AI their mission times would be 2:30 to 4 minutes on average depending on the match up in a 1v1.

I wish Commando boats weren't restricted out as the D2 is where they can do their job, but they were clogging up the shipyards and people complained about it and they disappeared.

Offline KAT Chuut-Ritt

  • Vice Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 26163
  • Gender: Male
Re: #9
« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2004, 12:21:10 pm »
Just make all the cheesy droner, PFTs, CVs min. BCH class and you'll start getting extra AI thrown at them in EEK patrols.  Then the mission times will balance out against plasma races. 

Making other races have no alternative but to fly hex flipping ships is not the way to go.  It's like telling all the races that they have to fly Mirak style or else. It's not exactly fair that 7 other races have to conform to one race's way of doing things. Plus, the non-Mirak races are forced to choose from one or two hex flippers rather than have the whole line shiplist selection to choose from. It's too lop-sided. It also make the game uber-boring. It's better to have the one race get better PvP ships and bring them into the fold with the other 7 races.  What was done for the Z-BCHs with Moggy's Z-BCH can be done in the Z-CL, Z-CC, Z-CCH classes.  Then you will maximize the usage of the shiplist for all races not just get numbed by always flying that F-NCD, F-CAD instead of a F-CB, F-CF, etc. or always flying that K-D5D instead of K-D5L, K-D7W, K-DWL, K-FDW, etc. and so on.  I would never play on or get involved with any dyna campaign that de facto mandated that I have to fly only one or two designated ISC hex flippers instead of the full line-up of I-CLY, I-CAx, I-CCx, etc.

 I am a ISC pilot not a Frogo-Mirak pilot. I am a Klingon pilot not a Klingo-Mirak pilot. I am a Fed pilot not a Fedo-Mirak pilot, I am a Romulan pilot not a Rommie-Mirak pilot, etc.  If I want to be a Mirak pilot then I'll fly Mirak udder-wise I wanna do what my chosen race is designed to do and nothing else.

By making life harder on the hex flippers you'll stop the droner, PFTs, CV ship selection craze in its tracks.  BTW,  it only takes a few minutes to go through the shiplist and bump up the classes on the dreaded, hex flipping, mission time imbalancers. Then the hex flipping debate is satisfactorly taken cared off.

I am a Mirak pilot not a Mirak -Frogo pilot etc.  So stop trying to shove extra ai down my throat Karnak!

The type of mission your prescribing here is enough to make me sit out a server using them.  Do you want everyone to be forced into your type game without a choice, something you claim to oppose.  All the mirak pilots I know have fully supported efforts to equalize the playing field as far as mission times by supporting the disengagement rule, dealing with reasonable BPV bumps etc. 

Nothing wrong with making such scripts for your own campaign of course. 

Also please inform me if these are to be used in any server, so that I can save myself the time in preparing for any such campaigns. 
« Last Edit: August 02, 2004, 12:35:02 pm by KAT Chuut-Ritt »

Offline Lepton

  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1620
Re: #9
« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2004, 12:44:14 pm »
I have the solution.  Let's just cut the Mirak out of the D2.  Problem solved. :P

I think fed and klink pilots will be less inclined to fly hex-flippers if the hex-flippers par excellence are not merely neutered but euthanized.

They're a minor race and a source of constant problems.  Just cut them out.  Problem solved.


System Specs:

Dell Dimension E521
AMD64x2 5000+
2G DDR2 RAM
ATI Radeon HD 4850 512MB GDDR3
250GB SATA HD

Offline FPF-DieHard

  • DDO Junkie
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 9461
Re: #9
« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2004, 12:45:29 pm »
Oh boy, and I though the WT flamewar was hot.  This one is about to explode . . .
Who'd thunk that Star-castling was the root of all evil . . .


Offline KAT Chuut-Ritt

  • Vice Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 26163
  • Gender: Male
Re: #9
« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2004, 01:03:21 pm »
I have the solution.  Let's just cut the Mirak out of the D2.  Problem solved. :P

I think fed and klink pilots will be less inclined to fly hex-flippers if the hex-flippers par excellence are not merely neutered but euthanized.

They're a minor race and a source of constant problems.  Just cut them out.  Problem solved.

