Topic: The Curse raises its ugly little head.... (Read 3227 times)

Sandman3D · « **on:** July 19, 2004, 12:45:43 pm »

Any of you old Taldrenites recognize the direction that we are starting to fall into? All the problems about PERMISSIONs is what drove away some of our best modelers. All the bickering and name calling is worthless and accomplishes nothing. All it does is alienate the honest bashes and modders...the ones who don't ask are sitting back and laughing their a$$e$ off. This stuff will continue until someone comes up with a way to make a .mod file write protected or conversion protected. Until then, just chill. You don't have to get upset over it...hell, feel flattered that someone like your stuff enough to go to the trouble to steal it. Yes I like to be acknowledged, but as I'm not an expert or anything, I don't sweat it. Once you start getting upset over this stuff, your hobby is no longer fun.

IN OTHER WORDS...CALM DOWN AND DON'T SWEAT IT!!!!!

Core · « **Reply #1 on:** July 19, 2004, 01:20:09 pm »

well said

Rat Boy · « **Reply #2 on:** July 19, 2004, 01:34:03 pm »

I thought for a second someone got hurt trying to do another Melak.

Core · « **Reply #3 on:** July 19, 2004, 01:45:03 pm »

well that could happen again how knows and this subject is without heart

Dolphoenix · « **Reply #4 on:** July 19, 2004, 01:48:58 pm »

I have a question for the community.

All of our ships are currently iin zip format.

What are thoughts on these zip files being password protected, and (lord help me on this one) people having to email asking for the password, or have to read an online agreement before being able to download or in order to get the password..?

Rat Boy · « **Reply #5 on:** July 19, 2004, 01:59:20 pm »

There should be like a Scarlet Letter or something we can brand thieves with. If you make them enough of a pariah in the community, then they'll slither back under the rock they crawled out of.

How does this look for a mark?

T

Dolphoenix · « **Reply #6 on:** July 19, 2004, 02:20:08 pm »

Nothing has been stolen that I know of at this time. Although it is being implied that he intends to do just that. I'm serious, I'd like ideas on ways to distribute models to make sure this sort of nonsense doesn't happen

Rat Boy · « **Reply #7 on:** July 19, 2004, 02:24:25 pm »

Even if you password lock the zip file or put in a licensing agreement, some cheat's just going to lie to get permission. I think there should be a new community standard where every mod put up for public consumption should have a Certificat of Authenticity, a read-only file included in the zip that proves that the mod is genuinely from the modder. If it isn't or if it could be proven that the CoA has been forged, that person should be universally banned from all forums, tournaments, etc.

TheStressPuppy · « **Reply #8 on:** July 19, 2004, 02:44:59 pm »

We (those who are veterans of the taldren flame wars) have all been thru this before. I never understood why people bring themselves to this level, but i guess its the same reason as bill clinton...because they can. Ive seen MANY good veteran modders dissapear. Because of this and I was very reluctent to go back to SFC modding because of situations like this. I had high hopes for Trekmods sfc section, but here we go again.

I do appologise to the good members of SFC modding, and hope we can find some way to end this nonsense.

F9thRyker · « **Reply #9 on:** July 19, 2004, 02:53:06 pm »

Quote from: Sandman3D on July 19, 2004, 12:45:43 pm

Any of you old Taldrenites recognize the direction that we are starting to fall into? All the problems about PERMISSIONs is what drove away some of our best modelers. All the bickering and name calling is worthless and accomplishes nothing. All it does is alienate the honest bashes and modders...the ones who don't ask are sitting back and laughing their a$$e$ off. This stuff will continue until someone comes up with a way to make a .mod file write protected or conversion protected. Until then, just chill. You don't have to get upset over it...hell, feel flattered that someone like your stuff enough to go to the trouble to steal it. Yes I like to be acknowledged, but as I'm not an expert or anything, I don't sweat it. Once you start getting upset over this stuff, your hobby is no longer fun.

IN OTHER WORDS...CALM DOWN AND DON'T SWEAT IT!!!!!

Well said Sandman... Well said.

