Topic: Gw2 Post-Mortem  (Read 12289 times)

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Offline Hexx

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2004, 08:42:40 pm »
 :thumbsup: Fluf

Now shouldn't you be getting me a D2 to play on ???

Yer never going to bake those guys all those pies I keep hearing about at this rate....
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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2004, 08:56:31 pm »
Holy sh*t this topic exploded!  Go to one wedding on look WTF happens . . .

OT:  Had a great time at a friend's wedding in the middle of nowhere.   Wedding-factory in upstate NY.  Great food, lots of Captain Morgan and Coke, and I made it home alive!

win, loose, whot fricking cares?   D5D running 15 second faster mission time than a Mohawk, who fricking cares?

Was the server fun?  Yup.   

Later
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Offline Mazeppa

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2004, 01:00:19 am »
1 win or loss in p v p  this mission would be productive for the winning side only and although the losing side ran a mission as well, they reaped no benefit from it.

2 a mission run by a solo player or one with a wing will yield the same DV result.  So although 3 players running solos will show up the same on the statistics as 3 running together, the result of the 3 solos will be greater.

3 mission types may influence the figures.  A planet assault takes longer than a patrol but if a planet can be taken without an encirclement the missions run will be less.  

4 many missions might be used to make a defense, this will make the enemy choose to fly elsewhere.  It achieves its objective yet fewer missions run at a different target while ignoring the heavily defended one making the fewer missions more effective.

I had not considered these issues.  But you are right. 

One other scenario is if you get run out of a hex that is being contested.  You might run a few missions at an alternate area that is not really important in the scheme of things.
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Offline Lepton

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2004, 02:34:28 am »
Wrong again Lepton.  Strategy, timing and using of resourses is critical to any campaign.  Not missions run.    Coalition won SS2 and had fewer missions.  Mirak/Hydran won IDSL in the final minutes before the campaign ended with 7 players vs 10 coaltion players.  Both strategy and timing and command of the game won these, not flipping hexes.

See some of us really enjoy the game for that aspect of it.  Playing as a team for a common goal and trying to out flank you opponent is what I love about this game.  I guess you don t get in on some of the planning and "operations" that have been done over the last 2 years.  Maybe you should try.  I think you would enjoy the game more.

Since the disengagement rule has come about, now PvP, hexflipping, and strategic planning are all important parts of the game.  I enjoy them all.  Maybe you should hang out on Ventrillo or TS with the guys and gals and learn to enjoy the commaradire and actual gamesmanship that happens during these dynas.  Then maybe you would enjoy it more.

You cite two examples.  SS2 was won by coalition due to VCs pertaining to PvP if I remember correctly.  Wasn't around for IDSL so I can't comment.

Let me be clear as to what I am saying.  There is no strategy needed when the separation in mission numbers is so great.  To some degree, I'd like to extend those remarks to other campaigns other than this particular one.  I don't say that strategy never plays a role, but that it need not in this case or likely any other case where there is a significant disparity in mission numbers.

Do I have an issue with hexflipping?  Yes.  Do I think it is boring?  Yes.

Let me also be clear about something else.  To the same degree that people would say that I discount strategy because I don't want to see it is the degree that those who wish to see strategy do see it.  I have no doubt that people are thinking strategically in the execution of their plans, but that strategy would be nothing if there isn't sufficient hexflipping to back it up and in this case where the mission disparity is nearly a quarter of the other side's total missions, I don't think we need to look to strategy for an explanation of who won.

The question then becomes whether there is always such a disparity.  Apparently it is not always the case, but in instances where it is, strategic thinking aside, any old way of proceeding would have been sufficient to win.  In general, I would give very little credence to strategy as an explanation of server success given these conditions.

I however look forward to being proved wrong in the future regarding strategy, but I haven't seen it in this instance.


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Offline Soreyes

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2004, 07:09:32 am »
I don't know what to say there Lepton. I think I can understand where your coming from. It seems to me that people like myself who absolutely SUCK at PvP are slowly being forced from the game.