Just get yourself a copy and play SFC1, YOUR  problem solved, just dont be surprised if you dont see too many of us there..... ;)

Offline Cleaven

  • Lt. Junior Grade
  • *
  • Posts: 375
  • Gender: Male
Re: #9
« Reply #49 on: August 02, 2004, 11:49:26 pm »
Now there's an idea, the SFC1 mod of OP.

Not sure I can be bothered, but as you are the Doc, can you run an AI standard patrol in 2 minutes in a KRC? If so, there is no problem and I am utterly wrong. If you cannot, then the KRC is a worse ship for AI missions than ones I know can.

Offline Lepton

  • Lt. Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1620
Re: #9
« Reply #50 on: August 03, 2004, 02:20:28 am »
Ah, SFC1.  Now those were the days.  No AMDs.  No plasma Ds.  Those were the drone days.

But seriously, I was just joking.  However, some times a faulty component just needs to be lifted out. ;D


System Specs:

Dell Dimension E521
AMD64x2 5000+
2G DDR2 RAM
ATI Radeon HD 4850 512MB GDDR3
250GB SATA HD

Offline KAT Chuut-Ritt

  • Vice Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 26163
  • Gender: Male
Re: #9
« Reply #51 on: August 03, 2004, 02:26:58 am »
Ah, SFC1.  Now those were the days.  No AMDs.  No plasma Ds.  Those were the drone days.

But seriously, I was just joking.  However, some times a faulty component just needs to be lifted out. ;D

And if it ain't broke don't fix it....... ;D

Offline Cleaven

  • Lt. Junior Grade
  • *
  • Posts: 375
  • Gender: Male
Re: #9
« Reply #52 on: August 03, 2004, 03:15:04 am »
All those in favour of the SFC1 Mod?

Not sure I can be bothered, but as you are the Doc, can you run an AI standard patrol in 2 minutes in a KRC? If so, there is no problem and I am utterly wrong. If you cannot, then the KRC is a worse ship for AI missions than ones I know can.

Offline KAT Chuut-Ritt

  • Vice Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 26163
  • Gender: Male
Re: #9
« Reply #53 on: August 03, 2004, 03:28:59 am »
All those in favour of the SFC1 Mod?

I'll admit on second thought those uber fast plasma might be fun to try out, and weren't drones speed 36 in late era?

Make an interesting diversion for a server.

Offline Gook

  • Catbert
  • Lt. Junior Grade
  • *
  • Posts: 405
  • Gender: Male
Re: #9
« Reply #54 on: August 03, 2004, 03:53:24 am »
Yep drone speed got nerfed for fast drones from 34 to 32.

So long since I played SFC1 I can't remember whether it had drones at all.

Speed 36 plasma, rather than speed 32 per SFB has never really been added to BPV of SFC ships, one can only speculate how much an R launcher with speed 36 plasma would cost in SFB, or an ESG that doesn't affect friendlies................ but we digress.

KAT-Gook, OBS,OoW,MTA,SoK.
KAT-Fleet
Kzinti Hegemony

The God of War hates those who hesitate
.....Eurypides



Offline Holocat

  • An even siller cat than Even SillierCats. ;3
  • Lt. Junior Grade
  • *
  • Posts: 216
Re: #9
« Reply #55 on: August 03, 2004, 03:56:10 am »
Please forgive my ignorance, not have actually played a SFCII campaign.  I don't really understand what the problem/inbalance is.  Why is the speed in which a race an flip hex's a problem?  Is the problem that the Kzinti are able to start flying DN while the plasma races are stuggling to get out of DD's?

This is one of those bleeding ulcers that have been with the D2 as long as the D2 has existed.  Here's the senario:

Let's take a ficticous server of 100 people.  50 on the alliance side, 50 on the coalition side.

Flamebait #1, Mission times;  

This is essentially gook's explanation.  Drone boats kill AI faster, leading to shorter mission times.  In the dynaverse, every mission you complete adds or subtracts a number from the hex in question;  If it is a hex belonging to your empire, the number is added. If it is an enemey hex, this number is subtracted.

So, let's show an example.  Let's say the adverage mission time for a Mirak is 5 minutes, while the adverage mission time for a Gorn is 20 minutes.  In one hour, the gorn will score 3 'points' in missions.  However, in the same span of time the Mirak may score up to 12 (less if the base is far away, but let's keep this simple for now).  
----

Flamebait #2, inept defence;  

Now, the crafty man or cat might say that a good defence can stop this cold.  It can, but defending a sector isn't as simple as sitting on it.  You see, missions are run independently of hexes;  only the result is reported.

