Topic: Loknars and connies  (Read 1860 times)

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Offline Starforce2

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Loknars and connies
« on: July 30, 2004, 07:16:47 am »
How do the loknars compare to the connies in combat ability?

Offline FoaS_XC

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Re: Loknars and connies
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2004, 01:05:43 am »
Personally, i am under the impression that Loknars are a little worse off than Mirandas, but not quite as bad as an Akula or Saladin (assuming you are working with a TMP Loknar)
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Offline Wolfsglen

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Re: Loknars and connies
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2004, 06:19:17 am »
Loknars are *technically* a Frigate...which in FASA terms means it probably has the firepower of a BC  ;D

But realistically speaking,  she would have less firepower than an equivalent-era Connie, as FOS said, somewhere between a Miranda and a DD+ is pretty good (i use my TOS era Loknar as a DD and my TMP one as a DD+ currently, just because its easier)

Offline Bernard Guignard

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Re: Loknars and connies
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2004, 09:11:44 am »
Starforce 2
  I suggest you go to this link to compare the ships with regards to  thier abilites based on a similar game.
then you can cross over those results to the game.

http://www.sub-odeon.com/stsstcsmua/

Good Luck

Offline zerosnark

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Re: Loknars and connies
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2004, 09:34:21 am »

I always thought of the Locknar as a NCL.

And yes, in FASA terms, frigates tend to be closer to BCH's than FF's.

Offline KtHyla

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Re: Loknars and connies
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2004, 09:59:46 am »
I just happen to have a copy of FASA's Fed Starship Recog Manual. FASA's idea of a frigate is pretty wierd, so take this with a grain of salt:

Connie Refit (or Mk1 Enterprise Class in FASA):

Superstructure: 26
Length: 302m
Crew: 412
Shuttles: 12
Power Units: 60
Movement Point Ratio: 4/1
Warp: 8/10
Phasers: 6
Phaser Power: 10
Torps: 2
Torp Power: 20
Shield Effiicency: 1/4
Shield Power: 16
Defense Factor: 145.2
Weapon Damage Factor: 89.2

Loknar (Refit? From same date as Enterprise Mk1):

Superstructure: 24
Length: 290m
Crew: 84
Shuttles: 2
Power Units: 42
Movement Point Ratio: 2/1
Warp: 6/8
Phasers: 8
Phaser Power: 4
Torps: 4
Torp Power: 12
Shield Effiicency: 1/2
Shield Power: 15
Defense Factor: 114.3
Weapon Damage Factor: 51.6

Miranda (or Mk2 Reliant Class in FASA), just for good measure:

Superstructure: 24
Length: 233m
Crew: 346
Shuttles: 4
Power Units: 52
Movement Point Ratio: 4/1
Warp: 6/8
Phasers: 4
Phaser Power: 10
Torps: 2
Torp Power: 20
Shield Effiicency: 1/3
Shield Power: 14
Defense Factor: 110.8
Weapon Damage Factor: 67.8

From their stats, the Loknar should handle itself better in combat slightly better than a Miranda, but doesn't dish out quite as much damage per volley. Bear in mind the game designers didn't bother with the aft/ventral phasers on the Connie or the aft torps on the Miranda for some reason. Despite being as large as a TOS Connie, the Loknar's twice as maneuverable as a Refit Connie and has twice the shield efficency...

Offline zerosnark

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Re: Loknars and connies
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2004, 02:13:20 pm »
The Fasa game system had both good and bad points.

The firepower of frigates and firepower as a function of size was one problem.
Bad kitbashes was another problem.

But one thing that was nice was the variety of phaser and torpedo weapons. Imagine having more than 3 phaser types to choose from! The "shield efficiency" concept was also cool.

Offline RBM

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Re: Loknars and connies
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2004, 08:02:49 pm »

I always thought of the Locknar as a NCL.