I'm a hex flipper...... and proud of it. I figure that if I can get a few enemy ships to start chasing me around the map in my CL type ship. I have done my job.


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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2004, 07:35:26 am »

Do I have an issue with hexflipping?  Yes.  Do I think it is boring?  Yes.

It can be.   That's why you BS with your buddies on TS while flying.   Makes hex-flipping much less mind-numbing. 

Besides, anyone looking for PvP can easily find it as the "front" is usually very obvious.

Who'd thunk that Star-castling was the root of all evil . . .


Offline KBF-Dogmatix_XC

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #46 on: June 28, 2004, 12:47:57 pm »
About 3700 missions more generally does the trick.  All AI missions I would assume by definition.  More mouse clicking wins the day.  How exciting!!

Depends where the extra missions were run, not just the fact of extra missions, 3k missions in the top left corner would mean nothing. Coalition ran there missions in Alliance space and not vice versa, has more to do with winning than raw numbers.

Very true, but these post-mortems will point out the the winning side of a campaign has never run fewer missions than the losing side.

I suspect we'll never see a situation where fewer missions win unless one side wastes a lot of missions in areas that mean nothing. 


Dedication and turnout tends to be what wins servers.  One never knows which side is going to be the more dedicated from server to server.  Every now and then, when equal dedication is present, we get a real barn-burner...heheh.


GW2 was fun, though...had a good time.


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Offline Gook

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #47 on: June 28, 2004, 01:45:37 pm »
Lepton

Strategy:

1) the science and art of employing all the resources of a (nation or group of nations) to carry out agreed policies in peace and war

2) The science of art and military command exercised to meet the enemy in combat under advantageous positions

3) the art of employing plans toward achieving a goal.

Definitions from OED

I can say with hand on heart that every campaign I commanded would have been lost without two things, strategy and tactics. To make strategy work you have to have a force willing to achieve that strategy and not flinch from its goal, with above all high morale.

Now from AF onward through CW2-6 and all the servers in between the Kzin, in the form of the KATs NEVER had a numerical advantage of any sort. Whether that was straight Alliance v Coalition or more exotic alliances. IN AF itself we were the least numerous race, The Gorn had twice our numbers, we were seen as an irrelevance and at best a nuisance, the Feds, Klinks and Rommies were the powers in those days followed by the ISC, Hydrans, Lyrans and Gorn with the Kzin last. BY the end of that server we had driven broken the Lyran morale so only Kzinbane and Skyapawa were left, we had created the Farstar county in Gorn territory and were the only race to be threatening 2 capitals simultaneously and thereby being the closest of any race to victory. The Fred's who outnumbered all by a significant margin were forced to stop fighting the Klinks and organise a massive redeployment of forces to  deal with the threat. We didn't run more missions, we had slow drones, we had the fewest people but what we had we used well. We chose where to attack and when. We deployed our limited forces to our best advantage and when we got  to within striking distance we got organised. We had a cab rank system for taking down hexes and when PvP happened our small ships swarmed all over the "Big Guns" sent to hunt us down. We had no way of running more missions than the Feds or the Klinks.

Rogue Jedi. Smaller numbers of Kzin again, but buoyed up in morale after AF. Morale of the Feds was broken and many left the server. Earth and Lyra Fell to the Kzin.

CW3 the Kzin were out numbered 16-1 not only were the great fleets of ISC forced back, but allies who tried to help them, (Rommies , Lyrans and Klinks) were all forced back, this was done because of high morale, sheer bloody mindedness and having a plan.

CW4 only lasted 48 hours, by which time with less numbers we had got in a position to split the Lyrans and the Klinks from each other and were close to a link up with the Hydrans. Forces were used to block and delay while others pursued strategic goals (Hydran link up and Klingon/Lyran decoupling). No extra missions were flown, we just had a plan.

