Topic: Fleet Control in OP

[Bonk]

What are your favorite tricks to control a fleet in OP?

Here is my basic  approach to fleets in OP:

1) Build them according to SFB CnC, it usually works out for the best anyway.
2) Pick a formation for the situation and stick with it (we know that control is unreliable - but see number 11 for clarification).
2a) I tend to go with the line astern  formation as a set  it and forget it kind of thing - especially in terrain.
3) Do not change speed and direction too quickly or too often, you'll confuse the simple minded  AI.
3a) Do not go to fast, pick speeds, accelerations and decelerations and rates of turn that all of the ships in your fleet are capable of (also to give the slow AI a chance to clue in...). Excess  speed is the most common cause of AI falling from formation, keep it slow and calculated and they will stay close.
4) Stay in the flagship or carrier, don't jump around command if you can avoid it, this also confuses the simple AI.
5) Never let the AI control a carrier while it has fighters/PFs.
6) Strip your AI of shuttles to prevent their suicidal tendency to weasel at the drop of a hat.
7) Always set your AI ships to fire on your target  and usually only on your command (they pick the worst times if left on their own).
8 ) Only set your AI ships to overload rarely, when you are sure the whole fleet will be going slow enough for 2 or 3 turns.
9) The AI 's respond well to well timed capture and tractor commands - use them.
9a) Abuse captured ships...  don't try to keep them in formation as they are usually damaged, leave em behind, though ocassionally I have recycled marines from one captured ship to capture another.
10) Stay away from planets  and map edges - AI are very scared of them, not quite as scared of asteroids.
10a) Mines are the enemy of  your formation as the AI seem to fear them most, bear  this in mind, and use it.  (I've used drones or even my own ship to clear mines to maintain formation)
11) Be aware that the fleet formation control is relative to the first ship in the list, not the ship you are in, this can be confusing sometimes. 

I may think of more to add later, feel free to add your  own. 

[FPF-DieHard]

12).  Fly cheap escorts.   They die a lot.

[Mog]

"3a) Do not go to fast, pick speeds, accelerations and decelerations and rates of turn that all of the ships in your fleet are capable of (also to give the slow AI a chance to clue in...). Excess  speed is the most common cause of AI falling from formation, keep it slow and calculated and they will stay close.
"

This is where I detest the fleet control system. You've stripped the other ships of their shuttles and are travelling slowly with no sudden turns. Makes you plasma bait. That might be ok for your Gorn PFT squadron, but what about Lyrans? They're meant to be going fast, nipping in for quick swipes when the opportunity presents itself.

Not to mention, in D2, with the disengagement rule in effect, having multiple ships in play either means players trying to group together (with the flaky drafting system) to combat them, or they fly multiple ships themselves.

[Bonk]

12).  Fly cheap escorts.   They die a lot.

See this post:
http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php/topic,163344381.msg1122413413.html#msg1122413413

[Bonk]

This is where I detest the fleet control system. You've stripped the other ships of their shuttles and are travelling slowly with no sudden turns. Makes you plasma bait. That might be ok for your Gorn PFT squadron, but what about Lyrans? They're meant to be going fast, nipping in for quick swipes when the opportunity presents itself.

Not to mention, in D2, with the disengagement rule in effect, having multiple ships in play either means players trying to group together (with the flaky drafting system) to combat them, or they fly multiple ships themselves.

Fly two ships and tractor your AI.

The disengagement rule stinks if you ask me, the situation you describe is no different than a light cruiser vs a CVA, the only difference being is that currently I'd need to fly ~20 hours a day for about a week to be able to compete... fleets make it much fairer for the non-nutter.

So it is better that I am forced to devote my life to amassing enough PP to compete? That is a better solution? It doesn't ignore a huge portion of the game?

[FPF-DieHard]

This is where I detest the fleet control system. You've stripped the other ships of their shuttles and are travelling slowly with no sudden turns. Makes you plasma bait. That might be ok for your Gorn PFT squadron, but what about Lyrans? They're meant to be going fast, nipping in for quick swipes when the opportunity presents itself.

Not to mention, in D2, with the disengagement rule in effect, having multiple ships in play either means players trying to group together (with the flaky drafting system) to combat them, or they fly multiple ships themselves.

Fly two ships and tractor your AI.