NannerSlug · « **Reply #10 on:** July 19, 2004, 02:59:21 pm »

well.. my suggestion is that us, the modders, be more responsible in asking for permissions.

you are right sandman.

the modelers might want to make some sort of list on their sites of mods that have permission to use their works *if* they feel compelled to lock down models. this way people could see who had permission to use their stuff.

F9thRyker · « **Reply #11 on:** July 19, 2004, 03:01:23 pm »

For those who want to keep their models locked down, a 'permissions list' isnt a bad idea...

Good call Nanner

The Pelican · « **Reply #12 on:** July 19, 2004, 03:06:47 pm »

There's no 100% guaranteed way to do it really. There are always ways around it. The only thing you can do I suppose is make sure you have a list of all people who DO have permission to use your Models. The only way to do that is to not allow downloads on your site. But ask people to send an e-mail asking permission to use the Model first. Then you send them the appropriate link(s). You would then at least know who has permission to use your Models. You could put the list on the site, so others know who has permission, and can report anyone who is using your Models and isn't on the list.

Realistically, that's about as much as you can do to make sure people don't use your Models without your permission.

I, Mudd · « **Reply #13 on:** July 19, 2004, 03:47:58 pm »

Permission.

Egos will kill this community.

What is being suggested here will further limit any growth to this already waning pastime of SFC. What's next? I'll have to E-mail Wicked Zombie to fly his ship model on D2?

I'll ask again; Why post ship models to the internet at all, if not to enrich the community's enjoyment of the game?

If some one uses one of my ships in a mod, and they don't credit me as a builder, what have I lost? Recognition? I already posted here and at TCS to let you all know about it's release ... it's still on my site for download ... hmm ... what have I lost? Credit? A Job? Money?

Help me out here ...

I, Mudd.

Sochin · « **Reply #14 on:** July 19, 2004, 03:55:14 pm »

Well said Mudd a dose of reality in an insane thread, Kudos

Wicked Zombie · « **Reply #15 on:** July 19, 2004, 03:57:41 pm »

Yes, this is somewhat familiar territory StressPuppy. There've been a number of credit skirmishes and wars these past few years (in fact that's pretty much the only excuse we modelers have for griping at each other), some of which were uncalled for. A few oversized egos got trigger happy and started firing off at others when a few calm, thought out emails and pm's could've solved the problem and not pulled everyone else into it uselessly.

The thing people have to remember is, most modelers are protective of their work (these ships do take a lot of time, afterall). So naturally, even the slightest hint of foul play regarding our models is going to get us chambering our rounds and taking aim. Usually, it is a bit of an overreaction as 99% of the time, the 'offenders' just didn't pay attention to the readmes/policies/whatever. Fortunately, I don't think things are going to get as bad as the last time...

Sapharite · « **Reply #16 on:** July 19, 2004, 04:11:29 pm »

That is why for instance after smoking cigarette I will ask you for permission if I'll need a part of your great work man to mount to my MOD

You have my respect here (well if anything like this mean something to you). I said that because I am overhelmed by this rows and my ego has fallen down (if only not to deep into the hell)

Take care

Wicked Zombie · « **Reply #17 on:** July 19, 2004, 04:16:08 pm »

Quote from: I, Mudd on July 19, 2004, 03:47:58 pm

What is being suggested here will further limit any growth to this already waning pastime of SFC. What's next? I'll have to E-mail Wicked Zombie to fly his ship model on D2?

I'd say that's a bit drastic - my ego isn't that oversized. Obviously, this whole deal is yet another example of why I (and others) should keep quiet in these matters as tossing in one's opinion/gripes seldom helps the situation. If everyone just stuck to email/pm/instant messages and settled these things off-site first, before hinting at it on the forums, things would be a lot more peaceful.

At any rate, in a week or two, everything will be back to the way it was, I've seen this happen all too often...

I, Mudd · « **Reply #18 on:** July 19, 2004, 06:52:48 pm »

Hey WZ,

I just pulled your name out of the hat, so to speak ... but if the shoe fits ...

I hear what your saying about it all blowing over. I'd been lurking within this community long before I started contributing back with Tiberius Station-1, and yeah, you're probably right ...

Quote

Obviously, this whole deal is yet another example of why I (and others) should keep quiet in these matters as tossing in one's opinion/gripes seldom helps the situation.

