Topic: What exactly do people want?

[Gook]

So there have been some suggestions for improvements, now some say they are not needed. Some say there are too many rules, some to few. Some want PvP centric dynas, with strategic element second, some want less emphasis on PvP and more team work and less "I am".

The reason I keep banging away at what peeps want is that the moans haven't really changed in 4 years of play. Drones, cheese, drones, Marines, cheese, BBs, not enough skill blah blah blah, lots of hot air and no action.

The last poll on Taldren was a 50/50 (effectively 2 votes in it) for more or less control. In the absence of any constructive immediately available solutions, it seems to me we just play alternate servers, one "laissez faire" the other more regimented and "Tourney" cruiser like where BCHs can have a jolly god bash at each other.

Now prove me wrong and post some constructive ideas which don't rely on months of coding and debugging, or we are going to remain in the same old rut?

Yep I know the DIPers have been beavering away and that will be coming out shortly, but BPV/Hull/scripting problems may have an impact and then as the system was worked out by a cabal there will be howls about its effect, (as we have seen already) about its structure from those who were not privy to its evolution. So we need constructive public debate (less "soundbites").

Post away, even if you think nothing should change.

[Bonk]

I want to see a server where fleets are allowed (CnC as close to SFB as possible) with a F&E style OoB (perhaps a bit generous). You choose the implementation. I want it NOW!

Edit: in the interest of making a constructive suggestion, how about this implementation:
The OoB file must be downloaded and added to the scripts folder as an scr (just a text file but make it a validated file to help force it being read). Then add the following to the server description:
"If you have never played SFB or have no idea what a F&E OoB is - DO NOT LOGIN!"
i.e if all the players read the OoB and are familiar with SFB CnC and can work within an honour system then it will work fine. No coding, no debugging and its ready now.

That will exclude a lot of players however, so a server with no rules whatsoever should always run concurrently so that people can fly all the BBs they like if that's what they want.


I'll still be working on an automated, customisable OoB system anyway as part of the php webmap, which admins can enable or disable as they see fit. (If they use the webmap at all).

[FPF-DieHard]

What do I want?   Working on it now in SGODev.   Some reall advantages to owning your own server . . .

Pretty much what Bonk had posted above.

Pretty much make the game as close as possible to SFB and F&E.

[Max Power]

I'm in development of a campaign that will be played out on GSA, with full orders of battle, etc, etc. If you're interested in that contact me - I could use some help with the work (especially).

[Grim]

I want there to be a variety of different type of servers, some with OOB and rules and some fun servers. I personally dont want some kind of standard procedure for future servers where they all follow the same OOB etc.

In terms of OOB i feel that the DN's/BB's, are the only ships that should be restricted, best method imo is to have the high price and high VC option on these. Yes i know this stops the casual players, on the other hand it may inspire them to play more and thus get that ship that they want. I find some of the talk of balance is excessive as the game aint supposed to be 100% balanced, some races have advantages over others, some ships have advnatges over others etc.

Basically what we have now is a mixture of servers IMO, and i think it should stay like that.

[Lepton]

OK, I'lll say it simple and fast.  Rip the D2 out by the roots and salt the earth it was planted on.  Replace with a GSA-based online campaign that uses a web-based F&E style map, OoB, production, etc, etc.  All games are PvP.  No stupid AI.  No hex flipping.  Just SFC.   Scenarios either generated by Race Leader map movements of actual fleets or generated at random from a set of condition.   The model that this is based on is the General War Campaign and STOC in the first instance and Virtual Eastern Front in the second instance. 

No sides.  No server numbers.  People log on to play the scenarios, not to take sides and win.  The game for the sake of the game.

Any and all complexity in any campaign could be handled by an SQL-based database and web app that would be exactly what admins seem to be clamoring for without having to leverage it on a D2 server kit that isn't stable for SQL at the present.

Unpopular?  Besides the point?  Irrelevant?

Oh, to be certain, but that is the only thing I really want.