The disengagement rule stinks if you ask me, the situation you describe is no different than a light cruiser vs a CVA, the only difference being is that currently I'd need to fly ~20 hours a day for about a week to be able to compete... fleets make it much fairer for the non-nutter.

So it is better that I am forced to devote my life to amassing enough PP to compete? That is a better solution? It doesn't ignore a huge portion of the game?

But OOB does help the casual.   Limit the "big iron" like J'inn is doing on GW so that 90% of the players are in smaller ships (yeah, I know a CCH is not a small ship, but a "CC-Fest" is better than a BCH-fest IMHO).   The need to be in a large ship to compete is eased greatly.

[Bonk]

But OOB does help the casual.   Limit the "big iron" like J'inn is doing on GW so that 90% of the players are in smaller ships (yeah, I know a CCH is not a small ship, but a "CC-Fest" is better than a BCH-fest IMHO).   The need to be in a large ship to compete is eased greatly.

True, the "Slot" concept helped a lot too... I just don't think that prices should be the reason we don't fly fleets and miss out on a large part of the game (IMO)... but this thread was for fleet control tips, I've led us off topic a bit here. I was curious if anyone else had some good fleet control tricks I haven't thought of or discovered.

[airBiscuit]

13.  Be careful dropping mines whilst in tight formation, especially if line-astern or echelon formation. 

Gave my friendly DD+ a nasty wakeup call last night by that lapse in judgement.

[Mog]

Yes, off topic, but my main point is that multiple ships are better for some races, but not all, thus creating an imbalance.

[Bonk]

That may be so, but I'm not so sure myself. I see it rather like a card game when playing multiplayer hidden race SFC, its fun. Usually the best battles occur when traditional enemies are the combatants. (Hydran vs Lyran, Gorn vs Rom, Fed vs Klingon.. etc...) I think that traditional map layouts will therefore make the best D2 campaigns as well. This is part of why the GW series continues to do well. I admit I really just throw the maps together for my servers as I'm preoccupied with the technical. I think I'll work with that in mind next time a make a map...

As long as traditional map boundaries are observed, the variation of fleet combinations available, can make for a balanced campaign that allows fleets. If ship prices are reasonable and some still restricted the game will become more complex in the matchups possible and more about the territory and strategies possible, than amassing pp by running huge numbers of missions.

Pretty much it boils down to: I like fleets, and would like to see a fleet friendly server that works.

My main point is fleets are fun! 

[KBF-Crim]

Inverse CNC restrictions based on Rank....

This allows casual players to fly what they want and places curbs on the nutters...

We have all these cools toys to play, with but they arent allowed off the shelf...

If stuff keeps getting "removed" for the sake of balance ,then the only thing left to fly will be tourney ships....and someone will STILL cry about balance....

Need a counter for droner fleets?

Escorts

Need a counter to carrier fleets? 

Escorts

Need a counter to escorts?

PF tenders

need a counter to PF tenders?

Droner fleets...

And the beat goes on....

One man's cheese is another mans only means of survival


The list of what you CANT fly is getting almost as long as the list of stuff you CAN fly...and thats fupped duck

[Cleaven]

Use of fleets: I am terrible at it. Too hard to get the AI ships to fire effectively. Maybe in the late game when the Romulans get PF tenders it's worth while, but until then there is no way you'll get me into a fleet. It's been a while since I did the 3xWE thing but that was a receipe for very long missions.

My alternate race is Lyran, and that is just as bad. Due to the speed problems you will never catch me spending PP on a Lyran fleet either.

So that fixes the question of how to control a fleet.

Of course just because I can't use fleets doesn't mean anybody with drones should be prevented from using them. Drone fleets should be allowed because they are so effective and easy to control, whereas non-drone users should go and do something else.

[FVA_C_ Blade_ XC]

Inverse CNC restrictions based on Rank....

This allows casual players to fly what they want and places curbs on the nutters...

We have all these cools toys to play, with but they arent allowed off the shelf...

If stuff keeps getting "removed" for the sake of balance ,then the only thing left to fly will be tourney ships....and someone will STILL cry about balance....

Need a counter for droner fleets?

Escorts

Need a counter to carrier fleets? 

Escorts

Need a counter to escorts?

PF tenders

need a counter to PF tenders?

Droner fleets...

And the beat goes on....