Yeah, maybe I should just shut up and let destructive behaviors to the community just run their course. But it doesn't have to be this way. We could actually learn something, for once, from this lunacy.

All I'm saying is, when does the silliness end? All this talk about 'ownership' of Star Trek/Star Wars/Babylon5/Buck Rogers/WTF-ever models and permission for this and that really seems like some folks are putting the cart before the horse. What good are the models when no one is around playing the game because of all the touchiness/bitchiness of the modders and modellers that helped create the communities greatness to begin with?

Egos. Pah!

I'd heard it said, model for yourself first. Cool. That's your own deal. That's how I started, and still do quite a bit. A model born on my HD and will die there. It'll never see the light of the internet. You have 100% control of that situation on how that model is used.

But when you post it on line to be made available for downloading, you give up quite a bit of that control, and you must acknowledge that fact before you release it. Sure, A read me crediting the author of the file is great, and seeking approval from the creator is honorable; but all this fanatical rhetoric overpermission to use this file in a mod?

( Needs of the many ... outweigh the needs of the few ... or the one?)

Remember the Boba Fett Model for Quake 2? The same model was used over in the Half-Life community. No fuss over that

Quick test: Who made the Judge Dredd model for Quake 3? Who developed the Judge Dredd Mod ( not just a model, but a true mod, like the Vampire Hunter Mod ...) for Half-Life? How about the Aliens snark mod for Half-Life? How about the Yoda MDL for JK2?

The point of the test is, it really doesn't matter. Those things enriched their communities and blessed them with long and enjoyable lives. Granted, First Person Shooter's communities aren't quite like this one, but aren't we supposed to be better than them anyways?

Well, I'd heard it said about the SFC community ( incidentally from the SFC community ...

) that they were better, but lately, I'm not seeing it. Freedom Force and NWN communities are allot better in the sense no one is yanking down website over someone not crediting somebody over something.

Nuff said.

I, Mudd.

Core · « **Reply #19 on:** July 19, 2004, 07:15:59 pm »

remember the core of the mater (and i will let you guys ponder on that note) truly remember it rise above the shell get to the core and all will be fine

intermech · « **Reply #20 on:** July 19, 2004, 07:21:30 pm »

PLEASE!! Use and kitbash my models. There is nothing I want more then to influence the Star Trek community with my own ideas of the future. Being strict with permissions with only stunt the progress of my intentions.

There are however some models which I will not let anyone use, fortunately I found a failsafe way of protecting them: I don't publish them.

Using extreme viewpoints to make a point,

Interstellar Machine

Katherine · « **Reply #21 on:** July 19, 2004, 07:24:31 pm »

Couldnt agree more Mudd.

There is ABSOLUTELY no concrete fool proof way to stop someone from ripping off a ship or a mod.

There is ABSOLUTELY no concrete fool proof way to stop someone from adding a mod and forgetting to ask permission to add it.

There is ABSOLUTELY no concrete fool proof way to stop a ship being released today to suddenly have no read me 1 year from now which means no one knows who originally made it.

Lets take a look at the top download sites JUST for SFC.

SFC3files

STGD

SFC Community Yards (the other STGD download site)

BC/D.net

Starfleet Universe (part of TUN Network)

Thats 5 that i know about. Theres more, the Galaxy Network in germany which is affilated with the STGD hold quite a few ships. There is also a few "file dump" sites that i personally know about thats used between the fleets, one of those file dumps has over 1000 ships (and is a well kept secret).

The original Star Trek Mod Directory have been down this road countless times. It is impossible to keep track of a ship or even a mod once it is published for download. Pass word protecting the .zip or .rar or even the .exe file DOES NOT work. The Armada modders (including myself) tried that a long time ago. The Klingon Academy modders also tried that a LONG time ago. I have seen a lot of Klingon Academy ships and mods being converted over by folks in here and in some other forums. Has permission been sought to convert those ships over? I bet in over 50% of the KA conversion cases permission hasnt been sought. If its that easy to convert over ships from an even smaller modding community then how easy would it be to convert ships or "rip off" ships in a larger modding community like the SFC series?

