Topic: What are peoples preferences on ship speed?

[The Pelican]

I have something similar in the latest version of my mod, a throwback to the old days of DomWars. Before a ship dies, most of it's systems are in tatters, though not even I can get around the bug with Heavy Weapons (they rarely ever take any random damage, you have to target them individually)

I'm curious though, to get lots of sub-systems to die during a battle, you have to do one of 3 things,

1- Make the hulls ultra strong (battle lasts so long that lots of system damage is taken)
2- Crank up the weapon damage
3- Lower the health of the weapons.

I'm asking because I don't know if you're aware of the issue of Weapon Health, because of the way the game is programmed, the points where a weapons accuracy changes because of it's current health appears to be preset. Meaning that if you lower it's starting health, you can make the weapon much less accurate. Even I didn't realise this one until a few months ago. I spent weeks arguing with Dave Ferrell that the Gravimetric was less accurate than the Quantum, when in fact it was because I'd lowered the health of the Gravimetric to the level of the Quantum, which happens to be half it's default health.

Me, I've gone for Option 2, I dropped Shield Regeneration completely to have strong shields & very high weapon damage. Now when you target a sub-system, a few blasts usually knocks it out. Very handy when fighting Rommies!!!

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On your Lyran issues, Myo's and SIB's are a powerful combination, not really because of Power, but because of their accuracy, both have guaranteed 90% accuracy at all ranges. I would suggest swopping one with the Ion Cannon, but I don't know who you've given it to, so that may not be possible.

[Azrael]

Well Red,

There are many who share your opinion that Star Ship Combat is Star Ship Combat, and that fighter dogfights are another game all together.

Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan - Now that's how Star Ships should fight, by Crom!

Azrael

[Red_Green]

I increased weapon health of the other 3 races to be similar to the Borg slot. I approximately doubled shield efficiency. More for the Feds. Less for others. Fewest for the Pirates. Increased armour and shields str by about 50%.  Then increased   primary weapons by 20% or so.  The Lyrans had no increase in primary . Heavies go up by 10-50% based on balance issueshowever. For example the inversion beam and mytronic beam and the disruptor's the Lyrans used did not get much help.

Inertia is the tendency for objects at rest to remain at rest, and objects in motion to remain in motion. I have never been in space. But friction is what brings objects in motion to rest on Earth. Without friction an object that is in motion has to be stopped without any aid from friction. This is why a heavy capitol ship would be more difficult to start and stop or change direction. It can best be simulated in game by adding base weight to ships. What I did is make shield mass and armour mass 10% or so of default. This prevents people from gaining speed by not equipping shields. The mass removed from shields and armour was added to the ships base weight. More weight added as class increases. Making DN's sluggish. Not just slow turn rates, but they don't respond to change of directions immediately. Like driving a truck after you just got out of a sports car.

For FF and DD classes not much is different. By the time you get to CA there will be a drop in ship handling.
It does change things, not just make Dn's turn slower.

1: Gives FF and DD more important roles to hit dropped shields.
2: Its very likely that a DN trying to turn on a DD will find its target out of weapons range by the time its  forward arcs are brought to bear.
3: Shuttles and mines have a bigger role. Shuttles have shields and drop mines. Mines do about 60% more damage
4: As a ships warp core takes damage the drop in speed is more noticeable because of the base weight , especially DN's.
5: Most ships can turn in reverse. Because of inertia and slow speeds in reverse, a DN is almost impossible to turn in reverse.  This is why DN's have fire support cruisers and  why there are other classes to support the DN.


To help the DN compensate for its difficulty in turning. I plan on increasing number of shuttles. Fortunately they do tend to have more rear arcs.

[The Pelican]

Shield Efficiency just controls how much power the Shield uses (I think it's Efficiency x Power = Strength) - doesn't touch recharge rates unfortunately (and annoyingly). Doubling the Efficiency without touching the strength would simply make them require only half the power. (P.S. - Very few people know that the amount of damage a Shield can absorb is in fact DOUBLE it's Rating.)