What exactly do I mean by this?  To put it simply, missions can be run 'around' defenders, to their great chargin.  If you run a mission and there's a *free* enemy in the hex waiting for you, you will draft that enemy.  However, if someone's in the hex, but in mission, then you can run a mission, avoid this enemey, AND both missions will affect the Defence Value (DV) of that hex.

Let's show this as another example.  Let's say two mirak are assaulting a hex, with two Romulan defenders sitting on it.  The mirak, being crafty, stage their jumps into the hex in a staggered fashion.  The first mirak draws BOTH the romulan defenders, and for the next 30 minutes leads them on a merry chase which eventually causes the mirak to flee.  However, the second mirak may have racked up 6 DV points as this mirak was able to run missions 'around' the defenders.  They lose one point due to the romulans driving off one, but are still 5 points ahead in this game.
----

Flamebait #3, Sneak attack;
Now, a server may have equal numbers on each side, but during a certian period of time their may be server imbalances.  Let's say most of the alliance pilots live in America.  Thus there are certain times when these people will sleep, go to work, and other such things that prevent one from doing the important work of winning a server.

Now, a sneak attack is when a group of people wait specifically until hours that they are aware that the opposition is most vulnerable to attack.  This is hardly a mirak-only tactic, but short mission times can compound the damage done by such raids, and long mission times can limit success of races with them using this tactic.

Let's take this example:  40 americans fight for the Lyran empire, scoring 120 DVs against the mirak during the course of 4 hours.  The 20 mirak of the miraki empire get together and agree to a sneak attack.  So, they wait until there are only 5 lyrans on, and then come en-masse and counterpunch for 4 hours.

Generally, a droner race will win these contests again by grace of the first flamebait, short mission times.
----

Flamebait #4, The Great Hexx Flip-off:

One of the Dynaverse's limitations is that it is generally only conductive to a kind of hex-flipping warfare without gratitutious effort by the game's host to make it otherwise, and this is the center of the droner argument.  Drone ships do well what the dynaverse seemingly wants done, this being the efficient claiming of little hexes.  Most of the ships that can't perform fast missions can perform against players (Player versus Player or PvP) but because of 2 unless server rules are given, PvP vessels have been limited in their strategic effectiveness, hence the lines along "Rules GSA but not the Dynaverse."

The majority of server tinkering and server rules has been to try to level this field.  Bounties, VCs (as opposed to straight territorial conquest), Disengagement rules, and so on.

I suppose then that the answer to the quoted question is this:  The dynaverse, in the end, doesn't care who's in the DN and who's struggling in the DD, so long as they can take territory faster than their opponent. 
« Last Edit: August 03, 2004, 04:22:48 am by Holocat »

Offline KAT Chuut-Ritt

  • Vice Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 26163
  • Gender: Male
Re: #9
« Reply #56 on: August 03, 2004, 04:05:53 am »
and I can only think of 1 recent server with drones only on one side of the equation, GW2 which was designed based on the general war.  So what we have is an equation with both sides having drones available.  We also have statements by several experienced pilots of both drone and plasma races that all races have some fast hex flippers so your 5 to 1 mission time equation isn't necessarily accurate. 

Offline Holocat

  • An even siller cat than Even SillierCats. ;3
  • Lt. Junior Grade
  • *
  • Posts: 216
Re: #9
« Reply #57 on: August 03, 2004, 04:14:15 am »
and I can only think of 1 recent server with drones only on one side of the equation, GW2 which was designed based on the general war.  So what we have is an equation with both sides having drones available.  We also have statements by several experienced pilots of both drone and plasma races that all races have some fast hex flippers so your 5 to 1 mission time equation isn't necessarily accurate. 

In practice yes.  As to argument, most of the droner strangling is plasma vs. drone times, and that is thus what I am demonstrating.

Of course, this leads to allied territory mission running problems (which I think were since solved, mostly, but were a problem for some time) and distance to base(your race's base, not an allied base) being a critical element in droner strategy, not to mention the release years for ships that people want or need for specific tasks and the racial 'golden eras,' and how AI draw for certain empires at certain years for certain ships or classes of ship affect mission times but these complications are something I want to avoid, or i'll never come to a useful conclusion.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2004, 04:29:24 am by Holocat »