You also have the problem of the major download sites. I reckon about 1/4th of the ships currently being held by all of the major download sites have ships in there with the readme missing, or altered to give credits to the wrong people.

For the slate to be wiped clan so there was a chance of modders keeping track of the ships you would need ALL 5 of the major download sites, plus the other Star Trek community modding sites which holds ships for all trek games (like the STGD, we are the only one who does) including the entire filers network to keep an eye on ALL ships which was uploaded and to check ALL the readme.txt files that were in place in the existing ships they already have in the database. A complete wipe of all the "unknown" or uncertain pedigree ships from all of the download sites.

That is impossible.

You would also need to check ALL mods, like UNITY, NDF, DomWars, Island Wars, Chris Jones FIVE gigs worth of mods...and thats the one that this place know about. There is also fleets who are making mods of there own only for use in GSA, you need to get the fleets into this as well.

Trust me, STGD has been down this road many times and tried many solutions. Even if the modder was to bypass the major download sites and host them on his own webspace and password the files which would mean he would need to be emailed...how does the modder know that the next person to email him is going to rip off his work? He doesnt. Again, 1 year down the line, how does the modder know that a ship he released and passworded last year isnt going to be included in a mod where the mod authors couldnt locate the readme cause between the date of release and the inclusion of the ship into the mod the readme was removed? He doesnt.

The only viable way that was tried with the old Star Trek Mod Directory (and to an extent the present STGD) was to have a "license agreement" pop up BEFORE the download started which the downloader has to agree to. This way, the minute they hit that "I Agree" button they are legally bound to what that agreement says. Of course, it still doesnt stop a ship from appearing 5 months or 1 year later with the readme file missing, the reason....?

It is IMPOSSIBLE to track a mod or s ship once it's on someone elses harddrive. Taldren found out the hard way when the fleets started stripping out the 528 build from mods and useing it for there own mods.

OlBuzzard · « **Reply #22 on:** July 19, 2004, 08:21:37 pm »

Whew .... there for a while when I read the "curse" had raised its ugly head up.. Sandman... I was afraid you busted your other hand..

i do agree with ya to a degree sir.. though you must admidt these guys do have a vaild point of sorts. Just the program alone to do the work cost $$$$$$$ .. then there is the countless hours. Heck.. no better than I am in this area.. I must confess there is a degree of pride that I take, particularly in the development of Advanced Light Cruisers and the Titan projects that it would be nice if some one actually mentioned some of my ideas ... ( yeah ... like that is going to happen.. ) Just imagine how these folk feel about an entire master piece. I really have no paitence for those in the community who love to "borrow" stuff, publish it and take the bows without so much as a "kiss my butt" as to where the work came from or asking permission for using it. Somehow the idea that these same people are the conscious of the community attempting to decide what is best .... etc etc etc... yada yada yada !!

Oh well... I'm going to get old fashion pissed off if I dont get off this rant ...

hmmm where is dirty Harry when ya need 'im....

for what ever it's worth Sandman.. i do understand where you are comming from. It's a shame that we even have to be having this sort of a discussion !

OlBuzzard · « **Reply #23 on:** July 19, 2004, 08:36:52 pm »

After having read some of the replies... all I can say to some of ya is... just keep it up guys .. we wont have anyone left ...

maybe that is what ya want ..

If the guys DOING THE WORK is telling ya something ... MAYBE YA OUGHT TO LISTEN !!

just a thought !! ( my humble 2 cents worth that will undoubtedly be totally disregarded)

I just hope that somehow this mess can be cleared up and we don't end up loosing some of the best modelers around. In case some of you knot heads haven't figured it out just yet... our community really needs to pull togeather ... not apart.

Insisting that the countless hours of work that is done for our benefit does not need to be acknowledged or honored is of the poorest taste and display of charactor I can imagine.

BTW ... wasn't there a similar hotly contested matter in the Old Taldren forum ... with the same attitude reflected there too.

I'm getting sick at the stomach ... this sort of total disrespect makes me ashamed !

is there an emoticon with someone putting a sack over there head !

Wicked Zombie · « **Reply #24 on:** July 19, 2004, 09:00:47 pm »

Yes, I do model primarily for myself though I have made a few not-too-selfish contributions (notably the Melak and Titans). I also prefer minding my own damn business as whenever I do pipe in on something, it seldom helps (case in point - recent threads).