You should be careful with Heavie's/Primaries. - Heavies do a lot of Hull damage, whereas Primaries take out a lot of sub-systems. If you make Heavies too powerful, you'll find players will ignore primaries and only use Heavies. Especially if it's a good Heavy like a Quantum or Heavy Plasma.

As far as Physics go, I studied it from both the mathematical and the physics point of view - and both give the same result, there is no limit to how fast a ship can turn in space. All you require is more energy. On earth, because of friction & air resistance, there is a point at which the amount of energy required increase at a serious exponential rate, making the energy requirement to turn any faster simply too high to be worthwhile. In space, there is no friction. Inertia is always there, but without anything to counter the force making the object turn - you can make the object turn as fast as the amount of force you give it. F=ma if you will. It's the same for the speed of an object. You also have to remember that you have to make the object stop turning, it will not do it itself, as there is nothing to slow it down, it will continue turning until a force is applied to slow it down.

[Red_Green]

Good info on the heavy/primaries.  These new learning amazes me. Explain again how sheep bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes. (from Monty Python-"The Quest for the Holy Grail")

I  am enjoying this inertia topic. I think the biggest problem would be stopping the spin. There is also the human factor and G-forces. Lets not forget that not a single Star Trek  ship has any seat belts or restraints.  That must suck when they drop out from warp 9 to impulse 

[The Pelican]

Inertial compensators - which they combine with the artificial gravity generators (as they are essentially the same thing doing a different job). They are what allows a ship to travel at extreme speeds without affecting the crew.

The computer can compensate perfectly when IT is accelerating & deccelerating. However, when something impacts the ship, it's compensation is delayed, hence the reason why they get thrown about when a torpedo hits the ship.

Now that someone has discovered how to create Artificial Gravity (albeit on a small scale) - inertial compensators will one day be reality, not just science fiction.

Stopping the Spin requires precisely the same amount of energy as was required to create the spin. In it's simplest terms, you are limited solely by the amount of energy you can create.

[IKSKevin]

SLOW SHIPS DRIVE ME FREAKING CRAZY!  (thats all I have to say.)   

[Red_Green]

Well I hadn;t played A DD for awhile since I modded. They are fast. So not all my ships are slow. I believe there needs to be a more pronounced difference in turn rates and ships speeds in combat between the different ship classes. If they all are fast why have different classes then?  I am also against uber ships as well.
Generally the younger player wants fast speeds, high turn rates and uber ships. I call this McDonald's syndrome.
Do everything fast-battle over in 5 minutes then repeat. To me that is more boring then a prolonged battle where DN's behave like a DN. Vollies are exchanged and the battle has an ebb and flow to it. Where the interest is-the outcome is in question. The battle has lasted say 16 minutes and both you and your opponent are at 20% hull str throwing spitballs at each other cause your ships are in tatters.

Another point is I like DD and CL classes and if A CA and DN turn and cruise at similar speeds to a DD and CL , then those classes are completely useless.

I also read a story in the Smithsonian that claims space is nothing at all like portrayed in Star Trek. People watch co many Sci-FI shows that they think space travel is like going to the grocery store. There are serious
obstacles to overcome like radiation for 1. But this fast turning may indeed be feasible, it seems unlikely with a DN equipped with heavy armoring and shields.  The ship that was used to land on the moon had paper thin plating. It was not intended for combat. Adding plating would add mass and you have to lose turn rate.

Yes I know in the 24th century armour may be light and new technology will be available. For game purposes I just don;t like DN's moving and banking like fighters. Hey thats another valid question. Why would ships in space bank at all with no atmosphere or gravity?

[Magnum357]

Hey, is it ok if I input my opinion on this.     Let me first say to Red_Green that I like your direction you are taking your mod.  I hope Pelican forgives me on this but I have noticed that he is a stickler when it comes too SFC3 modding.  He has a ton of experience modding SFC3, but I have noticed that he has his own style of play and prefers that style (at least, that is what I have noticed).  This is not bad really, some people like to play SFC3 differently then others.  I have always liked playing the GAW mod because it follows a similar doctrine that you seem to want to make with your mod green.  Pelican does improve his mod often, but for me its just not my cup of tea, but others do like it very much. 

