Topic: Bridge the D-2/D-3 gap ...

[AdmWaterTiger-11thFleet-]

Just a stupid idea here ...

Would it be possible to have some sort of Dyna-type Tournament to have SFC3'ers and EAW/OP'ers participate in a cross-Dyna experiance? There is LB-5 coming up, I know.

This would be a little different, however.

Many of our 30 fleet members in the BOTAKnights have never played EAW/OP. Personally, that is where it began for me with 14G and FDA fleets on GZLeagues in old GSA.

There were those in EAW who tried the SFC3 and I still remember the GSA lobby rants about it. We hated it -- at least at first.

FedX was the only EAW fleet to make the true crossover and then returned and have recently come back to the D-3. FedXGendo and FedxMasterZen and others are appearing on the D-3 of late, and recently participated in ThePelican's Dominion Wars.

There are some large fleets out there who could learn from eachother on this cross-Dyna venture.

KOTH has members who play both, and Kortez is very supportive of SFC3, and prefers it.

Personally I hated SFC3 for weeks, until someone shared the time to teach it to me -- and then I never looked back. Ya', I still have EAW it loaded -- always will. From time to time I go to GSA and try to beat my old nemisis, CaptainKirkIcop ... (Gah, I beat that guy 2 times and he smokes me repeatedly).

So the proposal here would be is to get some of the larger fleets involved in an EAW/OP Dyna, then carry VC's or something over to the D-3. Perhaps MasterZen could head this up? I'll try to reach him and pitch this idea. Perhaps Kortez could be involved with KOTH?

STGD would support the effort, as I'm sure would Whoo with GZLeagues and WGL.

Don't know ... Just a stupid thought.

Ideas?

<S>

WaterTiger

[Grim]

With LB5 you should see some of us D2 Regulars trying out the sfc3 side of the campaign. I've installed the game myself despite the fact i dont like it, but as Fluf and others have put so much work into the campaign and also asking us to fly in both if possible, i am willing to give it a go.

In terms of trying to have a regular setup, i doubt it could happen, the two platforms are comptley different.

I would allways pick d2 over d3 personally, thats because i prefer OP and EAW to sfc3.

[AdmWaterTiger-11thFleet-]

Perhaps LB-5 is the best try at this ... I'll make contact with FedXMasterZen and Gendo and see if we can garner support ...

If anyone needs SFC3 assist, perhaps we can meet on GSA. Just PM -- be glad to help and make the game make sense to EAW/OP'ers.

Fluf, is there a shiplist for LB-5?

What downloads are needed?

<S>

WaterTiger

[Fluf]

LB-5 should be ready in the next 2 days.  Still finishing OP shiplist and getting the installers ready for SFC3. Hope to have a Test server up for both by Thursday at the latest.  Awaiting word from Karnak on his redoing some missions for OP.

[kortez]

WT, thanks man!  That is good, to garner support for LB5 because the VCs will encourage cooperation and crossover.  I suspect Fluf will be here soon to explain it more fully.

Once again, Thanks WaterTiger!

[Chris Jones]

Although I don't play campaigns very much, mostly due to constant modding, the idea of 'bridging the gap' (as I mentioned in another post) between SFC3 and EAW/OP is a great idea - and can only bring us all closer together. Kudos!

 - Chris

[FPF-DieHard]

Don't mean to piss in anyones Corn Flakes, but any D2 people interested in D3 have already switched.

Might as well talk about "bridging the gap" between Pong and Pac Man.

[AdmWaterTiger-11thFleet-]

Don't mean to piss in anyones Corn Flakes, but any D2 people interested in D3 have already switched.

Might as well talk about "bridging the gap" between Pong and Pac Man.

Not true.

And we eat Wheaties; Corn Flakes get soggy.

<S>

WaterTiger

[Fluf]

Actually WaterTiger it probably is true.  I doubt any of the D2 players that tried SFC3 when it first came out and hated it will ever try it again.  I spent and hour on MSN with Diehard last night, and he will never play the game again.  Same with Chuut Ritt.  He played SFC3 when it first came out on LB1 for about and hour, hated it and threw away the disc.