I will admit that my post a few days ago was rather overblown but at the time I was more interested in showing to others that they weren't alone in their credit issues. I've noticed that people tend to calm down and feel less threatened when they know they aren't singled out. I never said anything about actually locking down DRS and flipping everyone off, I simply stated that the thought had crossed my mind a few times (as I'm sure everyone has felt that way at some point). That has been one of the few, if only time in 4 or so years that I've posted anything regarding any misuse of ships (at least mine anyway). I'm fairly lenient when it comes to my work as long as I'm informed of any changes/conversions/etc. as I simply prefer knowing what's being done. That's really the only semblance of control anyone can have on publicly released ships.

This isn't to say I like the idea of someone else claiming my Deathwing or Cobra as their own creations, and I doubt anyone would appreciate being ripped off, even on such a seemingly mediocre level. That's another reason why I prefer keeping tabs on where my ships are downloaded from. Egotistical? Damn right it is, but I think we're all entitled to a little arrogance since these things are free afterall. The trick is to not let it get out of hand.

The only ways to prevent anyone else from misusing or futzing around with your work is to either be very detailed and specific with your readmes/mod use policies, be extremely tyrannical with the distribution, or just not post anything at all. I've only witnessed a handful of intentional 'offenders' in the past - most everyone else simply didn't pay attention to what they were doing and let the 'rules' slip through the cracks. This often leads to excessive reactions and another big-whoop in the forums which dies down after a week or so.

These latest little skirmishes are nothing compared to what's happened in the past. Hell, the first day I started modding, there was a big credit war going on, and that was at the long dead gaming forums before Taldren's even started up. These incidents are commonplace and are as much a part of the community as the people in it. I've yet to see anything seriously counterproductive spawn from them as things are still handled the way they are now as they were 4 or 5 years ago. Best to just sit back, and watch the show....

Sandman3D · « **Reply #25 on:** July 20, 2004, 02:08:01 am »

Man, I start a thread trying to calm things down and we get all this....

I think WZ said it best in his post above, so I won't try to say it again.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, let's all just take a day or two, work on a model or play the game (how long has it been for ya?) and get back to the main reason we all come here...enhancing our, and the communities game, or personal Trek universe. I didn't make a post in Terra's thread because I didn't want to add to the fire. I think we should adopt a policy of if it doesn't concern us directly, don't add to it. PLEASE!! Yes, I'm being selfish, because I want to continue to be inspired and learn from the guys at the top of the heap.

Dolphoenix · « **Reply #26 on:** July 20, 2004, 02:12:00 am »

You know, some of the modders in SFC have been the best around. It really makes a statement that so many have left.

J-O-K-E-R · « **Reply #27 on:** July 20, 2004, 09:47:34 am »

Quote from: Sandman3D on July 19, 2004, 12:45:43 pm

Any of you old Taldrenites recognize the direction that we are starting to fall into? All the problems about PERMISSIONs is what drove away some of our best modelers. All the bickering and name calling is worthless and accomplishes nothing. All it does is alienate the honest bashes and modders...the ones who don't ask are sitting back and laughing their a$$e$ off. This stuff will continue until someone comes up with a way to make a .mod file write protected or conversion protected. Until then, just chill. You don't have to get upset over it...hell, feel flattered that someone like your stuff enough to go to the trouble to steal it. Yes I like to be acknowledged, but as I'm not an expert or anything, I don't sweat it. Once you start getting upset over this stuff, your hobby is no longer fun.

IN OTHER WORDS...CALM DOWN AND DON'T SWEAT IT!!!!!

Yes, I agree, just remember, "its just a game"

kingconstantine · « **Reply #28 on:** July 20, 2004, 10:13:11 am »

personaly i have no probs with people using my work. hell you seen my stuff? like anyone would want to claim it as ther own. (hands off the lib grrrrr)

i only bash the taldren origonals. cos we paid for them and the credits are in the game so i dont feal permissions are an issue. saves a lot of time and truble lol

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Topic: The Curse raises its ugly little head.... (Read 3227 times)