Topic: 7 & 8

[Gook]

7. All parties encouraged to politik and use ruse guerre and anything else to make the peripherals and game build up fun.

8. Spying probably out but is a Rommie trait

Not really "in Game" issues but can enhance the overall experience.

I guess we still do some 7.

8. Is the contentious one, it can cause all sorts of problems, but having said that can be considered racial traits for Rommies and Frogs.

I shall not voice an opinion, but what do the rest think?

[FPF-DieHard]

Spying is cheating.   The players who participate in that should be flamed until they cry for their mother and banned from the game.

[Gook]

Spying is cheating.   The players who participate in that should be flamed until they cry for their mother and banned from the game.

Let's play a little "Devils Advocate" here. Why is spying cheating? Not mentioned in the rule book anywhere? It can be guarded against. It is a normal product of Human conflict.

Nimitz didn't say before Midway, OK we've cracked IJN 34, but can't use it because its cheating, So I'll ignore the fact that Yamamoto has sent Nagumo to take Midway with 4 Carriers and a Battleship fleet. Just intrigued. Yes I know its a game and not "real" war, but we simulate blowing stuff up all the time and "killing" sentient beings, so why not have another "normal" facet of simulated conflict.

I am not saying I'm for or against, I am intrigued as to the reasoning behind the vehemence of the reply.

[FPF-DieHard]

Don't you have ambulances to chase? 

Spying is stricted prohibited in all major campaign since it was first discovered that a few dis-honorable weasels were doing it.

This is a game, not a war.

[Cleaven]

Spying is cheating.   The players who participate in that should be flamed until they cry for their mother and banned from the game.

And just how can you ban them from the game?

[FPF-DieHard]

Spying is cheating.   The players who participate in that should be flamed until they cry for their mother and banned from the game.

And just how can you ban them from the game?

Block their IPs, erase their accounts, unleash Dizzy on them to get medieval.

[Cleaven]

Maybe you misheard. I asked how you could ban them from the game?

[FPF-DieHard]

Maybe you misheard. I asked how you could ban them from the game?

You really can't, you can just block them from a particular campaign.

Can't ban them from the game, but you can make their lives such hell that they'll leave.

[SPQR Renegade]

Please don't re-open the great spying debate. Unless someone can come up with some sanctioned method of "spying" that does not include RL self mis-representation or hacking, let's just move on.

It's just not worth it.

[Cleaven]

I don't even think you can do that. And this is a classic weakness of the rules that the D2 server admins use. They cannot enforce them. Rotating IP's, free e-mail addresses, and the open nature of the D2 server login means that you are left in the role of toothless tiger.  

[el-Karnak]

Maybe you misheard. I asked how you could ban them from the game?

You really can't, you can just block them from a particular campaign.

Can't ban them from the game, but you can make their lives such hell that they'll leave.

Simply refuse to play PvP with them even if it costs you banning time from the hex. If enough players do it then the persona non grata will be shamed from the dynaverse premises.  The whole dyna campaign will simply collapse into chaos because the players refuse to get involved and before you know it the campaign will get pulled.

Social banning is a far more ancient, time-honored and effectively ruthless technique that precedes any technical banning methods by thousands of years.

[FPF-DieHard]

I don't even think you can do that. And this is a classic weakness of the rules that the D2 server admins use. They cannot enforce them. Rotating IP's, free e-mail addresses, and the open nature of the D2 server login means that you are left in the role of toothless tiger.  

You can take the server down.

[Cleaven]

I don't even think you can do that. And this is a classic weakness of the rules that the D2 server admins use. They cannot enforce them. Rotating IP's, free e-mail addresses, and the open nature of the D2 server login means that you are left in the role of toothless tiger.  

You can take the server down.

So you still haven't succeeded in banning a rule breaker, just taken away the rules which may be what they wanted in the first place.

[FPF-DieHard]

Do you have a point other than being annoying?

We could bring in passwords and only give the passwords to people we trust.   If that gets leaked and the a-hole in question comes back, change the password. 