Back to the Inertia topic for a moment. I've noticed both you and Pelican are debating how this is suppose to work in SFC and in Star Trek.  Personally, I never gave a sh#t how Star Trek portrays Starship combat and I never use the show as an example when I mod a Star Trek game.  Has anyone ever noticed how much differences Starship combat works from show to show in the Series?  Its just Hollywood throwing out fancy graphics for the audience to say "ooo... ahhhh".  And Red, you do bring up a good point, how the hell does a ship "Bank" in space.  it shouldn't, right?  Well, when I think of ship combat, I like to base the concept of it on the good old Spaceship games of SFB and Starfire.  In those old board games, ships banked because they are moving at tremendous velocities (hundreds to thousands of Kiliometers per second) and use Spacial Warp Feilds to decrease the Inertia and Mass in order to do this.  In SFB, the Warp Engines are what do this.  All ships in SFB had Impulse Engines, but their only use was that they moved your ship at speed 1 and gave you power too run certain systems.  The Warp Engines in SFB are what gave you high speed propulsion when you played the game.  The theory in the game was that the Warp Feild help augment the effects of Inertia so that ships moved at tremendous velocities, but the unfortunetly the trade off to this is that the ships had a threshold of how fast they could go (in SFB it was speed 32, in Star Fire, most Captiol ships could not reach beyound speed 3 or 4, they used a different scaling system in that game) and the other disadvantage was that it took quite a bit of power too turn such a massive vessel as such high velocities with the Spacial Warp Feild in effect (think of it as a low level Subspace feild acting on the vessel).  That is why the HET has been in all the versions of SFC (and in SFB), in effect its focusing all the Spacial Feild Energy on one point in subspace in order for the ship to perform such a Highly dangerous maneuver.  This is why ships in SFC (and in SFB and Starfire) "Bank" in the game.  Ya, their is no friction in Space, but their is "Energy Management" and "Effects" in Subspace that cause the ships to perform the way they do in SFC.  This has always been the standard explanation to SFB and I can live with it in SFC too.

Anyway, I like where your going with this Red_Green.  I think I might check out your mod when its ready. 

[The Pelican]

I don't use Trek as much of an example, I use simple physics. Ships do not need to Bank, at any velocity. They Bank in the game and the show for the visual effect - that was from Dave Ferrell!!

You can't decrease mass, not without removing something from the ship. Scientific fact I'm afraid, it's quite literally the number of photons, neutrons & elections which make up the ship. If you could create some form of gravitational field, then you can affect the movement of a ship (the ship will be pulled in the direction of the field, at a speed dependent on mass). But it would likely take MORE energy to create the gravitation field than to actually just move the ship.

[Death_Merchant]

You can't decrease mass, not without removing something from the ship.

What if the Captain orders the entire crew to jump up at the same time?
Then their feet aren't touching the deck-> instant lighter ship!

or get McCoy to enforce a diet for Kirk -> no paunch? That's 20 lbs right there!

Sorry, couldn't help it.
Arguing about the physics and "performance" of pretend starships is silly^7

They bank cuz' it kewl. They go "whoosh" cuz' otherwise in space "no one can hear you yawn"

Having spouted that additional silliness, I'm not sure how useful slower ship speeds in SFC3 are:
1) SFC3 ships are much more combat effective right until destruction than SFC2 ships. Slow maneuvering to get that extra photon into an open shield -> yields little impact in SFC3
2) As pointed out earlier: In SFC3 there is "less to do"

Personally, I like the more methodically paced game. If SFC3 ships took power damage like SFC2, a slower speed game would be interesting.

[Magnum357]

Pelican, I'm just pointing out the explanation of why ships bank in SFB and Starfire.  SFC's game mechanics are based on those games. 

Who knows if this "spacial warp bubble" or whatever, does this to ships in SFC/SFB.  Ya, it isn't proven in physics that this "Spacial Warp Bubble" or "Subspace" is true, but neither is Warp Drive either and I don't see many Trek fans complaining just because our science can't prove it.  And if I recal, before we blew up the first Atom Bomb their was quite a bit of sceptisism if splitting an atom was even possible (let alone what effects it could do). 