Most of the D2 players that tried the game and liked it either stayed or play both.  Trying to convert the hardcore SFBers is not possible. They will never like the game and I dont intend to make them try.  All I can do is ask them to give it one more shot.

As for the D3 players, and from the style of mods I have seen over there, I doubt many if any would try to play OP.  It is a much slower game, and much harder to play, and I dont think it would hold their attention for any amount of time.  Hell they complain now if they cant get a one shot kill, or if a mission goes over 3 mins and doesnt pay out 10K lol.  I dont think they could adapt to PvP that might take an hour of real tactics and having to think 3 moves ahead, much less missions that only pay 300 to 500PP. 

Bottom line is they are 2 different games.  I enjoy them both.  Some people will not like one or the other.

[AdmWaterTiger-11thFleet-]

Like I said, hated SFC3, too. Until I had someone spend the time to explain the refits and masses and the difference between ecm, power shift and angular velocity.

I'm not ready to give up on them -- yet.

<S>

WaterTiger

[GE-Raven]

Heh... no seeking weapons and a lot less "tactical stuff" pretty much turned me off on SFC 3.   I am a Gorn at heart, and unfortunately everything in  SFC3 feels like Fed's without missiles to me...  Sure, I probably didn't give sfc3 enough of a chance, but then again... I am un-certain as to what is different about it to give it another chance. 

EAW and OP on the other hand have just been re-installed and I actually will have some time to play... So... I guess I will go see what all the fuss is over in the Dnya 2 area.

GE-Raven

[Ravok]

 Raven i have flown against you on game spy, And yes sir you are a gorn at heart.
 And a darn good one too.

[FPF-DieHard]

I tried, I installed GAW and Unity.   Fooled around under fake names.  I just don't "get" it.  Nothing wrong with the game, just not my cup of tee.  I'm a SFBer (and a Fed, who'd of thunk it?) and removing those aspects of the game took away too much IMHO.

That said, I feel D3 is greatly superior to D2.  I wish we had fleeting in D2 

[AdmWaterTiger-11thFleet-]

I tried, I installed GAW and Unity.   Fooled around under fake names.  I just don't "get" it.  Nothing wrong with the game, just not my cup of tee.  I'm a SFBer (and a Fed, who'd of thunk it?) and removing those aspects of the game took away too much IMHO.

That said, I feel D3 is greatly superior to D2.  I wish we had fleeting in D2 

Diehard, i never recommend hitting a Dyna first thing for SFC3. It will frustrate you to know end, man.

Best place is GameSpy for initial training with someone that won';t make you feel like an idiot for not knowing where to start and what different refits do to the ship, its movements, mass, effects.

If your ever up for it, I really love teaching SFC3 to EAW folks. I love them both and there are a lot of similarities that many nOObs to SFC3 miss unless explained.

GSA anytime. PM or e-mail me.

<S>

WaterTiger

[KBF-Dogmatix_XC]

The KBF and XC fleets (both of which I'm a member) both have players who do both D2 and D3.  The KBF has a far larger number of members who don't play SFC3 and probably won't.


I personally prefer SFC2/OP over SFC3, but the modding community in SFC3/D3 has made the game a heck of a lot more fun that it was in the first months of SFC3.  I was one who pre-ordered SFC3 and was very interested in it's release.  What we ended up with was disappointing to say the least.  When it first came out and played it for about two months off and on, dropped it and didn't pick it back up again for about 18 months or so.  What I came back to was much better than when I left, but it still doesn't hold my attention the way SFC2/OP does.


I think that with a few minor exceptions, the gap is bridged about as much as it's going to be.  The people who still play SFC2/OP and don't play SFC3 are that way for a reason.  I'd imagine most are at least familiar with SFC3 and what it has to offer and just aren't incredibly interested.  By the same token, those that came to the SFC series with the advent of SFC3 might not be all that interested in the kind of game SFC2/OP is.


I think a project like LB5 is the perfect opportunity for those riding the fence to jump off and try either side that they haven't yet tried.

[Fluf]

True, the actual dynaverse and server kit is much nicer and has some features that I really like in the D3.  Fleeting, being able to just right click on another players name in your race and know exactly what hex he is in.