And yes, in FASA terms, frigates tend to be closer to BCH's than FF's.
That's because, IIRC, FASA used a 17th/18th century take on the term "frigate". At that time, they were among the largest, most powerful fighting ships. U.S.S. Constitution, aka "Old Ironsides" and her sister ships are frigates. It seems backward, but at least the logic of it plays into Roddenberry's whole "Hornblower in Space" theme for the original show.

Offline zerosnark

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Re: Loknars and connies
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2004, 09:50:43 am »
In the 17th/18th century, Frigates such as the Constitution were considered "4th rates". The early US had success with these ships because they were very large, and overgunned, 4th rates with good sailing qualities. Anything larger than 4th rate Frigates tended to operate in fleets and not operate independently. 

The basic British "ship of the line" had about 74 guns on two full gun decsk (vs the 50 or so of the overgunned US frigates with basically 1 1/2 gun decks). British 1st rates (such as HMS Victory) had over 100 guns on three gun decks.

Ship types tend to vary with the technology. In the 17th/18th century, there was no such thing as a cruiser or a destroyer. The destinction between "light" and "heavy" cruisers in WWII was an arbitrary designation created by the Washington treaties (based upon gun size).

Today, the primary difference between a cruiser and destroyer in the US navy is that cruisers are skippered by Captains, and Destroyers are skippered by Commanders. Combat capabilities of these two types have been blurred for twenty years.

So it is easy to think that Designations in the Trek universe are different. SFB (and hence SFC) tried to force fit starships to the old WWII designations. FASA tried to do the same, with the exception of these frigates such as the Chandly, Northampton, and Locknar.

Offline Magnum357

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Re: Loknars and connies
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2004, 07:41:25 pm »
Yes, you are correct.  SFB did catagorize ships by the old WWII system (where FF was the smallest of Warships and BB was the largest, this would also apply to their firepower aswell).  But I was under the impression that FASA based Frigates, Destroyers, Crusiers on how our Navy classifies warships today?  I thought Frigates in our Navy are very powerful because they have a wide variety of capabilites (mostly good offenseive Missile suit) while Destroyers where more Single role warships that don't have the wide capabilites that frigates have.  And Crusiers are basically "Super Frigates" as they have even more fire power and capabilites then Friagtes do.  Maybe I'm wrong on this, but that is how I thought FASA classified them.
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Offline zerosnark

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Re: Loknars and connies
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2004, 11:48:28 pm »
Well, keep in mind that the FASA game is from the mid-80's. Things in today's navy are a bit different than in the 80's, which were in turn different than the 60's.

In the late '60's, the US navy had a large number of WWII vintage gun cruisers and gun destroyers in the fleet. The new fangled missle ships being built were designed without significant guns and were classed as frigates. Keep in mind that the reliability of the missles in the 60s and 70s was a bit suspect.

In 1975, it was realized that all the old WWII ships were pretty much done and that the real power in the navy was in these new missle frigates. In 1975, all of the missle frigates were reclassified as either missle destroyers (DDG) or missle cruisers (CG). I guess the missles were getting "better". All of the old CA's and CL's were basically out of the fleet. The cruisers tended to be a bit more powerful or larger (in 1975 terms) than the destroyers.

In the 1980's, the US was building the Ticonderoga/Bunker Hill Cruisers, the Spurance Destroyers, and the Perry class frigates. The older cruisers and destroyers were smaller than these new ships, but had firepower "in between" the new cruisers and destroyers.

The Perry class frigates had a full suite of weapons, but are small ships with only a single shaft and and engine (vs two shafts on the larger ships). The Spurance Destroyers and Tico's shared the same hull and engines, but the Ticos had vastly superior sensors and missles. There were also four Kidd class destroyers which were basically Tico's without the fancy Aegis radars. The Kidd's could easily have been rated as cruisers.

***so bottom line: In the '80s, the frigates were small; the cruisers larger and the destroyers in between. Although there were exceptions, the cruisers tended to have better radars, missle control, and higher missle loadouts.