All I'm saying is that in SFC, ships bank because if you tried too turn the ship "on a dime" when your Subspace Feild is active, your ship couldn't handle the stresses of such an extreme maneuver and would tear itself appart (let alone what it would do to the crew).  Now if the ship is just at Thuster/Impulse Speeds (without the Subspace bubble) then the ship would perform like the Space Shuttle or the Apollo Space Craft we have today. 

[The Pelican]

I know, I was just pointing it out. I stick to the fact that it looks good, nothing more.

Actually, If I remember correctly, they have proved the existence of SubSpace, though unlike Trek's, information doesn't travel along it at warp speed, it travels at the same speed as normal space.

[kortez]

SLOW SHIPS DRIVE ME FREAKING CRAZY!  (thats all I have to say.)   

LOL, I lean towards liking faster turning ships myself.  I can also do without the banking affect.

[Red_Green]

[quote author=Death_Merchant What if the Captain orders the entire crew to jump up at the same time?
Then their feet aren't touching the deck-> instant lighter ship!

or get McCoy to enforce a diet for Kirk -> no paunch? That's 20 lbs right there!

Sorry, couldn't help it.
Arguing about the physics and "performance" of pretend starships is silly^7

They bank cuz' it kewl. They go "whoosh" cuz' otherwise in space "no one can hear you yawn"

Having spouted that additional silliness, I'm not sure how useful slower ship speeds in SFC3 are:
1) SFC3 ships are much more combat effective right until destruction than SFC2 ships. Slow maneuvering to get that extra photon into an open shield -> yields little impact in SFC3
2) As pointed out earlier: In SFC3 there is "less to do"

Personally, I like the more methodically paced game. If SFC3 ships took power damage like SFC2, a slower speed game would be interesting.

I changed it so CA's and Dn's are completely useless once there down to 25% hull str. Often they have no weapons intact. DD,s however and FF,s tend to still have that trait of being in fairly good shape system wise and then blowing up. I suspect I could make them as I did the DN,s where there useless near the end, but think that would involve an entire rework so not worth it. Rather spend time polishing what I have so far.

Regarding there is less to do in SFC3. I am fixing that  somewhat.

As I get further along, it I getting a better idea of what I am trying ti accomplish. If that makes any sense 

The mods purpose is 3 fold really, make combat slower and last longer-more like what I got accustomed to in SFC2.

The other purpose is to highlight the DD and CL class. This classes should shine in this mod. The slower speeds allow easier targeting for ships for dropping mines.

Finally it is meant to showcase minor SFB races. Part of this is reassigning the cloak ad no races I am putting in use it. So I am giving 1 cloaked ship to each race. Making it less common so perhaps more of a surprise when a ship does uncloak. Maybe I mentioned that before.

Actually I slowed down the DD's a bit now as well. Slowing down turn rates and ship speeds affects games in more ways then I first thought. I listed them below.

1: Its far easier to control and view the battle from the F2 view instead of using overhead. I don't like using overhead view as the battle looks less personal and compelling.

2. Shield recharge as you know can't be changed. But slower turn rates in effect give your downed shield more time to recover. Now if you played the game at speed 10. The ships would appear normal speed but would still have this shield benefit

3. It will be easier to drop mines in front of ships. I miss T-bombs from SFC2. Trying to highlight mines again. This ties in to the destroyers role. At stock game speeds it is near impossible to hit a ff or DD with a mine. Now it can be done perhaps 50% or more of the time.

4. Slower turn rates/speeds = less of an impact from angular velocity.

As far as what to do?  There will be much positioning to drop anti matter mines or avoiding them. Mines will be a big part of the mod. Ships will carry 50% more mines
Shuttles will have and be dropping mines. The Lyrans will have a corvette/PF instead of shuttles. Basically a ship half the strength of an FF.


What I have done to help the DD class play a bigger role

1. Slower CA's and DN's make excellent targets for mines. Related to mines. The Lyrans have the mytronic beam that stuns weapons giving them the best defense for ships that try to time a mine drop in there forward path.

