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Topic: Gw2 Post-Mortem  (Read 12347 times)

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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Gw2 Post-Mortem
« on: June 26, 2004, 11:45:44 pm »
Lifetime PP Alliance is 4,219,377
Lifetime PP Coalition is  5,726,959

Alliance missions flown: 10,910
Coalition missions flown: 14,666

Total Players Alliance: 104
Total Players Coalition: 96

Sorry it took so long to get this posted.   DarkElf has been hard to track down.
Who'd thunk that Star-castling was the root of all evil . . .


Offline Lepton

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2004, 01:25:09 am »
About 3700 missions more generally does the trick.  All AI missions I would assume by definition.  More mouse clicking wins the day.  How exciting!!


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Offline KBF-Crim

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2004, 01:49:56 am »
   :lame: 

Offline zilly

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2004, 01:59:17 am »
About 3700 missions more generally does the trick.  All AI missions I would assume by definition.  More mouse clicking wins the day.  How exciting!!

Ooof, that is some subtle sarcasm there Lepton. Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel about it!
 ::)

Offline Max Power

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2004, 02:41:01 am »
I don't think that Lepton is complaining about the coalition specifically, but about how D2 is done in general. Really, why is it important how fast you are able to do missions?

Offline KAT Chuut-Ritt

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2004, 02:58:57 am »
One of the keys is knowing how to stop the fast hex flipping, trust me there are ways.  Am I goona share them?....No   :rofl: .  Lets just say if anyone has an interest in this do your reasearch  Hint: look up something posted way way back by KAT Tempest.

Offline FPF-AJTK

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2004, 07:39:07 am »
Lifetime PP Alliance is 4,219,377
Lifetime PP Coalition is  5,726,959

Alliance missions flown: 10,910
Coalition missions flown: 14,666

Total Players Alliance: 104
Total Players Coalition: 96

Sorry it took so long to get this posted.   DarkElf has been hard to track down.

Well, as a n00b Hydran on GW2 who ended up with aboot 100K pp(not to mention about 35K more lost in combat...), Id have to say that if we had 8 more Fricking GOOD GUY players, and they still ran 3700 more missions, even in droners, then the micro-brains and hair-balls musta wanted to win more.

If I could run a patrol mission and kill 3 AI's inside of 7 minutes in a CHA, then a real Hydran like t00l was probably doin it alot faster than that.  Granted, a D5D can probably do it in under 3 minutes, so lets discount about half the missions, lets call it 1850 more they flew.

They still wanted it more. Of course, we DID loose several KEY players after the dreaded server reset...

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Offline GDA-Agave

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2004, 09:00:44 am »
Alright, guys.   Let's not start with all the common complaints that we hear after a server.   If you've played on at least 2 servers then you know about the hex-munching abilities of certain races over others, and how this affects a VC hex acquisition type server.   You also know about how the player count is NEVER going to be equal.   Yes, I will admit that it was a shame that the alliance lost several pilots more than the coalition did over the restart.   Do we know if that would have changed how the server came out.  NO.

I know I'm kinda pissing on your sarcastic parade here, but it was a well fought server on both sides.   The coalition uses it weapons well, and had a pilot turnout that was......well......hard to believe at times.   As for the alliance, I salute those pilots who hung in there and fought tooth and nail for every hex, and of course devised and completed the hydran line to the Federation.   Bastards.   Well done.   I've been kicking myself a lot lately since I was one of the coalition no-shows for the last couple of days.

One last thought, if you really hated how the droner allowed some hex-munching on the coalition part in GW2, WELL, you can have your revenge in GW3.   Since the alliance empires for GW3 will be the Mirak and Feds, you'll have all the hex-munchers you could ever want to fly at your disposal.   Enjoy, I'll be on the other side trying to stop you.   Will I blame you for flying them, NO.  Will I be trying to kill you, ABSOLUTELY EVERY TIME.   Seeya then.

Sorry to interrupt.   :soap: done.

Agave


P.S.  Well done, Coalition.   Less pilots logged in, and 3600 more misions run.  AWESOME.  :notworthy:
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Offline Gook

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2004, 09:05:31 am »
About 3700 missions more generally does the trick.  All AI missions I would assume by definition.  More mouse clicking wins the day.  How exciting!!

Depends where the extra missions were run, not just the fact of extra missions, 3k missions in the top left corner would mean nothing. Coalition ran there missions in Alliance space and not vice versa, has more to do with winning than raw numbers.
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Offline KBFLordKrueg

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2004, 11:29:10 am »
Lifetime PP Alliance is 4,219,377
Lifetime PP Coalition is  5,726,959

Alliance missions flown: 10,910
Coalition missions flown: 14,666

Total Players Alliance: 104
Total Players Coalition: 96

Sorry it took so long to get this posted.   DarkElf has been hard to track down.

I wonder if this is taking into account the fact that at least half the Coalition players had both Klingon and Lyran accounts. And for those whining about the droners still, remember we didn't get the D5D until the server was approx half over. And I would say the majority of the Coalition players in general weren't flying droners anyway.
I myself changed back and forth a few times. Got all but one PvP kill in something other than a droner.
I'm sure we won't hear the whining about droners on GW3.
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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2004, 11:46:01 am »
. . .  we didn't get the D5D until the server was approx half over.

Do I have to give you a lesson in Klingon FYAs?  Please know what you are talking about when posting stuff like that.    :rofl:

The D5D was available in 2270 which was the second day of the server.

And I would say the majority of the Coalition players in general weren't flying droners anyway.

 :lol:


EDIT:  Just pulling your chain Krueg, you I respect greatly, just need to correct some factual errors in your post.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2004, 12:00:19 pm by FPF-DieHard »
Who'd thunk that Star-castling was the root of all evil . . .


Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2004, 11:47:45 am »

I wonder if this is taking into account the fact that at least half the Coalition players had both Klingon and Lyran accounts.


Yup, don't count the player numbers, they are a bit misleading.   Same for the Allinace as I know at least 20 Hydrans had LDR account which were never used.