In the 1990's, the system became very muddled as all the cold war missle cruisers and missle destroyers were *all* retired and the US began builiding the Burke class destroyers. The Burkes are only slightly smaller than the new Tico's, carry basically the same Aegis radars and the same missles (only 75% load, however). The newest Burke destroyers even have helicopters like the cruisers. No kidding, the Burke class destroyers are better than almost anything in existance overseas. It is not clear that there are any tasks that a Tico cruiser can perform that a newer Burke can not also perform.

***So what does this mean for FASA? Don't know. This game was from the 80's, while the US navy was still undergoing the Reagan 600 ship buildup. From my perspective, the "Frigates" in this game are basically like "cruisers", except without the exploration and endurance capabilities. As a result, compared to a Connie, a Locknar does not need a secondary hull to carry stores and shuttles to still mount heavy firepower. The later Northampton and Chandley Frigates are large ships with heavy firepower, but I don't really see these ships on a "five year mission" like a contempory Enterprise class cruiser.



Offline KtHyla

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Re: Loknars and connies
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2004, 09:02:02 am »
I forgot KA.com had a tactical section that outlines the roles of the current classes rather well. Thankfully, there's little difference in the implimentation of these classifications between SFC and KA, since they're both based on SFB:

http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~klingonacademy/forum/view.php?pg=TacticalShips

Having reviewed this, the Loknars should probably be CLs...

Offline Klingon Fanatic

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Re: Loknars and connies
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2004, 10:03:57 pm »
***So what does this mean for FASA? Don't know. This game was from the 80's, while the US navy was still undergoing the Reagan 600 ship buildup. From my perspective, the "Frigates" in this game are basically like "cruisers", except without the exploration and endurance capabilities. As a result, compared to a Connie, a Locknar does not need a secondary hull to carry stores and shuttles to still mount heavy firepower. The later Northampton and Chandley Frigates are large ships with heavy firepower, but I don't really see these ships on a "five year mission" like a contempory Enterprise class cruiser.


Scratches head, yeah I've been thinking about moving the USS Phobos out of the FDX slot to the FCL slot myself. I guess this means the Akyazi [Akula sub-class] should move into my FDX slot now...

I agree with this overall as I played FASA Trek in the 1980s.

I still would beg to differ regarding the Chandley class *cough* frigate. I believe that if FASA Trek were made today it would be a CRUISER [my personal preference is heavy cruiser] and that it could be a fine multipurpose platform under the Klingon Academy definition of cruiser [i. e.,Troop carrier, hospital, colonization or heavily equipped science exploration ship]. Talk about show the flag with a versitle ship. Compare the FASA Trek TMP Connie refit to the Chandley and you'll see what I mean. That's just my two cents of course.

On a personal note, I had a friend who put FASA's 'lost' USS Blackheart [Chandley class] into the Andromedan galaxy for a campaign once and he had a Malmakian [1980s ALF TV show] engineer NPC that was halarious... "Give me a hydrospanner, a wad of chewing gum, some duct tape and a ham sandwhich and I'll have the warp engines back online in time for a cat barbacue.." LOL

BTW: anybody heard from Destiny Calling? He was making more Chandley class variants....

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Offline zerosnark

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Re: Loknars and connies
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2004, 07:47:55 am »
KF:

I agree. Although FASA uses a steroid definition of Frigate, in my personal shiplist I use a TOS Locknar alongside Atrahasis's Chicago as NCLs. The Northampton and Chandley are basically first generation X ships (along side the TMP enterprise)

Offline KtHyla

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Re: Loknars and connies
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2004, 07:56:08 am »
Thirded, the Chandley has always seemed even more CA than most of the FFs in FASA, of which seem rather CL to begin with.

Forgot about this wonderful FASA STTCS site:

http://www.sub-odeon.com/stsstcsmua/