CW5 the pacification war. Still inferior numbers we were targeted by the Klinks (ISC were junior partners despite being "lead race") We got hammered buts stalled the pacifiers for long enough the Feds and Rommies could get themselves together. We Lost Mraa, and got it back again. The Lyrans were lost after ferocious battles in which different strategies were used by both. The Hydrans fell to a suprise attack by Squiggy leading the 69th, who with 2 other pilots took Hydraxx and shifted the BoP. The whole server was seesaw and only when the decision was taken to attack the ISC homeworld and take the battle to enemy  (a strategic decision) did the non pacified eventually win. The Gorn were saved en route, and like it or not espionage played a big part with Rommies infiltrating the Klinks and leaking their plans, I still have those plans all of which fit the definitions given above.

CW5.5, CW5.75, CW5.775, Frigate hell, Feds v klinks CW, CW5.9, CW5.995  and many more. All were won and lost not by number of missions run, but by how those missions were run, and more importantly than everything else, the morale of the people who ran them. They didn't fall apart when the going got tough, they dug in and fought harder.

CW6 probably the height of EAW, two sides very experienced, still a big player base, Strategic battles over Pinky Gen, Kang, Patriach 1 in the west and Musashi, Asgard and Letac in the East. These battles were not fought because people liked the names, but because they were strategic pieces of real estate. The battles in the Cluster were not just because the stars had fancy names, but because of its position on the map, its economic advantages and the VCs. When the final drive on earth came it was to have two prongs, this was found to be inefficient so a strategic decision to move all Kzin forces to the Klink attack route was taken to hasten the end.

In the last game GW2 I have mentioned altready in the thread, the Coalition chose a better strategy than the Alliance and always fought on Alliance territory, so their gains always meant something. The last day Hail Mary, followed a conscious decision by the Alliance to undertake an attack at complete odds with previous strategy (hold the line). To this end they ensured a thourough recon was made, and an attack route was selected. The evening before H Hour missions were run to weaken advance hexes, covered by heavy fighting on the normal front which the coalition were pressing heavily on. They did not notice the weakening and if they did they ignored it as a feint and made the conscious strategic decision to press on with their plan to Hydraxx. The Alliance having recon, and prep just needed suprise which they achieved with a dawn start time. The aim was to reach the Feds, there was an 89 DV shift which had to be made (the hexes to the border), decisions were made about how high to bump hexes and how we went about the strategic aim, on a tactical level. The Coalition made strategic errors (probably unwittingly rather than consciously) by not placing details of what we were up to on Taldren when they realised what it was (comms break down leading to strategic setback) but more importantly chose to attack the line not from their space, but from the Hydran end, unwilling it seems to throw full force at the line and pull off Hydraxx. Even with small forces they could have stopped the attempt as we had to go round a 20DV base we didn't have time to reduce by siege. 3 hexes were continually exposed to this threat, but whether by luck or judgement the real show stopper was not spotted, probably because not many Alliance players even knew there was a base that far south and east to help them. Result 89(ish) well chosen missions netted 76 VCs or many more times the number of VCs achieved through 2 weeks of Intense PvP including capital ship VCs.

So in conclusion its not numbers or missions run, its strategy and Morale that wins a decent Dyna.

I know you disagree, but I disagree with you :)

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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #48 on: June 28, 2004, 02:39:50 pm »

So in conclusion its not numbers or missions run, its strategy and Morale that wins a decent Dyna.


To an extent, yes.  But how could you possibly win when out-missioned by 35%? 

10-15% difference maybe.  Strategy abosulutely makes a huge difference when the number of total misisons is close. 

When the numbers are "close," I absolutely agree with you.

EDIT:  Just noticed in your post you keep referencing "player numbers."   This stat is irrelevant, always has been.   Total Misisons flown is the stat you should be focussing on.

1 Fluf = 10 normal pilots.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2004, 02:44:05 pm by FPF-DieHard »
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Offline KBF-Dogmatix_XC

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #49 on: June 28, 2004, 02:44:28 pm »

So in conclusion its not numbers or missions run, its strategy and Morale that wins a decent Dyna.