Count missions flown and total PP, the total number of players itself is meaningless.
Who'd thunk that Star-castling was the root of all evil . . .


Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2004, 12:05:01 pm »
About 3700 missions more generally does the trick.  All AI missions I would assume by definition.  More mouse clicking wins the day.  How exciting!!

Depends where the extra missions were run, not just the fact of extra missions, 3k missions in the top left corner would mean nothing. Coalition ran there missions in Alliance space and not vice versa, has more to do with winning than raw numbers.

Very true, but these post-mortems will point out the the winning side of a campaign has never run fewer missions than the losing side.
Who'd thunk that Star-castling was the root of all evil . . .


Offline FVA_C_ Blade_ XC

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2004, 12:07:34 pm »
The best way to stop fast hex flippers is to kill them.

They are running fast missions becuase they are in hex flipping boats,run some pvp boats in there and viola muncjing stopped.
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Offline KBFLordKrueg

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2004, 12:10:39 pm »
. . .  we didn't get the D5D until the server was approx half over.

Do I have to give you a lesson in Klingon FYAs?  Please know what you are talking about when posting stuff like that.    :rofl:

The D5D was available in 2270 which was the second day of the server.

And I would say the majority of the Coalition players in general weren't flying droners anyway.

 :lol:


EDIT:  Just pulling your chain Krueg, you I respect greatly, just need to correct some factual errors in your post.

Was it? I didn't realize it came out so early. Excuse me if I was incorrect. Flew one for one day, on a day when there were hardly any Alliance on to challenge. The only other droner I few was the DWD, again only on a couple short occasions. I don't spend hours looking over such details in the shiplist such as "when do we get XXship?" I usually simply make due with what we have. Therefore, obviously I'm not as knowledgeable in the FYA on the ships as some.
Thanks for noticing my error DH.
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Offline Durin

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2004, 12:24:35 pm »
I had a blast even if I was a "Star-castling" Tw%t"   :woot:

Offline Father Ted

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2004, 12:38:47 pm »
It was a fun ride, irregardless of the outcome. Got stupid once or twice, but killed far more Klink and Lyran ships than got me. ;)

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Offline Lepton

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2004, 01:27:25 pm »
To clarify my remarks, no indictment of any side intended, but when it comes down to it, it is just who runs more missions that wins and since those extra missions are all vs the AI by definition and since almost all AI missions are a fair d'accompli, more mouse clicking wins the day.  Pretty silly all around no matter what side wins.  Might as well just pick two people to enter a pen clicking race and see who gives up first.

There's got to be a better way than this to run a "competitive" campaign.


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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2004, 02:44:44 pm »
It would have been nice if we had some more numbers to even things out, but it was still a fun server, albeit frustrating at times.

GG all.  :thumbsup:

Offline Gook

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2004, 02:56:25 pm »
About 3700 missions more generally does the trick.  All AI missions I would assume by definition.  More mouse clicking wins the day.  How exciting!!

Depends where the extra missions were run, not just the fact of extra missions, 3k missions in the top left corner would mean nothing. Coalition ran there missions in Alliance space and not vice versa, has more to do with winning than raw numbers.

Very true, but these post-mortems will point out the the winning side of a campaign has never run fewer missions than the losing side.

89 missions or thereabouts netted 76 (orwhatever) VCs not a bad return. It shows that the purpose of the mission is very important, not just quantity, but the quality of the missions run (Strategy wise).

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Offline Durin

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2004, 03:18:43 pm »
To clarify my remarks, no indictment of any side intended, but when it comes down to it, it is just who runs more missions that wins and since those extra missions are all vs the AI by definition and since almost all AI missions are a fair d'accompli, more mouse clicking wins the day.  Pretty silly all around no matter what side wins.  Might as well just pick two people to enter a pen clicking race and see who gives up first.

There's got to be a better way than this to run a "competitive" campaign.


Wow all I need is this?

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Offline Lepton

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2004, 03:26:48 pm »
There is no strategy. No offense to the lead planners for either side, but more missions is more missions. If 3700 missions are deployed on the map in any sensible way, that side wins.  People aren't going to run missions that don't support VCs as VC conditions are usually sensible and transparent.  Capture bases, capture planets.  People want to do this anyway as it extends supply lines and adds supply nodes as well as making simple sense.

It would be one thing if mission numbers and/or server number were more equal, then I could see making a strategic claim, but 3700 is alot of missions.  I mean, by definition the side that takes more hexes has to have run more missions.  That is a given.  As far as I can tell, this is way more missions than would be needed to take the territory that was taken on this server, so what strategy can be pointed to?


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Offline Hexx

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2004, 03:31:04 pm »
Actually Lepton I think there's about as much strategy as one can reasonably expect from any sort of game we're playing now. What else would you suggest?
All I can think of is A) hex flipping
                          B)Having the whole thing center around PvP, which penalizes those players and/or
                             races that aren't as good at it.

 
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Offline KAT Chuut-Ritt

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2004, 04:11:08 pm »


Very true, but these post-mortems will point out the the winning side of a campaign has never run fewer missions than the losing side.

I think there are at least 2 cases when this didn't hold true.  Storm Seasons I and II just going from memory here, so if you have data that shows otherwise please share.

However, in both those cases the percentage differential was not so great.

Offline KBF-Crim

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2004, 04:32:02 pm »
To clarify my remarks, no indictment of any side intended, but when it comes down to it, it is just who runs more missions that wins and since those extra missions are all vs the AI by definition and since almost all AI missions are a fair d'accompli, more mouse clicking wins the day.  Pretty silly all around no matter what side wins.  Might as well just pick two people to enter a pen clicking race and see who gives up first.

There's got to be a better way than this to run a "competitive" campaign.

You realise we're talking a difference of only 11 missions per hour....or aprox one extra mission every six minutes...

I often wonder....what is your point?