Special daily-rotating downloads could be set up for security as well.  An SCR file could be change daily and then only emailed to those players who are welcome on the server.

Security can be set up.  Fortunately, we have not had to do this as the players we have left are honorable and only break the rules by mistake.

[Cleaven]

Perhaps you've failed to grasp the concept that banning is just a little hard to do?

[FPF-DieHard]

Perhaps you've failed to grasp the concept that banning is just a little hard to do?

No, I am aware that it is hard to do but it is still a doable option.  Hopefully we will not need to do it.

[Gook]

I see a lot of hot air but no reasoning why there should not be spying.

If an individual server admin wants to ban it then fine, there is still the problem of finding who and enforcement.

That still does not answer the question why not?

There is no "rule" in D2 that says no spying, although I'll grant you there has been a convention that we do not do it, but again, why?

[Hexx]

I'd say the convention is we haven't done it because there's no point.
It's a stupid idea for a game that we try and present as opne for everyone.
The point was made that Nimitz used "spyin". Not quite the same thing- the Americans didn't get the Japanese plans by
1)creating a new user account on a forum, saying "Hi I'm new to playing, I'd like to try Fed"
2) Being given access to the forums so the "new" player can learn how to fly and ask questions
3) Looking at the plans.

I'd say spying would be fine for a server if
-the server had a sign up
-only people that everyone knows ere allowed to play on it
-once the server started no on else was allowed to join
-anyone caught hacking a website or db for "espionage" purposes was executed (in real life) to demonstrate the dangers of being caught spying during wartime.

[Gook]

I'd say the convention is we haven't done it because there's no point.
It's a stupid idea for a game that we try and present as opne for everyone.
The point was made that Nimitz used "spyin". Not quite the same thing- the Americans didn't get the Japanese plans by
1)creating a new user account on a forum, saying "Hi I'm new to playing, I'd like to try Fed"
2) Being given access to the forums so the "new" player can learn how to fly and ask questions
3) Looking at the plans.

I'd say spying would be fine for a server if
-the server had a sign up
-only people that everyone knows ere allowed to play on it
-once the server started no on else was allowed to join
-anyone caught hacking a website or db for "espionage" purposes was executed (in real life) to demonstrate the dangers of being caught spying during wartime.

Sound reasoning.

Just the RP side of things would seem to imply certain traits on certain races, but you have given concrete reasoning, rather than gut reaction. Thank you.

[Mog]

I see a lot of hot air but no reasoning why there should not be spying.

If an individual server admin wants to ban it then fine, there is still the problem of finding who and enforcement.

That still does not answer the question why not?

There is no "rule" in D2 that says no spying, although I'll grant you there has been a convention that we do not do it, but again, why?

How about because it creates a bucketload of resentment between players when the spies are caught?

[Gook]

How about because it creates a bucketload of resentment between players when the spies are caught?

Isn't that what is supposed to happen to spies? Betrayal is never pretty, but can affect things in a big way.

[Mog]

So you have no problems with resentment between PLAYERS of a GAME?

[Hexx]

I'd say the convention is we haven't done it because there's no point.
It's a stupid idea for a game that we try and present as opne for everyone.
The point was made that Nimitz used "spyin". Not quite the same thing- the Americans didn't get the Japanese plans by
1)creating a new user account on a forum, saying "Hi I'm new to playing, I'd like to try Fed"
2) Being given access to the forums so the "new" player can learn how to fly and ask questions
3) Looking at the plans.

I'd say spying would be fine for a server if
-the server had a sign up
-only people that everyone knows ere allowed to play on it
-once the server started no on else was allowed to join
-anyone caught hacking a website or db for "espionage" purposes was executed (in real life) to demonstrate the dangers of being caught spying during wartime.

Sound reasoning.

Just the RP side of things would seem to imply certain traits on certain races, but you have given concrete reasoning, rather than gut reaction. Thank you.