One man's cheese is another mans only means of survival


The list of what you CANT fly is getting almost as long as the list of stuff you CAN fly...and thats fupped duck

What da ridgehead said.

I also agree with Moggy ISC is one of the races ment to be inna fleet.

[KBF-Crim]

Here's an odd Idea...

Pilot ratings....

Earn a high rating....NO CHEESE FOR YOU!!!!

This could be a combination of your DV PP totals/ missions flown and your PvP tally...

Aces get no cheese...

Casuals and average players....get a little nacho sauce...

NooBs get to fly stinky cheese....

*Crim ducks as the Anti aircraft guns are locked and loaded*

[Bonk]

Interesting idea Crim, but sounds like a lot of work to maintain and enforce.

Use of fleets: I am terrible at it. Too hard to get the AI ships to fire effectively. Maybe in the late game when the Romulans get PF tenders it's worth while, but until then there is no way you'll get me into a fleet. It's been a while since I did the 3xWE thing but that was a receipe for very long missions.

My alternate race is Lyran, and that is just as bad. Due to the speed problems you will never catch me spending PP on a Lyran fleet either.

So that fixes the question of how to control a fleet.

Of course just because I can't use fleets doesn't mean anybody with drones should be prevented from using them. Drone fleets should be allowed because they are so effective and easy to control, whereas non-drone users should go and do something else.

Yes, drone fleets are easier to fly. Your sarcasm does not go unappreciated. Don't forget I'm also in favour of strict CnC. Drones don't do so well against a well constructed, human piloted fleet however. A well used escort can completely negate drones altogether. I enjoy flying plasma fleets more. I've even flown Lyran fleets successfully. A good hellbore fleet can be a blast! ...and 12 proxies... wheeee! C7 and 2x D5 hull fleets can be quite nice too, dizzies everywhere...

"you will never catch me spending PP on a..." <-- There we go again, the game should not be about how much PP you can amass and how much things cost... sounds like Monopoly to me.

Practice makes perfect!

[Cleaven]

"you will never catch me spending PP on a..." <-- There we go again, the game should not be about how much PP you can amass and how much things cost... sounds like Monopoly to me.

Practice makes perfect!

The game shouldn't be, but the currency of getting into a better ship, getting spares, mines, marines etc is PP. Now if you think you can get along in the game without PP, by loosing an escort every second or third mission, then you are going to get yourself into a PP negative situation. at least that is what happens to me.

So by all means go and use your fleets, but just don't expect me to, and please don't tell me that I need to get a fleet to deal with an opponent. It's not going to happen because they are too slow and too expensive.

[FPF-DieHard]

...and 12 proxies...

Maybe it the AI weren't so fricking stupid and actually would match EW.  I've tried this, doesn't work.  You can get the AI morons to manuver and get a firing solution but they don't match EW.

[FPF-DieHard]

These are my work-in-progress CnC rules.   Figure i'll throw them out here for feedback.

EDIT:   Fighter CnC is not done yet and this assumes all races have both fighters, PFs, and casual tenders.

CnC Rules:

Hull Size:

For the purpose of CnC/OOB classification, below are ship size classes:

BB (2 Move Cost)
DN/CVA (1.5 Move Cost)
BCH/CA/NCA (1 Move Cost)
CL, HDW (K-D6 variants)
DD/DW
FF


All Bombardment Ships, Fast Cruisers, and HDWs must be flown solo.

Command Cruisers:

Pilots may fly 2 ships once they reach Captain Rank. The first ships must be a command cruiser and the second ship is a vanilla-line ships 1 Hull Class smaller.
EXAMPLE: F-CC+ and F-NCL+ is a legal combination.

Pilots may fly 2 ships at Commodore rank. The first ships must be a Command Cruiser and the other 2 ships must be a line ship of the same Hull Class or smaller. Second ship cannot be larger than a CA/NCA
EXAMPLE: K-C7, K-D5W and F-CLC, F-NCL+ are legal combos.

True Carriers and Tenders:

True Carriers and PF Tenders may be flown solo at Captain Rank.

At Commodore Rank, pilot may fly one ESCORT ship with the carrier/tender provided it is 2 Hull Class sizes smaller than the Carrier.
EXAMPLE: F-NCV, F-DWA, and K-C7V, K-FWE are legal combinations.