If you hate it so much...why play at all? :-\

Offline [KBF]MuadDib

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2004, 04:38:14 pm »
. . .  we didn't get the D5D until the server was approx half over.

Do I have to give you a lesson in Klingon FYAs?  Please know what you are talking about when posting stuff like that.    :rofl:

The D5D was available in 2270 which was the second day of the server.

And I would say the majority of the Coalition players in general weren't flying droners anyway.

 :lol:


EDIT:  Just pulling your chain Krueg, you I respect greatly, just need to correct some factual errors in your post.

Was it? I didn't realize it came out so early. Excuse me if I was incorrect. Flew one for one day, on a day when there were hardly any Alliance on to challenge. The only other droner I few was the DWD, again only on a couple short occasions. I don't spend hours looking over such details in the shiplist such as "when do we get XXship?" I usually simply make due with what we have. Therefore, obviously I'm not as knowledgeable in the FYA on the ships as some.
Thanks for noticing my error DH.

flying a hydran LM...i was flipping hexes faster than the d5d could do it...at least on GW2 during the "restart test again" period...most missions were 3-4 minutes in a d5d...in the LM i was completing them in under 3 minutes...unless i got the 1 on 1 sceanario...then it usually wasnt more than 2 minutes for the d5d...but that mission didnt come up very often...this was one of the reasons i chose to fly lyran through the last half of GW2...i could continue with the same mission times and actually fly something that could stand up  to a PvP fight...and alot of alliance folk didnt see Futar coming...had one even alt out on me when he took another hard hit to his rear...shame that this nonsense seems to insue during a game when you "think" alting out is normal...when you are getting your arse kicked by someone you think is a nOOb!!!
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Offline zilly

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2004, 04:38:45 pm »
To clarify my remarks, no indictment of any side intended, but when it comes down to it, it is just who runs more missions that wins and since those extra missions are all vs the AI by definition and since almost all AI missions are a fair d'accompli, more mouse clicking wins the day.  Pretty silly all around no matter what side wins.  Might as well just pick two people to enter a pen clicking race and see who gives up first.

There's got to be a better way than this to run a "competitive" campaign.

You realise we're talking a difference of only 11 missions per hour....or aprox one extra mission every six minutes...

I often wonder....what is your point?

If you hate it so much...why play at all? :-\

What crim said.

Offline kbf-jd

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2004, 04:39:02 pm »
There is no strategy. No offense to the lead planners for either side, but more missions is more missions. If 3700 missions are deployed on the map in any sensible way, that side wins.  People aren't going to run missions that don't support VCs as VC conditions are usually sensible and transparent.  Capture bases, capture planets.  People want to do this anyway as it extends supply lines and adds supply nodes as well as making simple sense.

It would be one thing if mission numbers and/or server number were more equal, then I could see making a strategic claim, but 3700 is alot of missions.  I mean, by definition the side that takes more hexes has to have run more missions.  That is a given.  As far as I can tell, this is way more missions than would be needed to take the territory that was taken on this server, so what strategy can be pointed to?

Easy,  It's not just the VP hexes, but the supply lines.  Because you have to have a LOS and keep it to collect points.  We often has our LOS cut and had to take them back and repair them.

The only exception was the "hail Mary".  They only needed to run 86 missions to get the objective, but even then, I bet they had to run closer to 300, because of opposition and the fact that we kept cutting the LOS, while vastly out numbered...(Scockfoot used to call this, "When out numbered, hit them where they ain't.")  There was even that last "server burp" that caused more confusion.

You fail to see strategy in D2 because you DO NOT WISH TO SEE IT.

When everyone else around you sees something you cannot, it's a good idea to step back and think about why...

The alliance put together a plan and made it work for hail Mary, that's called strategy, like it or not.

Likewise, I saw the alliance take a "just hex flipping" approach on one of the SS servers. it did not work, because the collation fought for the specific hexes that counted.  And that made the difference...

jd

Offline KAT Chuut-Ritt

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2004, 05:11:33 pm »
Additionally, strategy is being able to dictate where the fighting occurs by intelligent use of assets available.  Sometimes this is through hex flipping, sometimes its by use of major fleet assests and the heavy iron, sometimes its by diversions, sometimes deepstrikes. 

Planning has 3 major aspects.

1 Organization

2 Timing

3 Resources

If all are used in conjunction, the impact can be greater than a larger force using pure hex flipping.

Offline FPF-AJTK

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2004, 06:03:59 pm »
Not sure if you guys think I was whining about droners in D5D's but if I am the one your talking about, please re-read my post without the crap-brown colored glasses you put on as soon as you saw D5D, rofl!

I was saying that the fact that you were using D5D's was not that big a deal. Indeed, I said that even I, a Hydran n00b was able to do a 3 ship ai mission in about 7 minutes, and that 762 or a similar skilled Hydran pilot could do it alot faster. So I was saying that the droners didnt make that much of a difference, just that you guys wanted to win more than we did.

Re-read it without the automatic chip on the bumpy-dome and you will see I was not dissing the Coalition, I was dissing the Alliance side, I.E, US!

Crim, 11 missions an hour equals a 22 hex gain in 20 hours, lol, assuming straight hex-flipping with no PvP. Just FYI.  :lol:

Anyways, I have ZERO problem with anyone flying whatever ship they want, which is why I have been rather sceptical of the DIP list and other methods being brought up to "even hex flipping out" or to restrict "specialty ships."  As you have seen in my posts, IMHO you know what race you are picking, what strengths and weaknesses they have, so choose wisely.

Yeah, every time I fought a D5D or DWD I was thinking "Man, I cant WAIT until GW3 and my CAD+, or a CB, etc."

I had an awesome time on GW2 and have no complaints about anything, except Doomstone telling me starcastling was cheating, rofl.  :screwloose:
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Offline Mazeppa

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2004, 06:36:06 pm »
. . .  we didn't get the D5D until the server was approx half over.

Do I have to give you a lesson in Klingon FYAs?  Please know what you are talking about when posting stuff like that.    :rofl:

The D5D was available in 2270 which was the second day of the server.