NP -See you made the mistake of listening to DH, who made the mistake of listening to Cleave, who I'm thinking was listening to the stuff he was smoking.
-I would actually like to see "spying" being something we could do, as well as a whole OOB server and stuff. Problem is I simply don't see how it's feasible.

[Gook]

So you have no problems with resentment between PLAYERS of a GAME?

If a person chooses to be a pariah, that is up to them.

Personally I'd never do it (there said it), but it is something which a role playing Rommie for example could be expected to do, and therefore another impoderable to be factored into planning and the like. People don't like having more players on one side than another, or a shiplist imbalance, etc,etc. but they are facets of the game which cause resentment, this is just another of those things. I don't know that I'm aware of any game where there is not resentment between players, except possiblr Pong

[Mog]

Gook, I'm beginning to think you're trolling. You know what happened on the ISC/Klingon v everyone server, and yet you continue to bring this up.

[FPF-DieHard]

Gook, I'm beginning to think you're trolling. You know what happened on the ISC/Klingon v everyone server, and yet you continue to bring this up.

Maybe he isn't trolling.  I think Gook is trying to stir the pot so see what comes up.

Maybe "espionage" could be added in some way by the admins in the form of leaking information (IE, secret VCs) if certain other objective are achieved?

[Gook]

Gook, I'm beginning to think you're trolling. You know what happened on the ISC/Klingon v everyone server, and yet you continue to bring this up.

LOL if I don't agree with you I'm Trolling!! very droll.

Quite the contrary to trolling, I'm trying to get to the bottom of a lot "issues" which a few seem to take for granted, but there seems to be little basis for by rational argument.

Spying is part of all conflict, yes this is a game , but it seeks to simulate conflict. There are many unjust things in the game, but just saying they are unjust without reason other than you don't like them when there are many arguments in favour just seems a little too arbitrary, and dare I say dictatorial.

If the current convention is to be converted to a hard and fast rule we should at least air the pros and cons.

Both Hexx and Cleaven have pointed out problems with an arbitrary finding, so much better if such a rule becomes "Law" if there is sound reasoning behind it.

I repeat I was  being "Devils Advocate".

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

I'm thinking like Die Hard here in that it could be included as an aspect but not by having spies in the forums.

What you do is have it as a VC type situation.

Imagine a Romulan VC where they have to penetrate enemy lines so many hexes and place a base.  This base is actually a listening post and a launching point of spies.  Achieving this VC would allow them limited info about some enemy secret VC in the area.  Of course this need not be limited to the Roms, as the other races had their own intelligence services Whiskers and section 31 being notable.

Counter intelligence could be involved too.  Say the Feds achieve an intelligence operation as well as the Roms.  Well the Roms still get their info, but it is more vague and only one of three bits of info they get the other two of which are false deceptions of section 31.

Point is, to make spying work in the fashion where there is no forum or teamspeak/ventrillo channel invasion, no false accounts and no ill will.  Instead used admin side VCs and information to simulate spying instead.

[Lepton]

Gook, as far as I am concerned, you qualify yourself as pariah for even vaguely advocating spying of any sort.  I suggest that you realize that this is a game where fairness and equality are the watchwords.  You have thus far, to me, completely advanced an agenda for your race, and that you would lobby for spying suggests to me unequivocably that you would use it.     

As for the political alliances BS, um, hello!!!!!  Do you have any sense of how divided and fractured this community can be and currently is??  Now you want to introduce more politicing?  Can you imagine the effect of broken promises/alliances and politicing in this community in the context of an active and contentious D2 campaign.  You are living in the past, dude.  Perhaps back in the old days where there were people waiting to enter a full server you could afford to piss people off and drive them away through such duplicitous actions as spying and politicing and the game would not suffer, but we have worked toward eliminating such crap from this community.