I also like these things in SFC3:

Officers and level ups ( if controlled )
Refit screen - like SFC1 - being able to refit your starship to your flying style or the mission you are doing is a great feature.  We have this in the D2, its called "buy another ship" .  Ugh
Reverse- very nice feature, especially when you are 0.1 from a large object, like a planet!
Warp Im still debating.  I like the ability to do it, but the lack of finishing a real PvP battle, because the other guy just simply Warps off is a game killer.
Real Cloak= make the Roms a real fighting force and adds to a very tactical game.
Modability - the game was made for modders, and allows you to do so much its great.

What I dont like about SFC3
Lack of seeking weapons and true fighters (Nanner will hate me!  )
4 shields- yuck, although Ive gotten used to it
No ECM/ECCM - Angular velocity just sucks, it becomes a who can turn the fastest and shoot, with the best angle.
No real power management- 3 slider bars just doesnt get it.  I like to micro manage.

My biggest complaint about SFC3 was the lack of tactical battles like in EAW and OP.  You basically went in, flew around for a bit and hoped you would get the kill shot on your opponent. The actually PvP games rarely last 5 mins and most end in less than 3 mins.  Granted there are still tactical strategies you must use to overcome and opponent, but it is not like a "naval" battle which requires thinking ahead 2 or 3 turns in the game, like in the D2.

One of the things we did in the Battlezone Mod, was increase, shield strength, armor and hull hitpoints, in order to make the games last longer, and thus be a little more tactical in nature. We have increased average PvP times to 20 mins and have had some 30 min battles.  Thus, you really do have to think about things for more than 2 or 3 turns in the game.  Litterbox 5 is using the basis of this mod for the SFC3 side of the campaign, with even some more armor balancing and a increase in hull hitpoints, in order to make the game even more tactical.  I really do believe alot of you D2 guys will like the feel of it a little more, and would hope you give it a try.

[KBF-Dogmatix_XC]

Actually WaterTiger it probably is true.  I doubt any of the D2 players that tried SFC3 when it first came out and hated it will ever try it again.  I spent and hour on MSN with Diehard last night, and he will never play the game again.  Same with Chuut Ritt.  He played SFC3 when it first came out on LB1 for about and hour, hated it and threw away the disc.

Most of the D2 players that tried the game and liked it either stayed or play both.  Trying to convert the hardcore SFBers is not possible. They will never like the game and I dont intend to make them try.  All I can do is ask them to give it one more shot.

As for the D3 players, and from the style of mods I have seen over there, I doubt many if any would try to play OP.  It is a much slower game, and much harder to play, and I dont think it would hold their attention for any amount of time.  Hell they complain now if they cant get a one shot kill, or if a mission goes over 3 mins and doesnt pay out 10K lol.  I dont think they could adapt to PvP that might take an hour of real tactics and having to think 3 moves ahead, much less missions that only pay 300 to 500PP. 

Bottom line is they are 2 different games.  I enjoy them both.  Some people will not like one or the other.

I think you're pretty much right on there, Fluffy...


To me, SFC3/D3 is more of a twitch-fest and it's unlikely that the SFC2/OP/D2 holdout crowd are going to find that very appealing.  I can't think of too many D3 PvP matches that I've heard of that have gone and hour plus as is relatively common in SFC2 play.  The prestige won per mission is all relative...you tend to not pay 60K for a BCH in D2, either...though maybe you should....heheh...but that's another conversation.  Anyway...the first time I earned 60 or 70K for a "war games" mission on D3, let's just say I was a bit surprised...lol.   

[KBF-Dogmatix_XC]

I tried, I installed GAW and Unity.   Fooled around under fake names.  I just don't "get" it.  Nothing wrong with the game, just not my cup of tee.  I'm a SFBer (and a Fed, who'd of thunk it?) and removing those aspects of the game took away too much IMHO.

That said, I feel D3 is greatly superior to D2.  I wish we had fleeting in D2 

That's a good point, DH....there are aspects of D3 that are superior.  However, the actual "fleeting" aspect seems to often be discouraged for one reason or another.  Most often, I hear it's a bad idea because it causes people to get locked up/ghosted.  The one cool feature that I like, though...is the ability to join in the battle in a given hex.  It gives you a better idea who and what you're up against going in.