And I would say the majority of the Coalition players in general weren't flying droners anyway.

 :lol:


EDIT:  Just pulling your chain Krueg, you I respect greatly, just need to correct some factual errors in your post.

It may have been available, but I did not see it in the shipyard for a time. 

We learned early that it was pretty stupid to try and face a Hydran in a drone boat.  I took a D6D the first day.  Mind you, I usually kill at least two unsuspecting people who do not fear the D6D before I move up to another ship.  Not this server.  I got run off hexes three time and then blown up.  Hydrans have too much point defense.  Hornet fighters sneer at scatterpacks.   

I am sure some people may think that there were a bunch of hex-munchers out there, but that is really not the case.  Drone boats either flew with a wing, or tried to run misions UNDER people.  Even then, there were no 2 minute missions.  the AI were prety tough to kill.  I know of one AI mission where a Hydran ship and its fighters took a 12 missile barrage, and all the missiles got killed.  Very disconcerting, if you have just tractored a Hydran, and he yawns at your best effort.  And is an AI.  And about to unoad Hellbores

I got in a PvP ship as soon as I could, and stayed there.  Mission times were not great, but we were effective.
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Offline Soreyes

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2004, 06:59:10 pm »
Have to agree with Mazeppa there. Before My Computer burned up and I could not Play any more on G2. I found that any time I came across eather a D6D or a D5D, They were always winged up with another player. It never got me mad, because that's just a very smart way to play.

Hat's off to the Coalition :rwoot:  They had a game plan and stuck with it.


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Offline Lepton

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2004, 07:31:04 pm »
To clarify my remarks, no indictment of any side intended, but when it comes down to it, it is just who runs more missions that wins and since those extra missions are all vs the AI by definition and since almost all AI missions are a fair d'accompli, more mouse clicking wins the day.  Pretty silly all around no matter what side wins.  Might as well just pick two people to enter a pen clicking race and see who gives up first.

There's got to be a better way than this to run a "competitive" campaign.

You realise we're talking a difference of only 11 missions per hour....or aprox one extra mission every six minutes...

I often wonder....what is your point?

If you hate it so much...why play at all? :-\

Where are you getting this information to make this numeric assessment? Are you dividing the total number of missions by the amount of time the server was up??  What are you using for a standard mission time?  If we even assume what you say is true on average, which I don't at this point, those missions are not likely to be evenly distributed over the time the server was up.  The situation becomes even worse if we assume a relative equality in mission times.  Assuming 6 minute mission time that would be like 22,200 minutes or 370 hours additional server time, conservatively. No small sum.  It all may seem inconsequential when spread out over the life of a server, but it does not translate into a mission rate per hour as far as I am concerned as people are not automotons that are logged on 24 hours a day playing at a constant rate.

Be that as it may, my point is simple.  The winning side need only play more missions to win, first by definition, second by design or consequence of server numbers or hours.  Victory is no victory when all those missions are by definition against the AI.  It's mouse-clicking.

I don't hate it whatever you mean by that. I enjoy SFC in small doses.  If there is anything I hate about D2 campaigns is the repetitiveness of participating in one.  I'm not going to play the "I had fun" game here.  I am offering an objective assessment. To me, the interpretation is clear from my point of view.


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Offline Lepton

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2004, 07:41:55 pm »


Very true, but these post-mortems will point out the the winning side of a campaign has never run fewer missions than the losing side.

I think there are at least 2 cases when this didn't hold true.  Storm Seasons I and II just going from memory here, so if you have data that shows otherwise please share.

However, in both those cases the percentage differential was not so great.

Chuut, that is physically impossible nearly as I can tell.  The winning side must run more missions than the opposition, unless the losing side spent a good deal of time running missions in hexes that were already maxed out or had no effect on VC goals. To get the DV shift, one has to by definition run more mission in that hex than the opposition.   What other classes could we put these extra missions into expect either involved in active DV shifts or irrelevant to them and aren't they likely to be 95% in the active DV shift category??


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Offline FireSoul

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2004, 07:43:20 pm »
Lepton,

May I remind you that the Alliance managed the LOS to the Federation? How many missions was required to do this 1-time needed objective compared to the total # of missions run on the server?


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Offline Green

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2004, 07:47:46 pm »
Though I agree w/ most of the points (above) you've made Lepton, I have to agree w/ chuut that the winning side can win with fewer missions run.  All that is required is that the missions they run are done in the hexes (or against humans) that matter in terms of VCs.

It isn't common (as far as I can recall), but it does happen.

Offline Lepton

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2004, 07:58:57 pm »
Additionally, strategy is being able to dictate where the fighting occurs by intelligent use of assets available.  Sometimes this is through hex flipping, sometimes its by use of major fleet assests and the heavy iron, sometimes its by diversions, sometimes deepstrikes. 

Planning has 3 major aspects.

1 Organization

2 Timing

3 Resources

If all are used in conjunction, the impact can be greater than a larger force using pure hex flipping.

No strategy is necessary with such a large difference in mission numbers.  Take the collective DV shifts for both sides from those missions. Deploy them on a map a thousand bigillion times in a random placement of the missions.  A large majority of the simulations would yield a victory for the side with the most missions.  But of course, the placement of the missions is not random in the D2.  It is focused in areas of LOS and toward  VC targets.  Now take all those missions again with some sort of algorithm that would assign them in a reasonable goal seeking fashion.  Do a bizillion simulations.  I would guarantee 99.99999999999% to 100% victory to the side with the most missions. 

Remember the disparity between the two sides in missions are all AI missions, so they are uncontested by defintion, meaning an disengagement rule/PvP likely had absolutely no effect on their placement on the map or their effect on the map.

The only possible case of a victory without a mission advantage would be a very bizzare scenario or one in which PvP VCs could exceed the gap of VCs gained from hexflipping.


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Offline Lepton

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2004, 08:10:42 pm »
Lepton,

May I remind you that the Alliance managed the LOS to the Federation? How many missions was required to do this 1-time needed objective compared to the total # of missions run on the server?