Now, I will actually introduce something of worth into this discourse as opposed to Gook's divisive agenda.  Chuut beat me to it though.  Spying could be simulated as he suggests by revealing of certain secret VC conditions if the opposing side meets some goal, takes some hex, etc.  Whatever seems appropriate.  Perhaps in server that allocate build points, empires could spend them to learn of enemies' secret VC conditions.   I personally do not think folks will go for this unless the price to pay in time and/or effort were seriously substantial as to deflect an empire from working on other fronts.  Essentially, the price for spying would have to be prohibitive and the choice to use that option as substantial and decisive in the campaign.

I personally find the spying option to be unnecessary.  Do we all remember the cry that went up on both sides in RDSL when each race's store of Lost Tech ships was revealed to the other side and the timing of those revelations??  I think it is best to avoid things that can be contentious as opposed to producing them.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Lepton you fail to understand the workings of Gook's mind.

I think he was more interested in seeing what new ideas we could come up with rather than launching a crusade to include actual spying.  One of the ways to get feedback is to "shock" people to stimulate their thinking, otherwise new approach possibilities might get lost as we "stick" to the same old routines without questioning them and looking for new possibilities.

[Mog]

Gook, I'm beginning to think you're trolling. You know what happened on the ISC/Klingon v everyone server, and yet you continue to bring this up.

LOL if I don't agree with you I'm Trolling!! very droll.

Quite the contrary to trolling, I'm trying to get to the bottom of a lot "issues" which a few seem to take for granted, but there seems to be little basis for by rational argument.

Spying is part of all conflict, yes this is a game , but it seeks to simulate conflict. There are many unjust things in the game, but just saying they are unjust without reason other than you don't like them when there are many arguments in favour just seems a little too arbitrary, and dare I say dictatorial.

If the current convention is to be converted to a hard and fast rule we should at least air the pros and cons.

Both Hexx and Cleaven have pointed out problems with an arbitrary finding, so much better if such a rule becomes "Law" if there is sound reasoning behind it.

I repeat I was  being "Devils Advocate".

I'll withdraw the trolling thought on the grounds of you being devil's advocate.

Now, as we/you seem to be examining ways to have d2 simulate a conflict in a more realistic manner, what about the obvious one? Death. Lose your ship in enemy or neutral space, start a new character. Then, tying that into the espionage theme, there could be assassinations (Yamamoto, for example).

Or, how about courts martial/discommendation for running from/being destroyed by (in home space) inferior odds? Heh, this ideas thing is quite fun

[Lepton]

Lepton you fail to understand the workings of Gook's mind.

I think he was more interested in seeing what new ideas we could come up with rather than launching a crusade to include actual spying.  One of the ways to get feedback is to "shock" people to stimulate their thinking, otherwise new approach possibilities might get lost as we "stick" to the same old routines without questioning them and looking for new possibilities.

I really don't think this is true.  He has basically advocated for an "old" style server since he has come on the scene.  If he wants to stimulate discourse, he need only ask, but his little list is a laundry list of his desires, most of which were thrown out of this community with DN fests and patrol bugs.  It's ancient history.  The past is dead.  Let it stay there. 

Furthermore, he has advocated a position that would actually constrain the diversity of servers with his little "standardization" agenda which is a mere ruse for a good old hex-flipping server.  You don't bring new ideas to the table or inspire people to create new ones by taking away the freedom and the tools to make interesting servers, those tools being ultimately custom shiplists and mission packs.  The GW series, RDSL, DOE, SS2, SG3, all these servers would have no place in Gook's "standard" of a hex-flipping mirak heaven of his own design.  It's simply not what any of us want here as far as I can tell.

[Cleaven]

My point is that these days we have a lot of (sometimes complex) rules that are hard to police and impossible to enforce with penalties.

[Julin Eurthyr]

Lepton you fail to understand the workings of Gook's mind.

I think he was more interested in seeing what new ideas we could come up with rather than launching a crusade to include actual spying.  One of the ways to get feedback is to "shock" people to stimulate their thinking, otherwise new approach possibilities might get lost as we "stick" to the same old routines without questioning them and looking for new possibilities.

