Topic: 7 & 8

[Gook]

7. All parties encouraged to politik and use ruse guerre and anything else to make the peripherals and game build up fun.

8. Spying probably out but is a Rommie trait

Not really "in Game" issues but can enhance the overall experience.

I guess we still do some 7.

8. Is the contentious one, it can cause all sorts of problems, but having said that can be considered racial traits for Rommies and Frogs.

I shall not voice an opinion, but what do the rest think?

[FPF-DieHard]

Spying is cheating.   The players who participate in that should be flamed until they cry for their mother and banned from the game.

[Gook]

Spying is cheating.   The players who participate in that should be flamed until they cry for their mother and banned from the game.

Let's play a little "Devils Advocate" here. Why is spying cheating? Not mentioned in the rule book anywhere? It can be guarded against. It is a normal product of Human conflict.

Nimitz didn't say before Midway, OK we've cracked IJN 34, but can't use it because its cheating, So I'll ignore the fact that Yamamoto has sent Nagumo to take Midway with 4 Carriers and a Battleship fleet. Just intrigued. Yes I know its a game and not "real" war, but we simulate blowing stuff up all the time and "killing" sentient beings, so why not have another "normal" facet of simulated conflict.

I am not saying I'm for or against, I am intrigued as to the reasoning behind the vehemence of the reply.

[FPF-DieHard]

Don't you have ambulances to chase? 

Spying is stricted prohibited in all major campaign since it was first discovered that a few dis-honorable weasels were doing it.

This is a game, not a war.

[Cleaven]

Spying is cheating.   The players who participate in that should be flamed until they cry for their mother and banned from the game.

And just how can you ban them from the game?

[FPF-DieHard]

Spying is cheating.   The players who participate in that should be flamed until they cry for their mother and banned from the game.

And just how can you ban them from the game?

Block their IPs, erase their accounts, unleash Dizzy on them to get medieval.

[Cleaven]

Maybe you misheard. I asked how you could ban them from the game?

[FPF-DieHard]

Maybe you misheard. I asked how you could ban them from the game?

You really can't, you can just block them from a particular campaign.

Can't ban them from the game, but you can make their lives such hell that they'll leave.

[SPQR Renegade]

Please don't re-open the great spying debate. Unless someone can come up with some sanctioned method of "spying" that does not include RL self mis-representation or hacking, let's just move on.

It's just not worth it.

[Cleaven]

I don't even think you can do that. And this is a classic weakness of the rules that the D2 server admins use. They cannot enforce them. Rotating IP's, free e-mail addresses, and the open nature of the D2 server login means that you are left in the role of toothless tiger.  

[el-Karnak]

Maybe you misheard. I asked how you could ban them from the game?

You really can't, you can just block them from a particular campaign.

Can't ban them from the game, but you can make their lives such hell that they'll leave.

Simply refuse to play PvP with them even if it costs you banning time from the hex. If enough players do it then the persona non grata will be shamed from the dynaverse premises.  The whole dyna campaign will simply collapse into chaos because the players refuse to get involved and before you know it the campaign will get pulled.

Social banning is a far more ancient, time-honored and effectively ruthless technique that precedes any technical banning methods by thousands of years.

[FPF-DieHard]

I don't even think you can do that. And this is a classic weakness of the rules that the D2 server admins use. They cannot enforce them. Rotating IP's, free e-mail addresses, and the open nature of the D2 server login means that you are left in the role of toothless tiger.  

You can take the server down.

[Cleaven]

I don't even think you can do that. And this is a classic weakness of the rules that the D2 server admins use. They cannot enforce them. Rotating IP's, free e-mail addresses, and the open nature of the D2 server login means that you are left in the role of toothless tiger.  

You can take the server down.

So you still haven't succeeded in banning a rule breaker, just taken away the rules which may be what they wanted in the first place.

[FPF-DieHard]

Do you have a point other than being annoying?

We could bring in passwords and only give the passwords to people we trust.   If that gets leaked and the a-hole in question comes back, change the password. 

Special daily-rotating downloads could be set up for security as well.  An SCR file could be change daily and then only emailed to those players who are welcome on the server.

Security can be set up.  Fortunately, we have not had to do this as the players we have left are honorable and only break the rules by mistake.

[Cleaven]

Perhaps you've failed to grasp the concept that banning is just a little hard to do?

[FPF-DieHard]

Perhaps you've failed to grasp the concept that banning is just a little hard to do?

No, I am aware that it is hard to do but it is still a doable option.  Hopefully we will not need to do it.

[Gook]

I see a lot of hot air but no reasoning why there should not be spying.

If an individual server admin wants to ban it then fine, there is still the problem of finding who and enforcement.

That still does not answer the question why not?

There is no "rule" in D2 that says no spying, although I'll grant you there has been a convention that we do not do it, but again, why?

[Hexx]

I'd say the convention is we haven't done it because there's no point.
It's a stupid idea for a game that we try and present as opne for everyone.
The point was made that Nimitz used "spyin". Not quite the same thing- the Americans didn't get the Japanese plans by
1)creating a new user account on a forum, saying "Hi I'm new to playing, I'd like to try Fed"
2) Being given access to the forums so the "new" player can learn how to fly and ask questions
3) Looking at the plans.

I'd say spying would be fine for a server if
-the server had a sign up
-only people that everyone knows ere allowed to play on it
-once the server started no on else was allowed to join
-anyone caught hacking a website or db for "espionage" purposes was executed (in real life) to demonstrate the dangers of being caught spying during wartime.

[Gook]

I'd say the convention is we haven't done it because there's no point.
It's a stupid idea for a game that we try and present as opne for everyone.
The point was made that Nimitz used "spyin". Not quite the same thing- the Americans didn't get the Japanese plans by
1)creating a new user account on a forum, saying "Hi I'm new to playing, I'd like to try Fed"
2) Being given access to the forums so the "new" player can learn how to fly and ask questions
3) Looking at the plans.

I'd say spying would be fine for a server if
-the server had a sign up
-only people that everyone knows ere allowed to play on it
-once the server started no on else was allowed to join
-anyone caught hacking a website or db for "espionage" purposes was executed (in real life) to demonstrate the dangers of being caught spying during wartime.

Sound reasoning.

Just the RP side of things would seem to imply certain traits on certain races, but you have given concrete reasoning, rather than gut reaction. Thank you.

[Mog]

I see a lot of hot air but no reasoning why there should not be spying.

If an individual server admin wants to ban it then fine, there is still the problem of finding who and enforcement.

That still does not answer the question why not?

There is no "rule" in D2 that says no spying, although I'll grant you there has been a convention that we do not do it, but again, why?

How about because it creates a bucketload of resentment between players when the spies are caught?