What the heck does this mean??  I suppose you offer it as a case of strategy.  That makes my case stronger.  The alliance had even fewer "on the frontline" missions than is shown in the actual numbers.  The only thing that could possibly make up for mission gaps would be the victory conditions and their criteria.  The Alliance was only able to save their bacon in terms of VCs by pushing for this goal which for some reason was not sufficiently fought by the Coalition, but I take that as the exception to the rule.  In general, if the goal is to take land, planets, bases, strategy is pretty inconsequential given the huge gap in mission numbers.


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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2004, 08:40:04 pm »
Wrong again Lepton.  Strategy, timing and using of resourses is critical to any campaign.  Not missions run.    Coalition won SS2 and had fewer missions.  Mirak/Hydran won IDSL in the final minutes before the campaign ended with 7 players vs 10 coaltion players.  Both strategy and timing and command of the game won these, not flipping hexes.

See some of us really enjoy the game for that aspect of it.  Playing as a team for a common goal and trying to out flank you opponent is what I love about this game.  I guess you don t get in on some of the planning and "operations" that have been done over the last 2 years.  Maybe you should try.  I think you would enjoy the game more.

Since the disengagement rule has come about, now PvP, hexflipping, and strategic planning are all important parts of the game.  I enjoy them all.  Maybe you should hang out on Ventrillo or TS with the guys and gals and learn to enjoy the commaradire and actual gamesmanship that happens during these dynas.  Then maybe you would enjoy it more.
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Offline KAT Chuut-Ritt

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2004, 08:41:31 pm »
I agree with you to some degree Lepton, in that the side which runs the most mission will usually win if the difference substantial.

However when looking at mission run stats you must also consider a couple of things.

1 win or loss in p v p  this mission would be productive for the winning side only and although the losing side ran a mission as well, they reaped no benefit from it.

2 a mission run by a solo player or one with a wing will yield the same DV result.  So although 3 players running solos will show up the same on the statistics as 3 running together, the result of the 3 solos will be greater.

3 mission types may influence the figures.  A planet assault takes longer than a patrol but if a planet can be taken without an encirclement the missions run will be less.  

4 many missions might be used to make a defense, this will make the enemy choose to fly elsewhere.  It achieves its objective yet fewer missions run at a different target while ignoring the heavily defended one making the fewer missions more effective.

there are other aspects as well, but this is enough for now I think.  I do think that a large differential in missions run is hard to overcome.  A smaller differential can be seen as a minor disadvantage.  My rule of thumb is a 10-15% differnece where strategy comes more into play. I see it kinda as depicted below:

say 5% strategy making the only real difference

10% strategy making most of the difference

15% strategy making a large part of the difference

20% strategy making a  significant contribution, but missions run being a significant part of the result

25% strategy making some contribution, but missions run differentials being the primary factor

30%+ strategy not overcoming most of the missions run differentials

Offline Hexx

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2004, 08:42:40 pm »
 :thumbsup: Fluf

Now shouldn't you be getting me a D2 to play on ???

Yer never going to bake those guys all those pies I keep hearing about at this rate....
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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2004, 08:56:31 pm »
Holy sh*t this topic exploded!  Go to one wedding on look WTF happens . . .

OT:  Had a great time at a friend's wedding in the middle of nowhere.   Wedding-factory in upstate NY.  Great food, lots of Captain Morgan and Coke, and I made it home alive!

win, loose, whot fricking cares?   D5D running 15 second faster mission time than a Mohawk, who fricking cares?

Was the server fun?  Yup.   

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Offline Mazeppa

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2004, 01:00:19 am »
1 win or loss in p v p  this mission would be productive for the winning side only and although the losing side ran a mission as well, they reaped no benefit from it.

2 a mission run by a solo player or one with a wing will yield the same DV result.  So although 3 players running solos will show up the same on the statistics as 3 running together, the result of the 3 solos will be greater.

3 mission types may influence the figures.  A planet assault takes longer than a patrol but if a planet can be taken without an encirclement the missions run will be less.  

4 many missions might be used to make a defense, this will make the enemy choose to fly elsewhere.  It achieves its objective yet fewer missions run at a different target while ignoring the heavily defended one making the fewer missions more effective.

I had not considered these issues.  But you are right. 

One other scenario is if you get run out of a hex that is being contested.  You might run a few missions at an alternate area that is not really important in the scheme of things.
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Offline Lepton

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2004, 02:34:28 am »
Wrong again Lepton.  Strategy, timing and using of resourses is critical to any campaign.  Not missions run.    Coalition won SS2 and had fewer missions.  Mirak/Hydran won IDSL in the final minutes before the campaign ended with 7 players vs 10 coaltion players.  Both strategy and timing and command of the game won these, not flipping hexes.

See some of us really enjoy the game for that aspect of it.  Playing as a team for a common goal and trying to out flank you opponent is what I love about this game.  I guess you don t get in on some of the planning and "operations" that have been done over the last 2 years.  Maybe you should try.  I think you would enjoy the game more.

Since the disengagement rule has come about, now PvP, hexflipping, and strategic planning are all important parts of the game.  I enjoy them all.  Maybe you should hang out on Ventrillo or TS with the guys and gals and learn to enjoy the commaradire and actual gamesmanship that happens during these dynas.  Then maybe you would enjoy it more.

You cite two examples.  SS2 was won by coalition due to VCs pertaining to PvP if I remember correctly.  Wasn't around for IDSL so I can't comment.

Let me be clear as to what I am saying.  There is no strategy needed when the separation in mission numbers is so great.  To some degree, I'd like to extend those remarks to other campaigns other than this particular one.  I don't say that strategy never plays a role, but that it need not in this case or likely any other case where there is a significant disparity in mission numbers.

Do I have an issue with hexflipping?  Yes.  Do I think it is boring?  Yes.