2. There will be specialty DD ships that have stronger rear shields. 14 mines, rear facing heavy weapon arcs. Facilitating my favorite tactic. Speed past drop mine, fire weapons and speed away, either veer off to side to stay out of arcs and then criss cross in front or circle back.

3. What about getting tractored by a DN and then pummeled at close range into tiny space Debri?  Well, ever notice how a smaller class is always able to defaet a tractor even on a Borg DN? Course its cause its written into the script. But Voyager defeated a borg Tractor in 1 show by sending some carrier wave thru its deflector dish. So I feel any class should be able to defeat a tractor, makes it more interesting and extends the life of a DD class. What I did is all ships have Tractor4.
All ships have enough power to run level 4 on the tractor. Though the FF has just barely enough. So if its warp takes slight damage, it would only be able to run level 3. So there will still be cases of ships being held until if your not careful. 1 more reason not to skimp on warp power.
This allows a DD to drop its mines in front of a DN (as long as your rear shields are reinforced) without the fear of getting tractored and pummeled. As long as you set your tracs to lev 4 repel and your warp is still up to snuff. Now the down side of keeping level 4 repel to your tractors is there is less power for your shields.
So its a trade off. If you watch close you may be able to tell if the DN has power to his tractors by the str of his shields. If he doesn't, you wouldn't need level 4 in repel then.

Another thing to do is keep adjusting your power managemet. It would be nice if there were 2 or 3 preset hotkeys to go between max power to shields and max power to weapons. The slower turn rates give you more time to adjust your power based on where the enemy ship is and how long before your weapons will be in position to fire. You may prefer not to use your weapons at all when you drop mines but put all power to shields until you run out. 

I have decided though just to mod it how I want, otherwise I won't play my own mod LOL. Chances are some will like it while others will hate it, thats the nature of mods. Also I found out I was getting burned out on this, been working on it for 3-4 months. I was about ready to release it I thought, but after testing it by playing about 30 missions, I felt it needed more fine tuning. Simple stuff like making the AI marauder and pirates, a threat weapon wise. As they usually never even drop my shields. Decided to give Lyrans a PF instead of shuttle for variety. Adding in rear facing weapons for DD ships. Adding in the USS Raven for the Feds. Perhaps giving the Feds either extra arcs are 1 or 2 wider arcs.  Found that it may be too easy for a DD to just shadow a CA  from behind for example. So may add a 180 rear arc primary for example just to keep things honest.

I play on a 800 mhz computer so the mod is tailored to that . One of the things I have problems with on my system is it takes 1-2 minutes for the game to process all the map movements, news and officer updates I am reducing the number of officers available at bases and limited the max didplayed to 6. This seams to sspeedup the game while in the map area quite a bit. I also have found it best to limit mission fllet sizes to 4 vs 5 for game play smoothness.

Intending to rreleasethis in a polished state as I don't see myself updating after release for quite awhile.
Oh another thing I just changed is made the wweaponshave a greater chance to hit. As you work harder to get a good shot, this seamed nnecessary otherwise it gets too frustrating when you miss with plasmas and have to wait to recharge.

[The Pelican]

Modding does tire you out, I've been doing DomWars for 18 months now. Haven't really done much to the mod for 3-4 months really. Got tired of re-building it every month. Working on one last build though, then I'll make my planned Multi-Era Mod, and that'll be the last SFC3 Mod I make. I may convert it to OP as well, it'll work well for that game.

[Red_Green]

My hats off to you. Thats a lot of  work that you have done. Wipes sweat from brow just thinking about it. I mean at times its a blast. But ever so often there comes a time where I readjust some item and have to change it thru out the loadout file. Tedious.  I know that an OP conversion of your mod would be well taken.

[The Pelican]

I'd have to spend some time working with OP to figure out the best way to set the mod up for OP. It's a completely different game really. It depends really, looking into doing a ST Mod for various other games, there are some out there for Freelancer, might be worth looking into doing something for that, or perhaps Homeworld 2, that has a stunning graphics engine.

We shall see, back to converting ships to SFC3 now... got about a 100 to get through...