Topic: Litterbox Test Server for OP is up!

[Gook]

I think the DIPshiplist may be a little out of kilter, certaimly as far as the Kzin are concerned.

I have been playing a DF, DIP BPV 99. I have met many much bigger ships than I even with inflated  BPV. So I decided to have a quick trawl through Klink, Fed, Rommie and Kzin. Chose semi randomly as there was little point in saying any ships which had no chance of being flow.

Listed ships are type, followed by DIP BPV according to vessel library (DIP list installed per Jlins installler).

Klinks:

RKL    119
MD5   118
D6     118
D5KR  114
D5     110
FwV   106 (6*ftrs)
FWC   104
FWK   104
Fw5   101
E7     148
D7VK 145
D7T   143
D7L   143
D6DR 142
D7C   141
D5D   141
D6MR 135
HF5xx 135-147
C7      195
C5      192
FDW   169
DWV  164
DWC  163


Feds

FFV+    68
DD       94
DDL      94
ECL      95
DW      98
DWC   112
DWD   112
DER     116
NCL     118
NCLR   122
CA      125
DWV   126
CLV     129
CAR     129
CLD     129
CC       137
CAR+R 140
HDW1-3     144
CLC      149
NAL      146
CB        169
NCF      169
BCF      182
BCE      196
BCG      197
CVLT    142
DN       180
CVA     302
SCS      324


Romulan

SEL        80
SKE        84
K5L        87
KR        101
SPF       106
SPH+    110
SPA      111
KRB      117
SPL      118
SBH1    122
KDR      123
KE        123
KRM      128
K7R      133
SPM      136
KWR     143
KRC      150
FHK      159
KRCS    161
KVL      162
KCR      196
RGK      160
TH        200
KHK      200
SHR      205


Kzinti

FFK         90
DW         97
DF          99
DD        103
DFR       106
DD+      107
DWL      111
DWD     111
DWV     116
DWLR    118
CS         129
CM        129
BF         136
CM+      136
MEC      137
CD        138
MDC      140
CA        141
CVL       141
MCC      141
BC        143
MCV      146
BC+      147
CC        150
MDC+    150
HDW2   151
NEC      156
HDWC2 156
HDW3   157
NCF      167
HDWC3 162
NCC      167
CCH      168
HDW1   169
HDWc1  174
CV         181
HDWV    192
CVD       244
CVS+     212
BCH       216
CVA       260
SCS       279


Now I realise these BPVs only affect AI battles and the PP that you pay is the PvP cost but something is wrong.

CM, D5, NCL, SPHA are all the same generation of new light cruisers but BPV here is 129, 110, 118, and 111. While the Rommie, Klink and Freds are comparable the Kzin is way out the range. It would seem that no account has been taken of shielding, turnmode, transporters or the like in the "combat effectiveness" if it has why such a disparity in "line" CLs.

Similar comparisons can be made throughout the list. I didn't put in Klink "FFs" as the usable Kzin ones started in the 90's and so will be facing CLs from other races.

The FWV has 6 fighters and has a BPV of 106, less than a Kzin DD+

A CM+ is apparently a matchup for a CC( Fed)  and better than a CAR, CLV, and CLD, or in Rommie terms KDR, KE, or K7R. Add in the BPV bonus the AI gets of say 15% and add say another 20 BPV (roughly) and the BPV match ups are KRCs, FHKs and KVLs.

Get a Kzin HDWC1 and its match ups at 174 will be C7s.

The Good old mainstay the DF with its massive 14 front shield and useless range 10 dizzy will be facing D5,RKL,MD5,D5KR,D5K,DER,NCL,etc etc.

If I were dumb enough to fly a Kzin CV my match ups wotld be KHKs, THs, C7s, C5s, Fed DNs and a wall their BCHs.