[AdmWaterTiger-11thFleet-]

It's about the modders choice these days ... BZ and Near Distant Future and Dominion Wars to an extent lately, have taken for long pvp. Armor was brought up along with hull hit points.

Missions generally pay in reflection to ship pricing.

Of late, Cozbo (lead modder) for Unity and I have been in a struggle over this ... CaptainKoraH's TNZ played hard and fast; pvp central. Hull hit points were relatively low, as were the mission payouts. KoraH's TNZ played more like the original game, except with more ships.

Some like that, some don't. Last Unity V3.0 (V531) we up'ed the armor, shields and hit points 10% across the board, and this next round, we will take one further step from KoraH's TNZ vision and bring it up a notch more.

V531 changed modding to an extent and made balancing even more of a challenge. ThePelican and Unity, Nanner, BattleZone -- we all make adjustments.

I once critisized KoraH and ThePelican for being "Dr. Frankenstien's" and never leaving the mods alone from one campaign to the next. Now, being on this end, I see why.

The modding world for SFC3 began with ThePelican and KoraH -- two different styles. Nanner's GAW has adopted a slower, more EAW approach to SFC3. That is his vision.

We all have our modding styles ... map layout, DV differecnes, mission payouts -- in the end it's how the whole mod plays out.

All SFC3 mods are a good thing -- each with a unique vision, style, ships and designs.

But I do NOT recommend learning SFC3 on a Dyna! It will leave you wanting to bust the CD. Spend two weeks in GSA and learning the refit styles and the basics, then go to a Dyna.

<S>

WaterTiger

[FPF-DieHard]

It's about the modders choice these days ... BZ and Near Distant Future and Dominion Wars to an extent latley, have taken for long pvp. Armor was brought up along with hull hit points.

Question, was this done to emulate the fast ship combat from the TNG era?  Ships seemed to explode a lot quicker on DS9.

SFB emulated TOS, ship battles were slower on that show.

[The Pelican]

I have always tried to build DomWars to play to the strengths of the SFC3 game. Examples, the Refit System, I re-built it from scratch to give the player even more choice. In battle, you do far less micro-management in SFC3, it's all about your ability to pilot that ship. The slow pace of SFC2 is just not suitable for SFC3, you do not want your player sitting their waiting for his ship to turn around to fire it's next weapon. In SFC2, that's fine, as you need the time to do your micro-management, the slower pace makes sense. But in SFC3, it just frustrates the player. So I upped the speed and maneouvrability of the ships. In turn making it easier to avoid weapons, which improves the tactical aspect of the game. At the slow pace, you can't avoid weapons anywhere near as easily, you can't get that sudden change in AV.

The lack of fleeting in SFC3 can be attributed to the fact that missions are single player. I did finally find a way to do Fleet Missions though, which have proven quite popular. I just have to fix the damn bugs (well, I'm not exactly doing what the game intended am I?)

I have to start learning OP myself (finally got a copy), as I intend to convert my upcoming mod "Project Timelines" to SFC OP after it's written for SFC3.

[FPF-DieHard]

I have to start learning OP myself (finally got a copy), as I intend to convert my upcoming mod "Project Timelines" to SFC OP after it's written for SFC3.

Okay, my nipples just got hard with this news!!!   Sounds really cool.

The modded "Andros" from SFB fly a lot like SFC3 ships.  We can only hope for the source code . . .

[AdmWaterTiger-11thFleet-]

I have to start learning OP myself (finally got a copy), as I intend to convert my upcoming mod "Project Timelines" to SFC OP after it's written for SFC3.

Okay, my nipples just got hard with this news!!!   Sounds really cool.

The modded "Andros" from SFB fly a lot like SFC3 ships.  We can only hope for the source code . . .

Gorn don't have nipples, do they?

[FPF-DieHard]

I have to start learning OP myself (finally got a copy), as I intend to convert my upcoming mod "Project Timelines" to SFC OP after it's written for SFC3.

Okay, my nipples just got hard with this news!!!   Sounds really cool.

The modded "Andros" from SFB fly a lot like SFC3 ships.  We can only hope for the source code . . .

Gorn don't have nipples, do they?

I'm Andorian.  Did the crack-pipe throw you off?