I really don't think this is true.  He has basically advocated for an "old" style server since he has come on the scene.  If he wants to stimulate discourse, he need only ask, but his little list is a laundry list of his desires, most of which were thrown out of this community with DN fests and patrol bugs.  It's ancient history.  The past is dead.  Let it stay there. 

Furthermore, he has advocated a position that would actually constrain the diversity of servers with his little "standardization" agenda which is a mere ruse for a good old hex-flipping server.  You don't bring new ideas to the table or inspire people to create new ones by taking away the freedom and the tools to make interesting servers, those tools being ultimately custom shiplists and mission packs.  The GW series, RDSL, DOE, SS2, SG3, all these servers would have no place in Gook's "standard" of a hex-flipping mirak heaven of his own design.  It's simply not what any of us want here as far as I can tell.

Whether Gook is ultimately pining for an "old style" hex-flipping haven server where the rest of us are support troops to the drone boat, or he's actually trying to improve the game by helping us integrate concepts lost in the quest for "balance" and "equaity" shouldn't be our concern.

If there is a way to constructively take what he's doing, and improve the game because of it, then the right thing has been done.  That's all I care about when I respond to these threads.  Does the discussion that comes from it help the game?

In one spot, it already has.  There is a post in the DIP recommending free drones and cheap if not free speed upgrades to all future admins who seek to use the DIP shiplist.

Lepton, you've got some ideas on that head of yours.  There's people willing to work, help, whatever.  Get a server concept together, you've got a good basis already started.  Take it, refine it, work with people to make it happen, then post it up to the ultimate judge.  The players.  Who know, you might come up with the next great innovation for the D2...

[Green]

I see a lot of hot air but no reasoning why there should not be spying.

A lot of posts, didn't read all of them (so shoot me).  The reason why spying shouldn't be allowed is that we will then need to respond by throwing up a bunch of defenses that will prevent spying.  For example...

Doggy, Tracey ... sorry, you can't approve access to race forums in sfc2.net ... I don't care if you are the only admins for it.  Only the designated race's RM can do so.  What you don't like that rule?  Fine, then race X will use a newly established super secret handshake test required forum that can only allow access to those that pass the super secret handshake test.  This forum will have a single admin (the RM) who alone can permit access.  BTW, no one will visit the new super secret access forum since it is now a pain in the ass to get access to.

Jinn and all others, no dropping in on other race's TS2, RW, Ventrilo channels because unlike in the past when cheating was verboten it is now okay and we can no longer accept your dumb-ass excuse that you were stopping by to say hello.  Instead you are now labeled a spy ... you bastard.

Hi newbie.  I am sorry, but I can't trust you.  For I do not recognize your name.  Thus you must be a spying bastard that I must ostracize.

[Commander Maxillius]

Thus explains why I don't roleplay here much.  When I first signed up, I was Romulan, and I was a bit saddened to find that "spying" was against the rules.  I thought, "oh my god, what a bunch of losers to complain about spying in a game, A FREAKIN GAME!!"  So your plans get messed up from time to time, big deal.  I love this game because it's challenging.  Oh, I know why, it makes you think harder.  I say spying should be allowed, because it makes things a lot more interesting and opens up the RP field to more than the Feds, Klinks, and KATs.

Yeah, I'm a little bitter about it, and I could care less about the opinions of everyone who likes everything to be "balanced" and "fair" when they know the reason they picked their race is so they can school everyone on the map.  That's what makes the game fun, you have to THINK about what the opponent is going to do, and what they may or may not know about you and/or your plans.

[Holocat]

Let's try analogy.

If I am ever really in command of a battleship, I will certainly use every dirty trick I can to stay alive.

When I am playing battleship, I probably won't, as the person across from me will get mad if I look at his board or hit him with a glass bottle if he sinks my PT boat.

Why?  Well, in the former case, when my enemy dies, he's usually dead.  If he's not, he's probably a prisoner and not ranking particularly high on the 'priority for human rights' scale, conventions or no.

In the latter case, I probably see this person regularly.  He's playing battleship with me, after all.  Maybe I drink with him, and share intrests.  We talk a lot, and maybe argue a bit too.