To an extent, yes.  But how could you possibly win when out-missioned by 35%? 

10-15% difference maybe.  Strategy abosulutely makes a huge difference when the number of total misisons is close. 

When the numbers are "close," I absolutely agree with you.


I'd agree with that.  I think the one time this occured might have been CW6.
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Offline Gook

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #50 on: June 28, 2004, 03:34:36 pm »

So in conclusion its not numbers or missions run, its strategy and Morale that wins a decent Dyna.


To an extent, yes.  But how could you possibly win when out-missioned by 35%? 

10-15% difference maybe.  Strategy absolutely makes a huge difference when the number of total missions is close. 

When the numbers are "close," I absolutely agree with you.

EDIT:  Just noticed in your post you keep referencing "player numbers."   This stat is irrelevant, always has been.   Total missions flown is the stat you should be focussing on.

1 Fluf = 10 normal pilots.

What can I say, except in CW6 when the Fed Alliance was outmissioned (largely because of fleet withdrawl following a morale collapse), The numbers of kzin  could usually be counted on two hands (CW4 and 6 we had a few more), and whether counting nutters or otherwise, we simply could not out mission the "Big 3" of Fed/Klinks/Rommies, it was tens v hundreds, even with 10 nutters 24/7 you can't make up that many missions. We tended to wipe out enemy gains and make gains of our own and fight in enemy space, not ours. Deploy away from home quickly, concentrate the mind of the enemy on his own patch and take it from there. Demoralisation being the key, it was easier for our enemies to fight elsewhere and so they did. In doing so they would surrender the Strategic initiative.

All I am saying is 100 well chosen missions are better than 1,000 Ill chosen ones, and the proof is in the history.

BTW Fluff and the rest of KOTH arrived for CW6, before then we had a Dunzel, and that was about it the rest including myself were in the very committed bracket (though once or twice I was a nutter too).

Could have been Magic I suppose ;)

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Offline Lepton

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #51 on: June 28, 2004, 03:40:03 pm »
Gook,

While I appreciate the history lesson, none of what you say addresses my point.  The point is given a large mission number gap no strategy is necessary.  You seem to cite the Kzins being outnumbered as some evidence of how less missions could equal victory or something to that effect.  That is a false analogy, but it may not be what you are intending to say.  I never said strategy can't play a role in the D2, but I do think it (strategy) is most easily defeated by running more missions than your opponent, and one would have to almost by definition unless there were a set of victory conditions or a server setup that would allow the converse. So I would say that whenever there is a substantial gap, strategy doesn't matter.  I'd really like to see mission totals for all these other servers.  It would be interesting to see those stats and how they compare to one another.

And don't get me started on morale which is merely a twisted way of saying who is willing to plug away endlessly on the AI for hours on end.  I mean, I have seen some D2 burnouts in my time here, and people just relentlessly on servers and I ask myself, "For what??  For what??".  Do we really enjoy smacking around the AI that much??  In my mind, this is what wins servers.  A dedicated group of people who want nothing more than to mouse click.

A harsh assessment, I agree, but I think the D2 system is severely flawed when people can become discouraged from playing based upon a system that often rewards being online as much as possible and/or having as much of a numbers disadvantage as possible either over the life of the server or at particular times of the day.


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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #52 on: June 28, 2004, 03:46:36 pm »

All I am saying is 100 well chosen missions are better than 1,000 Ill chosen ones, and the proof is in the history.



Not 1,000.  Maybe 115  :lol:
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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #53 on: June 28, 2004, 03:51:45 pm »
Gook,

While I appreciate the history lesson, none of what you say addresses my point.   . . . . .