Only ESCORTS may escort a carrier/tender.


PF CnC:

Full Tenders: Full Tenders are ships with 4 PFs. They are allowed the following:
1 PF Leader (May be a Leader Variant)
1 Variant PF
2 Standard PFs

Below are examples of legal flotillas:
G-PFDL, G-PFD, G-PF+, G-PF+
K-G1DL, KG1D, K-G1, K-G1

Casual Tenders: Casual Tenders have 2 PFs. Casual tenders are limited to standard PFs.
EXAMPLE: K-C7F + K-G1(x2), L-CWLF + L-PF+ (x2)

[FPF-DieHard]

Bump.   3 days and no comments?

[Bonk]

Me thoughts:

All Bombardment Ships, Fast Cruisers, and HDWs must be flown solo.

Don't like that so much as max of one per fleet.

I like the graduated access to fleets with rank but without the requirement for a CC (e.g. an FFL, FF combo should be legal)

No solo carriers/PFTs... any escort legal

PF CnC looks good.

[FPF-DieHard]

I like the graduated access to fleets with rank but without the requirement for a CC (e.g. an FFL, FF combo should be legal)

Doh!   Should re-word that to "Command ship" and not "Command Cruiser."

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

I will admit I was a little pied off at how Taldren wrecked the old fleet control 14 Pt East had set up.  "Formations" are marginally useful in SFC.  The "Line Ahead" is the most pravelent I saw online followed by the "Line abreast" formation used by Feds to form a firing line.  Back in SFC1 there was a "come to lead ship" command you could use to rope in your errant ships.  But i havent found anything like that in this fleet control.  I lobbied for Taldren to put the command in throughout SFC2 and SFC OP but they never did.

One way I found to stop WW production is to jump from ship to ship in the very beginning and "cancel" the ww currently being made.  That has seemed to work for me. (or it used to work maybe that has changed) (they don't seem to make another one right away).   

The problem with stripping shuttle is when you fly droners that like to use SCATTERPACKS.  The AI keeps making them until either the drones or the shuttle are gone.  if you strip all the shuttle you won't have any scatterpacks.

Another thing I need to find out (I used to know) was what settings are "held" by the Ai and what settings are not.  I still think overloads are held by the AI if you set them by jumping to the AI ship.  It will hold overloads until you jump back and change it...good for defensive plasma when you need it.  I don't think the Overload button (if it is still there) ever worked on the fleet control panel.  I also want tp experiment with X ships since the AI never overloads X phasers.

There used to be a command that you could use to "jump" into a PF.  I forgot what it was...(shift right click???).  Something like that.  God I hope they didn't take that out or maybe the command has been forgotten.

...anyway once you got command of the PF you could set your tractor on and tractor a capital ship just long enough for your capital ship to slam it with drones or plasma.  Also lots of players like to run from PFs and then pick em off with phasers.  You could sometimes grab the runner and "dead stop"...slowing him down so the others PFs could catch it and slam it with plasma or whatever.

It was also pretty cool flying a PF.  They accelerate like an SPZ and turn on a dime.  The only problkem is if your capital ship gets whacked the thing blows up.   That was about as stupid a thing as it gets.

Well that what I remember.  It's kind of hard to get people to play fleets online so most of the time it's against the AI.  But fleet battles online vs another player can be a lot of fun even wioth the lousy fleet control we have.

[KBFLordKrueg]

Inverse CNC restrictions based on Rank....

This allows casual players to fly what they want and places curbs on the nutters...

We have all these cools toys to play, with but they arent allowed off the shelf...

If stuff keeps getting "removed" for the sake of balance ,then the only thing left to fly will be tourney ships....and someone will STILL cry about balance....

Need a counter for droner fleets?

Escorts

Need a counter to carrier fleets? 

Escorts

Need a counter to escorts?

PF tenders

need a counter to PF tenders?

Droner fleets...

And the beat goes on....

One man's cheese is another mans only means of survival


The list of what you CANT fly is getting almost as long as the list of stuff you CAN fly...and thats fupped duck

I am am forced to agree with my esteemed college.
Especially with the current races in play and the presence of the new P/F abilities.

[Commander Maxillius]

Here's an odd Idea...

Pilot ratings....

Earn a high rating....NO CHEESE FOR YOU!!!!

