Topic: Who should have the right of way?

[Gambler]

U.S. carrier collides with boat

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The aircraft carrier USS John F. Kennedy has collided with an unidentified dhow while on patrol in the Arabian Gulf, the U.S. Navy said.

No survivors from the dhow, a small traditional vessel, were found after Thursday night's incident. All of the Kennedy's crew and aircraft were accounted for.

The U.S. Navy was conducting an investigation into the incident.

The dhow sank immediately on collision. Alhough the Kennedy and a British warship, HMS Somerset, launched a search-and-rescue mission, no survivors were found.

It was unclear how many crew were on board the dhow, but the small vessels, used mainly for transport and fishing, usually carry up to 15 people.

"There is every reason to believe the collision was an accident, but there are force protection implications because warships make every effort to stay away from unknown small boats which could pose a terrorist threat," a Navy spokesman said.

Concern about small boats near warships has grown since October 2000, when suicide attackers detonated explosives on a small boat they brought alongside the USS Cole destroyer as it refueled in the Yemeni port of Aden. Seventeen U.S. sailors were killed in the attack.

I can imagine the ruckus on the bridge when they realized what was happening.  Talk about a nightmare.  It's terrible that there were people killed on the dhow. 

[Khalee]

Arn't small boats hard to pick up on radar anyway?, and a carrier can't turn on a dime to get out of the way either if they only spot one at the last moment. I lean toward it was a unfortunate accedent.

[Sirgod]

It's been awhile, But I always thought Military Vessels had the Right away on open seas, and In harbor.  I think that smaller Vessels ae to Pass To Port, but It's been a few years since I've read up on sailing.

Stephen

[Strafer]

To my knowledge, the class of ship that has the highest RoW is a sailboat. When your propulsion is wherever the wind takes you sometimes you have no choice but to head in a straight line. Self propelled crafts must avoid you ( not that it's an excuse to be a jerk about it ).

[Gambler]

At the same time, as Khalee said.  Given the turn radius and stopping distance on an aircraft carrier I would hope that the smaller ship would yield.

[Iceman]

Maybe Ferrett could offer some information?

[Bonk]

I was also under the impression that a sailboat always has the right of way over powered ships, regardless of size or purpose. Still, how could you miss an oncoming carrier! The crew of the dhow must have been asleep with nobody on watch. Perhaps the dhow had no lights?

[Byzantine]

And still the question - what if that little sucker had been packed to the gills with explosives?  A carrier for gosh sakes!?  The highest priority target out there and the navy lets an 'unknown' get so close that it gets run over!  I gotta think there is some @ss chewing going on right now that has nothing to do with unfortunate drowned civilians.

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

And still the question - what if that little sucker had been packed to the gills with explosives?  A carrier for gosh sakes!?  The highest priority target out there and the navy lets an 'unknown' get so close that it gets run over!  I gotta think there is some @ss chewing going on right now that has nothing to do with unfortunate drowned civilians.

Indeed, but most of you are correct.

he International Navigation Rules do not confer upon any vessel the "right of way". However, certain vessels "in sight of each other" are responsible "to keep out of the way" of others. Usually, power-driven vessels are to keep out of the way of a vessel not under command or restricted in her ability to maneuver, sailing vessels or a vessel engaged in fishing.  However, some exceptions exist when they themselves are not in command or restricted in her ability to maneuver (Rule 18), overtaking another vessel (Rule 13), are navigating a "narrow channel or fairway" (Rule 9), and other less explicit circumstances.

Navigation Rules should be regarded as a "code of conduct" and not a "bill of rights".  They do not bestow rights or privileges, but impose the duty to either "give-way" or "stand-on", dependent on the circumstances.  What is important is not so much what things are (i.e. sailing vessel, operational, etc.) but how to avoid collisions (e.g. although under sail yet able to be propelled by machinery, obtaining an early warning by radar, etc).  Understand, the Rules are in place to prevent collisions NOT to define nautical terms or to be subjected to strict interpretation.

Ie the more maneuverable ship (NOT THE CVA) is responsible for avoiding a collision.

[Byzantine]

One other thing to keep in mind: The article says the event happened at night.  Was the dhow even underway?  If not, some of those rules that Bearslayer just posted for 'not in command or restricted ability to maneuver' may be most appropriate to the discussion.  And another possibility: was it run over from behind?  An overtaking situation.