He's a lawyer, his carreer is all about talking a lot without actually addressing the issue  :rofl:
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Offline Gook

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #54 on: June 28, 2004, 03:56:55 pm »
Gook,

While I appreciate the history lesson, none of what you say addresses my point.  The point is given a large mission number gap no strategy is necessary.  You seem to cite the Kzins being outnumbered as some evidence of how less missions could equal victory or something to that effect.  That is a false analogy, but it may not be what you are intending to say.  I never said strategy can't play a role in the D2, but I do think it (strategy) is most easily defeated by running more missions than your opponent, and one would have to almost by definition unless there were a set of victory conditions or a server setup that would allow the converse. So I would say that whenever there is a substantial gap, strategy doesn't matter.  I'd really like to see mission totals for all these other servers.  It would be interesting to see those stats and how they compare to one another.

And don't get me started on morale which is merely a twisted way of saying who is willing to plug away endlessly on the AI for hours on end.  I mean, I have seen some D2 burnouts in my time here, and people just relentlessly on servers and I ask myself, "For what??  For what??".  Do we really enjoy smacking around the AI that much??  In my mind, this is what wins servers.  A dedicated group of people who want nothing more than to mouse click.

A harsh assessment, I agree, but I think the D2 system is severely flawed when people can become discouraged from playing based upon a system that often rewards being online as much as possible and/or having as much of a numbers disadvantage as possible either over the life of the server or at particular times of the day.

Well Like I said we disagree, and must agree that we disagree :)

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Offline Lepton

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #55 on: June 28, 2004, 03:58:48 pm »
Further, I have absolutely no idea of server set-ups for this history lesson.  I would assume this great Kzin history you speak of was also the trigger for the entire mission times, CnC, OoB, yada-yada-yada, essentially everything that has come on after to balance out hex-flipping nonsense, as it seems the most attention I have seen on these issues has been focused on drone races and the Kzin in particular.  So I take that as further evidence of the mouse-clicking hypothesis.


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Offline Gook

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #56 on: June 28, 2004, 04:00:03 pm »
Gook,

While I appreciate the history lesson, none of what you say addresses my point.   . . . . .

He's a lawyer, his carreer is all about talking a lot without actually addressing the issue  :rofl:

Really, I rather thought I had, but what you say about lawyers really can't be denied.

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Offline KBF-Crim

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #57 on: June 28, 2004, 04:08:15 pm »
Further, I have absolutely no idea of server set-ups for this history lesson.  I would assume this great Kzin history you speak of was also the trigger for the entire mission times, CnC, OoB, yada-yada-yada, essentially everything that has come on after to balance out hex-flipping nonsense, as it seems the most attention I have seen on these issues has been focused on drone races and the Kzin in particular.  So I take that as further evidence of the mouse-clicking hypothesis.

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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #58 on: June 28, 2004, 04:13:15 pm »
Oh come on Crim,we need the Lepton's of this world.  Dissenting opinions help us grow and keep us honest.

Was funny though <snicker>
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Offline Gook

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #59 on: June 28, 2004, 04:42:14 pm »
Further, I have absolutely no idea of server set-ups for this history lesson.  I would assume this great Kzin history you speak of was also the trigger for the entire mission times, CnC, OoB, yada-yada-yada, essentially everything that has come on after to balance out hex-flipping nonsense, as it seems the most attention I have seen on these issues has been focused on drone races and the Kzin in particular.  So I take that as further evidence of the mouse-clicking hypothesis.

The reason for the "History Lesson" was you called for examples of strategy in D2.

The Issues you mention have been with us for as long as the game.

If people thought the game was fine and there were no issues there would be no biatching about them. I got fed up of the moans from what seemed to be a relatively small bunch, and was trying to find out what was really wanted. Once we know whether is a problem even we can address it, if there is none we can do nothing.

I at least still find the game (d2wise) enjoyable in the main, and do not wish to cast it aside in a form of Carthaginian peace (salting the ground etc.). There is no reason why you should not set up your GSA based campaign based around scenarios, and I believe Max is calling for volunteers for just such an enterprise. But I like the 24/7 global set up a Dyna gives and when prime time is over, it still carries on around the world while those in the hallowed precepts of EST to PT are slumbering in their beds. Just a personal preference, just as yours is for your kind of game. No reason why the two should not coexist, and people play both if they want to, and just one if that is their desire.

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