[Hexx]

I want...
people to realize that this game isn't SFB with all that that entails,
I want
people to realize that SFB's basic background and history for ship designs doesn't really make alot of sense, so stop trying to make them work in this game
I want
people who play SFB and like it to have fun playing this game
I want
a server that has some restrictions so that people who have nothing but time on their hands don't end up in BB's, who consider it fun to smack around people who havent earned enough prestige to compete.
I want
 to be able to play on a server where I have unlimited access to CWLP's/D5L's and other's can fly what they like
I want
the people who want restricted OOB's to be able to play on a server and have fun
I want
People to realize that the game has survived this long because every server has been a little different and that there is no perfect system that's going to keep everyone happy.

[FPF-AJTK]

Im in 100% agreement with HEXX.

A mix of servers is what keeps people going. If they are all regimented, SFB/F+E types, your only catering to a portion of the player base, whereas on the other hand, if it is all 3 BB fleets flying around, with no rules, etc that will run off the more SFB/F+E types.

Have it like it always has been:

Fun servers, with no restrictions
Controlled servers, with Full/Limited OoB.
Perhaps a server with the systems Bonk and Gook have suggested as well, that would have to be more on the Full/Limited OoB I would imagine, but I suppose it could work on the Fun server as well.

I think GW2 was the best server I have played on yet. I liked SS2 as well, where you could BUY a BCH if you wanted, but if you died it gave VCs to the enemy.

While I prefer the GW2 type, or even a more restricted type OoB server, Im the type that I will pretty much play on anything that sounds good. Im sorry Dizzy's SG3 is gonna be for EAW, as I uninstalled that when I got OP and have no intention of taking a step backwards in my SFC play. (HOT chicks tho, Dizzy!  )

Make it however you want, as DH's poll showed, it appears that of the interested community that actually comes to the boards, its pretty much split right down the middle.

Seems to indicate we need both types of servers, and perhaps some blended servers that have both elements.

I frankly am skeptical of the DIP project, but hope to be proven wrong in LB5. Of course, as one of the "Evil SFB Purists" I dont like the idea of modifying things to make BCH's more like Tourney ships, nor do I like the idea of modifying things so historically slow hex flipping races can compete with the other races. Its not about "fair" its about picking the race you like.

Ah well, do as you will. I will happily try whatever you hard working boys and girls put out. 

[FPF-DieHard]

I want to play a game that has more tactics than a death-drag . . .

[FPF-AJTK]

I want to play a game that has more tactics than a death-drag . . .

Ok, I know what a death-drag is regarding fighters, but what is it other than that?! Call me a dumbass and color me stoopid but I havent a clue.

[FPF-DieHard]

I want to play a game that has more tactics than a death-drag . . .

Ok, I know what a death-drag is regarding fighters, but what is it other than that?! Call me a dumbass and color me stoopid but I havent a clue.

Kzin Anchor, Gorn Anchor. 

[FPF-AJTK]

Ahh, ok. Had not heard them called that but obviously am WELL aware of those nasty little things. Not just kzin, any droner, lol. Heh, I remember on SS2 thinking I had Crims D5D on the run in my F-BCG and was chasing him at speed 26, so his medium drones couldnt catch me. The nasty bugger set me up the bomb and tractored me and slowed me down. I hit em with photons and whatnot, but didnt kill him. Used up my phasers on his 12 drones chasing me, then he fired 6 more and SP'd. Bleh.

Rule #1 when fighting a droner: NEVER CHASE HIM, EVER. 

Lol, what a humiliating bitch slap that was, lol. Served me well, havent died from a droner since. 

[Bonk]

I want...
people to realize that this game isn't SFB with all that that entails,
I want
people to realize that SFB's basic background and history for ship designs doesn't really make alot of sense, so stop trying to make them work in this game

We realise that, three ships does not make an SFB fleet. (Real-time, not turn based... etc...)

Adapted SFB CnC is still valid. I'll say it again: Adapted SFB CnC is still valid, and addresses a lot of these concerns.

SFB ship designs don't make sense for TNG Star Trek simulation, but they make perfect sense for naval simulation.

I guess the question is TV simulation vs naval battle simulation. Seems we have two kinds of gamers here.

[kbf-jd]

I want to play a game that has more tactics than a death-drag . . .