[The Postman]

Somehow I bet the dhow was not showing any lights. That would have an impact on the investigation. If that turns out to be true, only an eyeball search with night vision would have seen it.
The JFK is home ported in Mayport FL.

[J. Carney]

Who has the right of way?

Seriously, I'd vote for the 100,000 dwt, 1/5th mile long, moving island full of airplanes!

That dhow was most likely not lit up properly and could definately stop quicker even if it couldn't nessecarily turn out of the way.

They, like as not, just didn't care. They tried to race the train and got caught at the crossing.

[TheJudge]

In maritime circumstances...it is the responsibility of each vessel to avoid collisions. The OOD and Captain are responsible to ensure that their vessel operates in a manner that does not contribute unnecessarily to the likelihood of any collision.  Larger vessels are to be granted wider berth, passed on the port side whenever possible, and generally allowed passage due to their lesser manueverability.  Sailboats and unpowered/manned craft are to be given the widest berth possible in all circumstances.

If this collision was at night, there are several things to consider:

1)  In all likelihood the USS Kennedy was under 'darken ship' and running without running lights unless it was conducting air operations.  Cruisers and destroyers in the squadron were likely doing the same. 

2)  Radar does not always pick up small wooden vessels, especially in rougher seas.  The Iranians know this and run circles around our warships in their little wooden boats.  In the 1980's these boats escaped the modern 5" mounts that depend on radar locks to fire at targets, necessitating the deployment of the 25mm bushmaster cannons on all ships entering the gulf for defense against this type of vessel.

3)  The dhow, if it was running without lights was likely a smuggler or terrorist boat (very common for both in the Gulf) and had VERY VERY bad luck. 

Hopefully no one on the Kennedy hurt their career with this incident...

[DAnahos_XC]

Oops. Didn't see that this was already posted. D'oh  I'll delete my thread.

[Ferretlxix_XC]

Judge and Bear are correct but, it depends on the situation on where I heard no further fats from the news snipet.  Was the Dhow sailing (some still do) or was it using it's powerplant (in which most are)?  Being this happened at night, was the dow using it's running lights?  Now for the JFK, was the lookouts properly scanning thier sectors or was somebody asleep? Was the OOD and conning officer cecking actively for the boats?  Did the Operation Specailist catch anything on thier radars?  As hard as they are to detect, they still can be found.  On the Arilegh Burks with our SPY 1D arrays we were able to pick them up along with any wave crests out there but it was tough to track them as they disappeared and reappeared as they dipped along the waves.

As for the rules of the road, if they were sailing the carrier is supposed to give way and provide it a wide berth.
If the dhow was operating under powered conditions the they are both to keep out of each others way (usually if seen, communications on the radio is made and then either speed or course is altered).

This is mainly coming from what I seen as a young Deck Seaman who stood the Boatswains Mate of the Watch (eventhough I got smart and cross rated to an IC).
for the rules and such check out the Coast Gaurd website.

If the conditions are still as I remeber them, the rules aren't really regarded allot but the dhow pilots and that's where the Navy constantly have to keep a close eye on traffic.  When I was on the USS Ramage and Russell, they where all over the place and blatantly crossed paths of our ships on several occasions.  I even took some nice photographs while ont the Intellegence Gathering Team with some great detail at minimum zoom from a highly powered zoom lens.   The boats on top of that are difficult to track on radar (unless your using a phased array system) but, it came clear to why it was when we used a dhow for target practice and found out our 25mm was shredding apart a foam core vessel. LOL!

[TheJudge]

Ah, an IC guy...well...I'll be careful of my jokes regarding "Hey, can you hear me?"

The 25 mm, when it fires, is a sweet cannon.  The laser sight works very well, and the buck rogers-style control sticks feel great in the hands when you shoot them.  The biggest problem is the jamming of the chain feeders, but I think they overcame that in 93/94.

I've been looking for pictures of the USS Kincaid after she collided with an oil freighter in the Malacca straits, but cannot find them.  She was heavily damaged, lost three crewmembers, and the collision was due to fog, etc. 

Collisions at sea are nasty things, always.

[IndyShark]

I believe the aircraft carrier has the right of way.....