Let me also be clear about something else.  To the same degree that people would say that I discount strategy because I don't want to see it is the degree that those who wish to see strategy do see it.  I have no doubt that people are thinking strategically in the execution of their plans, but that strategy would be nothing if there isn't sufficient hexflipping to back it up and in this case where the mission disparity is nearly a quarter of the other side's total missions, I don't think we need to look to strategy for an explanation of who won.

The question then becomes whether there is always such a disparity.  Apparently it is not always the case, but in instances where it is, strategic thinking aside, any old way of proceeding would have been sufficient to win.  In general, I would give very little credence to strategy as an explanation of server success given these conditions.

I however look forward to being proved wrong in the future regarding strategy, but I haven't seen it in this instance.


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Offline Soreyes

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2004, 07:09:32 am »
I don't know what to say there Lepton. I think I can understand where your coming from. It seems to me that people like myself who absolutely SUCK at PvP are slowly being forced from the game.

I'm a hex flipper...... and proud of it. I figure that if I can get a few enemy ships to start chasing me around the map in my CL type ship. I have done my job.


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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2004, 07:35:26 am »

Do I have an issue with hexflipping?  Yes.  Do I think it is boring?  Yes.

It can be.   That's why you BS with your buddies on TS while flying.   Makes hex-flipping much less mind-numbing. 

Besides, anyone looking for PvP can easily find it as the "front" is usually very obvious.

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Offline KBF-Dogmatix_XC

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #46 on: June 28, 2004, 12:47:57 pm »
About 3700 missions more generally does the trick.  All AI missions I would assume by definition.  More mouse clicking wins the day.  How exciting!!

Depends where the extra missions were run, not just the fact of extra missions, 3k missions in the top left corner would mean nothing. Coalition ran there missions in Alliance space and not vice versa, has more to do with winning than raw numbers.

Very true, but these post-mortems will point out the the winning side of a campaign has never run fewer missions than the losing side.

I suspect we'll never see a situation where fewer missions win unless one side wastes a lot of missions in areas that mean nothing. 


Dedication and turnout tends to be what wins servers.  One never knows which side is going to be the more dedicated from server to server.  Every now and then, when equal dedication is present, we get a real barn-burner...heheh.


GW2 was fun, though...had a good time.


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Offline Gook

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #47 on: June 28, 2004, 01:45:37 pm »
Lepton

Strategy:

1) the science and art of employing all the resources of a (nation or group of nations) to carry out agreed policies in peace and war

2) The science of art and military command exercised to meet the enemy in combat under advantageous positions

3) the art of employing plans toward achieving a goal.

Definitions from OED

I can say with hand on heart that every campaign I commanded would have been lost without two things, strategy and tactics. To make strategy work you have to have a force willing to achieve that strategy and not flinch from its goal, with above all high morale.

Now from AF onward through CW2-6 and all the servers in between the Kzin, in the form of the KATs NEVER had a numerical advantage of any sort. Whether that was straight Alliance v Coalition or more exotic alliances. IN AF itself we were the least numerous race, The Gorn had twice our numbers, we were seen as an irrelevance and at best a nuisance, the Feds, Klinks and Rommies were the powers in those days followed by the ISC, Hydrans, Lyrans and Gorn with the Kzin last. BY the end of that server we had driven broken the Lyran morale so only Kzinbane and Skyapawa were left, we had created the Farstar county in Gorn territory and were the only race to be threatening 2 capitals simultaneously and thereby being the closest of any race to victory. The Fred's who outnumbered all by a significant margin were forced to stop fighting the Klinks and organise a massive redeployment of forces to  deal with the threat. We didn't run more missions, we had slow drones, we had the fewest people but what we had we used well. We chose where to attack and when. We deployed our limited forces to our best advantage and when we got  to within striking distance we got organised. We had a cab rank system for taking down hexes and when PvP happened our small ships swarmed all over the "Big Guns" sent to hunt us down. We had no way of running more missions than the Feds or the Klinks.

Rogue Jedi. Smaller numbers of Kzin again, but buoyed up in morale after AF. Morale of the Feds was broken and many left the server. Earth and Lyra Fell to the Kzin.

CW3 the Kzin were out numbered 16-1 not only were the great fleets of ISC forced back, but allies who tried to help them, (Rommies , Lyrans and Klinks) were all forced back, this was done because of high morale, sheer bloody mindedness and having a plan.

CW4 only lasted 48 hours, by which time with less numbers we had got in a position to split the Lyrans and the Klinks from each other and were close to a link up with the Hydrans. Forces were used to block and delay while others pursued strategic goals (Hydran link up and Klingon/Lyran decoupling). No extra missions were flown, we just had a plan.

CW5 the pacification war. Still inferior numbers we were targeted by the Klinks (ISC were junior partners despite being "lead race") We got hammered buts stalled the pacifiers for long enough the Feds and Rommies could get themselves together. We Lost Mraa, and got it back again. The Lyrans were lost after ferocious battles in which different strategies were used by both. The Hydrans fell to a suprise attack by Squiggy leading the 69th, who with 2 other pilots took Hydraxx and shifted the BoP. The whole server was seesaw and only when the decision was taken to attack the ISC homeworld and take the battle to enemy  (a strategic decision) did the non pacified eventually win. The Gorn were saved en route, and like it or not espionage played a big part with Rommies infiltrating the Klinks and leaking their plans, I still have those plans all of which fit the definitions given above.

CW5.5, CW5.75, CW5.775, Frigate hell, Feds v klinks CW, CW5.9, CW5.995  and many more. All were won and lost not by number of missions run, but by how those missions were run, and more importantly than everything else, the morale of the people who ran them. They didn't fall apart when the going got tough, they dug in and fought harder.

CW6 probably the height of EAW, two sides very experienced, still a big player base, Strategic battles over Pinky Gen, Kang, Patriach 1 in the west and Musashi, Asgard and Letac in the East. These battles were not fought because people liked the names, but because they were strategic pieces of real estate. The battles in the Cluster were not just because the stars had fancy names, but because of its position on the map, its economic advantages and the VCs. When the final drive on earth came it was to have two prongs, this was found to be inefficient so a strategic decision to move all Kzin forces to the Klink attack route was taken to hasten the end.