I want a Darwin server,  in other words, if you are so stupid as to get tractored, you do not live to reproduce....

jd

[FVA_C_ Blade_ XC]

I want Peace in the Middle East................And a nice inexpensive good 50yr old single malt!

[FPF-AJTK]

I want to play a game that has more tactics than a death-drag . . .

I want a Darwin server,  in other words, if you are so stupid as to get tractored, you do not live to reproduce....

jd

 

[Grim]

Its simple, admins run the servers how you see fit if you want a fun server or specfic rules implemented then run the server how you want to.

At the end of the day the player will chose whether to fly it or not.

And based on the poll that DH made on Taldren it seemed more or less 50/50, so there is still some numbers who would play either type of server.

[Rod ONeal]

Its simple, admins run the servers how you see fit if you want a fun server or specfic rules implemented then run the server how you want to.

At the end of the day the player will chose whether to fly it or not.

And based on the poll that DH made on Taldren it seemed more or less 50/50, so there is still some numbers who would play either type of server.

I agree. I also like that it came out even on the poll, Let's both sides know that they aren't in the majority and should quit thinking that it's either a missinformed few or the SFB nutter minority that are the problem.

[Fluf]

Yep, thats why I didnt vote in that pole.  Im 50/50 myself on these issues.  I never played SFB, played the FASA game before it..  So I guess Im more of a SFCer.  Thats why I dont like restricting myself to SFB rules when it comes to this game.  I ran the first OOB server, and had fun. I will continue to run a variety of servers, to try to just have fun with all types of stuff.  Litterbox servers have always had something new to try out, so they are a testbed of sorts for alot of things that happen here.  Some will like it, some wont.  Oh well, I just want to play the game!

[KBF-Crim]

Ahh, ok. Had not heard them called that but obviously am WELL aware of those nasty little things. Not just kzin, any droner, lol. Heh, I remember on SS2 thinking I had Crims D5D on the run in my F-BCG and was chasing him at speed 26, so his medium drones couldnt catch me. The nasty bugger set me up the bomb and tractored me and slowed me down. I hit em with photons and whatnot, but didnt kill him. Used up my phasers on his 12 drones chasing me, then he fired 6 more and SP'd. Bleh.

 

Rule #1 when fighting a droner: NEVER CHASE HIM, EVER. 

 

Lol, what a humiliating bitch slap that was, lol. Served me well, havent died from a droner since. 

Heh...havent run into me again since either

Honestly..I'm honored you even remember....

[KAT Chuut-Ritt]

What do I want?

Well Hexx got to alot of my point of view, to sum it up in a word VARIETY.  Every server should be memorable for its individual settings, some will feature fleets, some 1 ship per player, the alliances will be regularly shifted, etc.

Secondly, I want more usage of a slot situation where smaller ships have their own playgrounds, without a glut of heavier ships dring them off and frustrating the hell out of them.

Thirdly I'd like no midserver changes other than to adress bug and stability issues.  If the odds are stacked against your side and its not fair well 3 words SUCK IT UP!.  If you don't like the setup don't play.

Fourth, I'd like to see more players break out of their fleets and races and play the races they dislike the most.  This will provide lots of perspective.

Fifth, I'd like to see some servers that are "user friendly" to the newer players, allowing them to experiment with all the diversity the D2 has to offer.

[Gook]

WOW people, I'm amazed apart from one attempted Hi-Jack, the comments are very constructive. Thanks to all who replied.

So for the record I tend to less restriction but don't like BB fest or the like. I think variety will produce the results we want, so droner is good but the escort trumps the droner PvP, the Escort get trumped by the CC, every body has to be wary of the Commando cruiser, but it is of its self vulnerable to being sniped to death. Fleets can knock out CCs but are difficult to control and do what you want, one player with a fleet is two players in PvP ships kebab.

So far as campaigns are concerned I like PvP, but am equally interested in the Strategic element, the map set up, lines of attack, bluff and real attack, I do not want a small area of map where we basically queue up for trench warfare. VCs for both elements, and I think people have to face the fact in a camapaign, if they lose a big ship they should be heavily penalised, it's not GSA, where it doesn't matter if you lose a big ship, it is supposed to be a campaign where IRL (if that expression can be used about a fantasy game) the loss of a capital asset REALLY matters.