This could be a combination of your DV PP totals/ missions flown and your PvP tally...

Aces get no cheese...

Casuals and average players....get a little nacho sauce...

NooBs get to fly stinky cheese....

*Crim ducks as the Anti aircraft guns are locked and loaded*

I like this idea!  Kroma: G-CC    Maxillius: I-CVLS    Hexx: Dr. Strangelove <snicker>

[Bonk]

Another thing I need to find out (I used to know) was what settings are "held" by the Ai and what settings are not.  I still think overloads are held by the AI if you set them by jumping to the AI ship.  It will hold overloads until you jump back and change it...good for defensive plasma when you need it.  I don't think the Overload button (if it is still there) ever worked on the fleet control panel.  I also want tp experiment with X ships since the AI never overloads X phasers.

There used to be a command that you could use to "jump" into a PF.  I forgot what it was...(shift right click???).  Something like that.  God I hope they didn't take that out or maybe the command has been forgotten.

I find the AI will hold settings to capture and tractor, I think I have gotten them to stick to "special" or overloaded weapons modes using the fleet control too, but they don't manage it well, being AI... (set to fire only on your command and they do better)

re: shuttle stripping - I find a weaseling/dead ship is less useful than one without scatterpacks. I can't be bothered to hop around causing my command ship to do dumb AI type things...

re: PF control - to control a PF select it as the target and press "Control-Backspace", use the same technique to return to the carrier or other PFs.

Thanks for the thoughts Rondo. 

[Bonk]

Inverse CNC restrictions based on Rank....

This allows casual players to fly what they want and places curbs on the nutters...

We have all these cools toys to play, with but they arent allowed off the shelf...

If stuff keeps getting "removed" for the sake of balance ,then the only thing left to fly will be tourney ships....and someone will STILL cry about balance....

Need a counter for droner fleets?

Escorts

Need a counter to carrier fleets? 

Escorts

Need a counter to escorts?

PF tenders

need a counter to PF tenders?

Droner fleets...

And the beat goes on....

One man's cheese is another mans only means of survival


The list of what you CANT fly is getting almost as long as the list of stuff you CAN fly...and thats fupped duck

I am am forced to agree with my esteemed college.
Especially with the current races in play and the presence of the new P/F abilities.

I also agree with this thinking.
"Inverse CNC restrictions based on Rank...." <-- good thought, counter-intuitive, but makes sense.

[KBF-Crim]

Well....if your looking for counter-intuitive thinking...I'm your Klink ...everyone tells me I do things ass backwards...

Who knew it would pay off some day...

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

Ya,

the heck with that order of battle stuff. 

The best combo for Gorns I've come up with is One BB with plasma D PFs and two light cruiser adv warships.  The ADV ships are very hardy and fast. and I've won up to 1.82 in COOP Ace...so far.  Depends on the setting really.

[KBF-Crim]

LOL...well...I'm NOT suggesting to throw out OOB....OR CnC....just to reverse the effects...

As it is right now....and most servers....nutters are rewarded for nutting....

IE...the more you play...the faster you amass PP...and gain rank....and loosen restrictions on what you can fly....

So you not only out gun everyone sooner....you can also easily replace everything sooner...(simply because you have the cash...)

My senario evens the playing field just a bit by freeing up what you can fly at low rank....by the time you amass enough PP to gain rank (and start buying HEAVY iron)....THAT's when Cnc restrictions start kicking in...

I'm also NOT saying that anyone should be able to run 3 "Drone frigate" fleet's....only that low ranks should be able to field a three CnC/OOB legal fleet.....as i point out...by the time you get enough cash to by seriously deadly ships.....you wont be able to fly three ships fleets be cause you'll be high enough rank to face restrictions...

as to the other idea....

Placing a VC point or two on someones head when they gain "high rank"...simulates the persons value as a nutter and an asset in themselves...

After all...shouldnt killing the high officers of your enemy be some advantage on the bettle field?

I'm not suggesting punishment of people who play more...only looking to give the people who play less a leg up when they do play...so it doesnt seem so futile....

[Rod ONeal]

I like the extra VC for killing high profile targets. If someone is a "true" warrior you'd think that they'd relish having a bounty on their heads. Kinda like legendary captain status, in reverse.

[KBF-Crim]

"you VC now!...MAO!...MAO!"