In the last game GW2 I have mentioned altready in the thread, the Coalition chose a better strategy than the Alliance and always fought on Alliance territory, so their gains always meant something. The last day Hail Mary, followed a conscious decision by the Alliance to undertake an attack at complete odds with previous strategy (hold the line). To this end they ensured a thourough recon was made, and an attack route was selected. The evening before H Hour missions were run to weaken advance hexes, covered by heavy fighting on the normal front which the coalition were pressing heavily on. They did not notice the weakening and if they did they ignored it as a feint and made the conscious strategic decision to press on with their plan to Hydraxx. The Alliance having recon, and prep just needed suprise which they achieved with a dawn start time. The aim was to reach the Feds, there was an 89 DV shift which had to be made (the hexes to the border), decisions were made about how high to bump hexes and how we went about the strategic aim, on a tactical level. The Coalition made strategic errors (probably unwittingly rather than consciously) by not placing details of what we were up to on Taldren when they realised what it was (comms break down leading to strategic setback) but more importantly chose to attack the line not from their space, but from the Hydran end, unwilling it seems to throw full force at the line and pull off Hydraxx. Even with small forces they could have stopped the attempt as we had to go round a 20DV base we didn't have time to reduce by siege. 3 hexes were continually exposed to this threat, but whether by luck or judgement the real show stopper was not spotted, probably because not many Alliance players even knew there was a base that far south and east to help them. Result 89(ish) well chosen missions netted 76 VCs or many more times the number of VCs achieved through 2 weeks of Intense PvP including capital ship VCs.

So in conclusion its not numbers or missions run, its strategy and Morale that wins a decent Dyna.

I know you disagree, but I disagree with you :)

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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #48 on: June 28, 2004, 02:39:50 pm »

So in conclusion its not numbers or missions run, its strategy and Morale that wins a decent Dyna.


To an extent, yes.  But how could you possibly win when out-missioned by 35%? 

10-15% difference maybe.  Strategy abosulutely makes a huge difference when the number of total misisons is close. 

When the numbers are "close," I absolutely agree with you.

EDIT:  Just noticed in your post you keep referencing "player numbers."   This stat is irrelevant, always has been.   Total Misisons flown is the stat you should be focussing on.

1 Fluf = 10 normal pilots.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2004, 02:44:05 pm by FPF-DieHard »
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Offline KBF-Dogmatix_XC

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #49 on: June 28, 2004, 02:44:28 pm »

So in conclusion its not numbers or missions run, its strategy and Morale that wins a decent Dyna.


To an extent, yes.  But how could you possibly win when out-missioned by 35%? 

10-15% difference maybe.  Strategy abosulutely makes a huge difference when the number of total misisons is close. 

When the numbers are "close," I absolutely agree with you.


I'd agree with that.  I think the one time this occured might have been CW6.
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Offline Gook

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #50 on: June 28, 2004, 03:34:36 pm »

So in conclusion its not numbers or missions run, its strategy and Morale that wins a decent Dyna.


To an extent, yes.  But how could you possibly win when out-missioned by 35%? 

10-15% difference maybe.  Strategy absolutely makes a huge difference when the number of total missions is close. 

When the numbers are "close," I absolutely agree with you.

EDIT:  Just noticed in your post you keep referencing "player numbers."   This stat is irrelevant, always has been.   Total missions flown is the stat you should be focussing on.

1 Fluf = 10 normal pilots.

What can I say, except in CW6 when the Fed Alliance was outmissioned (largely because of fleet withdrawl following a morale collapse), The numbers of kzin  could usually be counted on two hands (CW4 and 6 we had a few more), and whether counting nutters or otherwise, we simply could not out mission the "Big 3" of Fed/Klinks/Rommies, it was tens v hundreds, even with 10 nutters 24/7 you can't make up that many missions. We tended to wipe out enemy gains and make gains of our own and fight in enemy space, not ours. Deploy away from home quickly, concentrate the mind of the enemy on his own patch and take it from there. Demoralisation being the key, it was easier for our enemies to fight elsewhere and so they did. In doing so they would surrender the Strategic initiative.

All I am saying is 100 well chosen missions are better than 1,000 Ill chosen ones, and the proof is in the history.

BTW Fluff and the rest of KOTH arrived for CW6, before then we had a Dunzel, and that was about it the rest including myself were in the very committed bracket (though once or twice I was a nutter too).

Could have been Magic I suppose ;)

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Offline Lepton

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #51 on: June 28, 2004, 03:40:03 pm »
Gook,

While I appreciate the history lesson, none of what you say addresses my point.  The point is given a large mission number gap no strategy is necessary.  You seem to cite the Kzins being outnumbered as some evidence of how less missions could equal victory or something to that effect.  That is a false analogy, but it may not be what you are intending to say.  I never said strategy can't play a role in the D2, but I do think it (strategy) is most easily defeated by running more missions than your opponent, and one would have to almost by definition unless there were a set of victory conditions or a server setup that would allow the converse. So I would say that whenever there is a substantial gap, strategy doesn't matter.  I'd really like to see mission totals for all these other servers.  It would be interesting to see those stats and how they compare to one another.

And don't get me started on morale which is merely a twisted way of saying who is willing to plug away endlessly on the AI for hours on end.  I mean, I have seen some D2 burnouts in my time here, and people just relentlessly on servers and I ask myself, "For what??  For what??".  Do we really enjoy smacking around the AI that much??  In my mind, this is what wins servers.  A dedicated group of people who want nothing more than to mouse click.

A harsh assessment, I agree, but I think the D2 system is severely flawed when people can become discouraged from playing based upon a system that often rewards being online as much as possible and/or having as much of a numbers disadvantage as possible either over the life of the server or at particular times of the day.