You all get the idea. Now these missions are 1v1 patrol styles, when the new missions with 2 or thre such opponents it will be very difficult and certainly no fun. The more so when you consider that the Allies the Kzin will have will be similarly neutered. The effect of the "combat effectiveness" DIP rating AND multiple new ship missions will make life very difficult indeed, and I have to question whether it will be fun enough to play. On top of that you still have to pay for the drones. Now the Feds and Klinks have very viable none drone main fleets, the Kzin do not, and have nothing to fall back on. The CM is supposed to be the mainstay of the fleet, but is way too costly, even if it had it's original (in SFB) 27 warp, rather than the neutered 24 here. The HDDs for the Kzin cost as much if not more than a CCH and the CV variant as much as TH or C7!

I realise lots have work has gone into the list, but fear that the anti drone lobby has won out and this is compounded by the new multiple missions with AI matchups in the +115% area. Hell a TH or KHK can kill very fast and are very survivable, and don't need to resupply (yes I know the Rommies are coalition, but the DIPlist is not just for LB5).

Klink, Fed and Rommie HDDs look like bargains, even AI piloted MD5s do damage to weak shields and they turn on a dime.

I realise this sounds like whinging, but just look at the list and the matchups. I will fly more on the test server, and hope my initial fears and experiences are abberations and not the norm.

[Lepton]

I would assume it is some effect of a drone bump for the Kzins.  I think if you look at similar 6 drone rack ships in other races they got bumps as well.  For instance D5D is 141.  That's in the CA range.  Perhaps the drone bump is just too large in general.

[Green]

I would assume it is some effect of a drone bump for the Kzins.  I think if you look at similar 6 drone rack ships in other races they got bumps as well.  For instance D5D is 141.  That's in the CA range.  Perhaps the drone bump is just too large in general.

That is very possible, but we can't really say it is a known until LB5 has been completed.  I played a good number of missions in the test server w/ a Z-CL, -CC, -DNE, and -CVAR, the AI enemy were not a problem ... but I must note that is against stock missions, not ED, Tracey, or Karnak missions.  Since LB5 will be a go with stock missions, I doubt there will be a problem for this one.  But it might take some looking into for follow-on servers with this list that use the tweaked missions.

PS - The Z-MCC should be listed as ... oh, lets say 80 BPV ... yeah that seems about right ...

[Dizzy]

Well, Bonk... there is more than meets the eye when you look at the DIP list. It does seem out of whack, but there are current;y 2x different methods for getting enemy AI. Class Type, which you didnt take into account, and then of course bpv.

What you get in mission will depend on many things. Certainty is not one of them. So just try it out. And dont formulate an opinion just using stock missions, there is another system of AI spawning that will occur entirely differently using an EEK pack.

[Julin Eurthyr]

I would assume it is some effect of a drone bump for the Kzins.  I think if you look at similar 6 drone rack ships in other races they got bumps as well.  For instance D5D is 141.  That's in the CA range.  Perhaps the drone bump is just too large in general.

That is very possible, but we can't really say it is a known until LB5 has been completed.  I played a good number of missions in the test server w/ a Z-CL, -CC, -DNE, and -CVAR, the AI enemy were not a problem ... but I must note that is against stock missions, not ED, Tracey, or Karnak missions.  Since LB5 will be a go with stock missions, I doubt there will be a problem for this one.  But it might take some looking into for follow-on servers with this list that use the tweaked missions.

PS - The Z-MCC should be listed as ... oh, lets say 80 BPV ... yeah that seems about right ...

Well, that's one of the reasons we're having this shindig this way...

Live test, under fire, of the DIP formulae...

If things are out of whack, we'll readjust for next time...

(and if you get the MCC at 80 BPV, we want a CCZ at 150... )

[KBF-Crim]

Well, that's one of the reasons we're having this shindig this way...

Live test, under fire, of the DIP formulae...

If things are out of whack, we'll readjust for next time...

(and if you get the MCC at 80 BPV, we want a CCZ at 150... )

Well...You'd better plan on running another server then...with a traditional set up...