During a trip to Mexico I was riding in a car that was almost forced off a cliff by an 18 wheel truck. As we looked at the edge of the cliff, the driver said that he had the right of way! I hit him on the shoulder and said that I don't care WHAT to road signs say, 18 wheel semis ALWAYS have the right of way.

If they hit you and hear a thud and keep driving, it's time to yeild...

[Gambler]

That is a very valid point IndyShark.

[762_XC]

I was also under the impression that a sailboat always has the right of way over powered ships, regardless of size or purpose.

That is not correct. One thing I am sure of is that sailboats must yield to a barge or a passenger ferry. I would have to imagine a 95,000 ton aircraft carrier would get right of way as well.

[drb]

bearslayer wrote,

Ie the more maneuverable ship (NOT THE CVA) is responsible for avoiding a collision.

 Here was a situation that was presented to me when I had a job in the environment, please post how you think this situation should be resolved.

  Suppy vessel along side two frigates, refueling in process, on an intercept course with a large fishing ship, with all its lines/nets out. Who should get out of who's way?

Take care

drb

[Gambler]

Ouch, tough one.

Given the fact that we have 3 ships connected together with flamable liquids being traded between them.

I think in this case the fishing trawler needs to move.

[Just plain old Punisher]

Hey we really forget the obvious. 70,000 tons of warship don't give a ding dong diddly F if you have the right-of-way. You either get your ass out of the way, or experiance the worlds first steel enema.

[Byzantine]

I agree with Punisher.  Rules are for wussies.  I think when we all get on the highway we should just forget the rules.  If we get run over by a semi, well, tough sh!t.  And pedestrians?  F##k 'em!  Right Punisher?  Might makes right!

[Capt_Bearslayer_XC]

bearslayer wrote,

Ie the more maneuverable ship (NOT THE CVA) is responsible for avoiding a collision.

 Here was a situation that was presented to me when I had a job in the environment, please post how you think this situation should be resolved.

  Suppy vessel along side two frigates, refueling in process, on an intercept course with a large fishing ship, with all its lines/nets out. Who should get out of who's way?

Take care

drb

I suppose that depends on distance in relations to notification that the trawler is in the way.

Is any manuveuring is allowed when the ships are hooked up like that?

If so, given enough time, they could move out of the way of the trawler. 

If not, then Gambler is right.  The trawler needs to kick it into high gear.

[Just plain old Punisher]

I agree with Punisher.  Rules are for wussies.  I think when we all get on the highway we should just forget the rules.  If we get run over by a semi, well, tough sh!t.  And pedestrians?  F##k 'em!  Right Punisher?  Might makes right!

Umm... no, I was attempting to make a joke. Guess it failed.

When you have thousands of tons of warship bearing down on you, my first thought isn't "Hey that's against the rules!" --- I try to turn to avoid it, or if there isnt enough time, a fecal based explicitive.

[Gambler]

Umm... no, I was attempting to make a joke. Guess it failed.

When you have thousands of tons of warship bearing down on you, my first thought isn't "Hey that's against the rules!" --- I try to turn to avoid it, or if there isnt enough time, a fecal based explicitive.

Most likely followed by the actual action related to the expletive.

[Byzantine]

I agree with Punisher.  Rules are for wussies.  I think when we all get on the highway we should just forget the rules.  If we get run over by a semi, well, tough sh!t.  And pedestrians?  F##k 'em!  Right Punisher?  Might makes right!

Umm... no, I was attempting to make a joke. Guess it failed.

When you have thousands of tons of warship bearing down on you, my first thought isn't "Hey that's against the rules!" --- I try to turn to avoid it, or if there isnt enough time, a fecal based explicitive.

Sorry Punisher.  I was being cranky.  This whole topic has been answers to two separate questions.  'Right of way' is usually a legal question with some form of answer based in law.  I saw some discussion of that.  And I saw a whole bunch of people dogpiling on the other question - prudent.  It sure as he!! is not prudent to get in the way of something that is going to squash you like a bug.  But that is my point - there may be two separate answers here.  The people who wanted to just dump any legal consideration overboard were getting on my nerves a bit.  Driving in front of a CV: smart no, legal maybe.

[Just plain old Punisher]

Understood. I figured you were a little cranky and didn't take the comment personally.

But since when is the world full of smart people;)