The point?  In the former case, the war is real, and thus Rules of Engagement are Farcical.  In the latter case the war is a farce, and thus the Rules of Engagement are real.  I can simply kill the prisoner, but the fellow gamer?
----


Let's examine the gut reactions so far.

First, it does not appear to many people an 'accurate' thing to do, given that anonymity is a relatively simple matter in this immensity of nothing that is electronic communication.  As any critic would point out, however, ease is not a limiter in war.  Real war at least.

Second, it evokes a common gut reaction among many players.  A 'common law' concerning gamesmanship so to speak.  This is not just something unique to our community, but shared by a variety of different games played in a vast array of different styles.

What does this all ultimately say?

First, we're a community.  We argue (and enjoy seeing people argue, as there is never anything good on TV), we talk about drinking, we make jokes and do most of the things an online community does.  Even as online communities go we are a shade more chummy.  Closer.  Could explain all the arguing.

As a community, we are centered around a game called Starfleet Command and all its children, for better or worse.  As such, we live with one another in a varying state of (physical) peace before, during, and after each game.  To make sure we do nothing worse than threaten and jeer one another, we have formed a set of social rules.  Identities even.  As any social unit, we remain civil by following those rules.

So why do we have no spying?  The consequences.  The rule exists.  To reject it arbitrarily would in the very least divide the community, and at worst, dissolve it.  After all, we've seen the results from previous servers.

Why treat a war game different than war?  The consequences.  In war a prisioner is, at best, a dog and is treated as such.  At worse... well at worse we can debase ourselves in their treatment.  An enemy is nothing more than someone whom you must kill, or capture.  Treating each other in such a manner would, again, be disruptive to the community at a level I would not like to see.  Wars can be manufactured into games, but the wars that spark the game's manufacture are not themselves games.

[Lepton]

Gook, I'm beginning to think you're trolling. You know what happened on the ISC/Klingon v everyone server, and yet you continue to bring this up.

LOL if I don't agree with you I'm Trolling!! very droll.

Quite the contrary to trolling, I'm trying to get to the bottom of a lot "issues" which a few seem to take for granted, but there seems to be little basis for by rational argument.

Spying is part of all conflict, yes this is a game , but it seeks to simulate conflict. There are many unjust things in the game, but just saying they are unjust without reason other than you don't like them when there are many arguments in favour just seems a little too arbitrary, and dare I say dictatorial.

If the current convention is to be converted to a hard and fast rule we should at least air the pros and cons.

Both Hexx and Cleaven have pointed out problems with an arbitrary finding, so much better if such a rule becomes "Law" if there is sound reasoning behind it.

I repeat I was  being "Devils Advocate".

I hate people who take a devil's advocate position.  Either have the balls to state your real opinion or don't use the devil's advocate gambit to disguise what you are actually arguing for.  The devil's advocate position is solipsistic musing not representing any true state of affairs.  Let me play devil's advocate for a moment.  Why not rotting fur??  Why not mod/hacks??  Why not trojan horse attacks on an opponent's PCs?  Why not hack into the server and alter the database??  Simple, because it's not fair play.

The reason for no spying is simple.  It is by definition a violation of a simple basic ethic and social contract.  If you need that explained to you in some fashion then it is no wonder you are an attorney.  I mean, you're some piece of work to demand from folks offer a reasoned arguement as to why it's a bad idea.  It is so transparent that one must resort to philosophy to articulate it as it is so simple to those who get it, but unintelligible to those who don't.

[Cleaven]

I hate people who take a devil's advocate position.  Either have the balls to state your real opinion or don't use the devil's advocate gambit to disguise what you are actually arguing for.  The devil's advocate position is solipsistic musing not representing any true state of affairs.  Let me play devil's advocate for a moment.  Why not rotting fur??  Why not mod/hacks??  Why not trojan horse attacks on an opponent's PCs?  Why not hack into the server and alter the database??  Simple, because it's not fair play.