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Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #52 on: June 28, 2004, 03:46:36 pm »

All I am saying is 100 well chosen missions are better than 1,000 Ill chosen ones, and the proof is in the history.



Not 1,000.  Maybe 115  :lol:
Who'd thunk that Star-castling was the root of all evil . . .


Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #53 on: June 28, 2004, 03:51:45 pm »
Gook,

While I appreciate the history lesson, none of what you say addresses my point.   . . . . .

He's a lawyer, his carreer is all about talking a lot without actually addressing the issue  :rofl:
Who'd thunk that Star-castling was the root of all evil . . .


Offline Gook

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #54 on: June 28, 2004, 03:56:55 pm »
Gook,

While I appreciate the history lesson, none of what you say addresses my point.  The point is given a large mission number gap no strategy is necessary.  You seem to cite the Kzins being outnumbered as some evidence of how less missions could equal victory or something to that effect.  That is a false analogy, but it may not be what you are intending to say.  I never said strategy can't play a role in the D2, but I do think it (strategy) is most easily defeated by running more missions than your opponent, and one would have to almost by definition unless there were a set of victory conditions or a server setup that would allow the converse. So I would say that whenever there is a substantial gap, strategy doesn't matter.  I'd really like to see mission totals for all these other servers.  It would be interesting to see those stats and how they compare to one another.

And don't get me started on morale which is merely a twisted way of saying who is willing to plug away endlessly on the AI for hours on end.  I mean, I have seen some D2 burnouts in my time here, and people just relentlessly on servers and I ask myself, "For what??  For what??".  Do we really enjoy smacking around the AI that much??  In my mind, this is what wins servers.  A dedicated group of people who want nothing more than to mouse click.

A harsh assessment, I agree, but I think the D2 system is severely flawed when people can become discouraged from playing based upon a system that often rewards being online as much as possible and/or having as much of a numbers disadvantage as possible either over the life of the server or at particular times of the day.

Well Like I said we disagree, and must agree that we disagree :)

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Offline Lepton

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #55 on: June 28, 2004, 03:58:48 pm »
Further, I have absolutely no idea of server set-ups for this history lesson.  I would assume this great Kzin history you speak of was also the trigger for the entire mission times, CnC, OoB, yada-yada-yada, essentially everything that has come on after to balance out hex-flipping nonsense, as it seems the most attention I have seen on these issues has been focused on drone races and the Kzin in particular.  So I take that as further evidence of the mouse-clicking hypothesis.


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Offline Gook

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #56 on: June 28, 2004, 04:00:03 pm »
Gook,

While I appreciate the history lesson, none of what you say addresses my point.   . . . . .

He's a lawyer, his carreer is all about talking a lot without actually addressing the issue  :rofl:

Really, I rather thought I had, but what you say about lawyers really can't be denied.

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Offline KBF-Crim

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #57 on: June 28, 2004, 04:08:15 pm »
Further, I have absolutely no idea of server set-ups for this history lesson.  I would assume this great Kzin history you speak of was also the trigger for the entire mission times, CnC, OoB, yada-yada-yada, essentially everything that has come on after to balance out hex-flipping nonsense, as it seems the most attention I have seen on these issues has been focused on drone races and the Kzin in particular.  So I take that as further evidence of the mouse-clicking hypothesis.

THIS IS THE SONG THAT NEVER ENDS ,IT JUST GOES ON AND ON MY FRIENDS :spam:

Offline FPF-DieHard

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #58 on: June 28, 2004, 04:13:15 pm »
Oh come on Crim,we need the Lepton's of this world.  Dissenting opinions help us grow and keep us honest.

Was funny though <snicker>
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Offline Gook

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #59 on: June 28, 2004, 04:42:14 pm »
Further, I have absolutely no idea of server set-ups for this history lesson.  I would assume this great Kzin history you speak of was also the trigger for the entire mission times, CnC, OoB, yada-yada-yada, essentially everything that has come on after to balance out hex-flipping nonsense, as it seems the most attention I have seen on these issues has been focused on drone races and the Kzin in particular.  So I take that as further evidence of the mouse-clicking hypothesis.

The reason for the "History Lesson" was you called for examples of strategy in D2.

The Issues you mention have been with us for as long as the game.

If people thought the game was fine and there were no issues there would be no biatching about them. I got fed up of the moans from what seemed to be a relatively small bunch, and was trying to find out what was really wanted. Once we know whether is a problem even we can address it, if there is none we can do nothing.

I at least still find the game (d2wise) enjoyable in the main, and do not wish to cast it aside in a form of Carthaginian peace (salting the ground etc.). There is no reason why you should not set up your GSA based campaign based around scenarios, and I believe Max is calling for volunteers for just such an enterprise. But I like the 24/7 global set up a Dyna gives and when prime time is over, it still carries on around the world while those in the hallowed precepts of EST to PT are slumbering in their beds. Just a personal preference, just as yours is for your kind of game. No reason why the two should not coexist, and people play both if they want to, and just one if that is their desire.

Vive La difference!
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Offline KBF-Crim

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #60 on: June 28, 2004, 05:14:36 pm »
Well...I want to THANK all of those who ran GW2.....looking forward to GW3....


Offline Corbomite

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #61 on: June 28, 2004, 10:36:44 pm »
THIS IS THE SONG THAT NEVER ENDS ,IT JUST GOES ON AND ON MY FRIENDS :spam:




WELCOME BACK MY FRIENDS TO THE SHOW THAT NEVER ENDS, WE"RE SO GLAD YOU COULD ATTEND, COME INSIDE, COME INSIDE!
« Last Edit: June 28, 2004, 10:40:45 pm by Corbomite »

Offline FVA_C_ Blade_ XC

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #62 on: June 28, 2004, 10:41:17 pm »
LMAO Corbo!

Good to see ya made it.
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Offline KBF-Dogmatix_XC

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Re: Gw2 Post-Mortem
« Reply #63 on: June 28, 2004, 11:09:17 pm »
LMAO Corbo!

Good to see ya made it.


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