The reason for no spying is simple.  It is by definition a violation of a simple basic ethic and social contract.  If you need that explained to you in some fashion then it is no wonder you are an attorney.  I mean, you're some piece of work to demand from folks offer a reasoned arguement as to why it's a bad idea.  It is so transparent that one must resort to philosophy to articulate it as it is so simple to those who get it, but unintelligible to those who don't.

Rubbish, go and read up on the purpose of the devil's advocate especially with respect to validating a position or arguement.

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

Devil's advocate is a totally respectable and acceptable position.

Anything that that makes people think outside the game is welcome.

I hate the idea of spying personally.  While it may be a case in a real war the safeguard available to "real" fllets is unavalable in a game context.  It is too dame easy.

that being said ways of simulating the effect of "real" spying could be done through other methods.  Some have been mentioned others will likely appear.  However without a post such as Gooks we may have ignored such possibilities used or not.  Anything that supports dialogues of new ideas feasible or not is to be applauded.

While I agree on a lot of things with Lepton regarding this issue. I disapprove of an attitude which prohibits discussion and debate.  Even if Gook really supports the idea of spying, honestly I think he's merely fishing for feedback, so be it.  He is allowed to express thoughts on the matter and has done so with an open attitude about listening to real reasons and arguments, rather than try to slam doors saying this is already widely accepted.  His method opens discussion and creativity, the other embraces a status quo for the sake of the status quo without rational argument or comment.  In my view anything is open for discussion and if a position is unpopular let the responses show it and more importantly show why. 

Gook is my fleetmate and I've always respected his willingness to change his view if confronted with a valid argument, but I have also applauded his actions to require people to present a reasoned argument rather than merely accept something based on an unsubstantaited popular opinion.  It goes to prove that lawyers can actually be productive....

[Holocat]

I hate the idea of spying personally.  While it may be a case in a real war the safeguard available to "real" fllets is unavalable in a game context.  It is too dame easy.

that being said ways of simulating the effect of "real" spying could be done through other methods.  Some have been mentioned others will likely appear.  However without a post such as Gooks we may have ignored such possibilities used or not.  Anything that supports dialogues of new ideas feasible or not is to be applauded.

To flip the coin for a moment, 'real spying,' even in the disasterous method that was seen on previous servers, has been implemented with success in other games.  It is not impossible to create an environment where this works, even while preserving a communal sense.  It isn't impossible.

However, the reaction of this particular community was paranoia and discord.  We can cruise through old fora looking for the origional reasons we had, but it matters little now, as its illegality is more or less codified now.  We can continue to edge back toward the crater that this left behind, oh so long ago, but even now the reaction is, at best, negative.

Even the suggestions to fake spying isn't spying, really.  What is suggested is Scouting.  Which is sort of like spying, but from a significant distance away.

So give not your russian a club for this is a gentleman's war, I suppose.  As it should be.

[IAF Lyrkiller]

I hate the idea of spying personally.  While it may be a case in a real war the safeguard available to "real" fllets is unavalable in a game context.  It is too dame easy.

that being said ways of simulating the effect of "real" spying could be done through other methods.  Some have been mentioned others will likely appear.  However without a post such as Gooks we may have ignored such possibilities used or not.  Anything that supports dialogues of new ideas feasible or not is to be applauded.

To flip the coin for a moment, 'real spying,' even in the disasterous method that was seen on previous servers, has been implemented with success in other games.  It is not impossible to create an environment where this works, even while preserving a communal sense.  It isn't impossible.

However, the reaction of this particular community was paranoia and discord.  We can cruise through old fora looking for the origional reasons we had, but it matters little now, as its illegality is more or less codified now.  We can continue to edge back toward the crater that this left behind, oh so long ago, but even now the reaction is, at best, negative.

Even the suggestions to fake spying isn't spying, really.  What is suggested is Scouting.  Which is sort of like spying, but from a significant distance away.

So give not your russian a club for this is a gentleman's war, I suppose.  As it should be.

It all boils down to one thing Military Intelligence

and that has been around for a long time.