So for current purposes (none automated  systems usable now) just have a well constructed map (destructble base PLEASE, the strategic element this would introduce for droners cannot be over emphasised) with VCs for BIG ships and map objectives and no restrictions on ships or fleets, each race has its time, with drone speed, fighters, PFs , BCH/Vs, but if you must restrict something then BBs only.

Thankyou all for responding.

BTW I played SFB for 20 years and F&E for 10, and would be happy for them to be applied if internals were halved, drone speeds changed and ESGs affected allied ships, as well as true fighter and PF numbers on CVs and PFTs, to more accurately reflect those other, different and distinct games. Also ditch the scouts or reduce BPV to reflect NO sensors.

[Bonk]

Secondly, I want more usage of a slot situation where smaller ships have their own playgrounds, without a glut of heavier ships dring them off and frustrating the hell out of them.

Thirdly I'd like no midserver changes other than to adress bug and stability issues.  If the odds are stacked against your side and its not fair well 3 words SUCK IT UP!.  If you don't like the setup don't play.

Fourth, I'd like to see more players break out of their fleets and races and play the races they dislike the most.  This will provide lots of perspective.

Yes, yes, yes! I'm with Chuut on these issues. Glad they got mentioned. In particular I like the map "slot" concept.

[FPF-AJTK]

Not sure if asking someone what a particular type of tactic they refer to is and then responding to them about that tactic is considered a HI-JACK   
(Heh, just saw blades comment about peace in the mid east and single malt. Mayhaps that was the aforementioned attempted Hi Jack? ) 

BUT, I like what Chutt said alot. And what Gook said about real fighter/pf complements, scouts, etc.

Could someone at least partially code scouts into the game? I.E. Make a ship that could generate 12 EW points instead of only 6? I guess that would have to be a source code thing tho. And of course, what would you DO with the other 6 points, you would have to figure a way to lend them, to say  nothing of breaking lockons, etc.

BTW, heck YEAH I remember that Crim. Cant wait for the rematch, lol. You will have to fight for it this time, rofl! 

[Hexx]

Secondly, I want more usage of a slot situation where smaller ships have their own playgrounds, without a glut of heavier ships dring them off and frustrating the hell out of them.

Thirdly I'd like no midserver changes other than to adress bug and stability issues.  If the odds are stacked against your side and its not fair well 3 words SUCK IT UP!.  If you don't like the setup don't play.

Fourth, I'd like to see more players break out of their fleets and races and play the races they dislike the most.  This will provide lots of perspective.

Yes, yes, yes! I'm with Chuut on these issues. Glad they got mentioned. In particular I like the map "slot" concept.

Forgot about that... the "slot" was a great idea, hope to see it alot more often.

[Capt Jeff]

What do I want?

I want a game that I can come home to after work, pop a brew, or roll a jibber and play.

Some of these OOB ideas sound like a lot of work, and rules to remember.  I don't want to play the production game of what can or can't I buy, I want to play the actual game itself 


MAKE A AUTOMATED OOB AND I'LL LOVE IT

That way, if it's in the yards, I can buy it.   Simple, straight fowards, and I have just equal a chance at getting a bad boy as anyone else.  Right now, I'd not even ask for a OOB ship.  I'm not generally available during "prime time" and that is when you'd want them on.  Would make a me feel better about flying them.

[Gook]

What do I want?

I want a game that I can come home to after work, pop a brew, or roll a jibber and play.

Some of these OOB ideas sound like a lot of work, and rules to remember.  I don't want to play the production game of what can or can't I buy, I want to play the actual game itself 


MAKE A AUTOMATED OOB AND I'LL LOVE IT

That way, if it's in the yards, I can buy it.   Simple, straight fowards, and I have just equal a chance at getting a bad boy as anyone else.  Right now, I'd not even ask for a OOB ship.  I'm not generally available during "prime time" and that is when you'd want them on.  Would make a me feel better about flying them.

Loved that response, might even get Tanked, BB and Chay interested again.

I'm all for popping a beer and blowing stuff up

[john999]

I kinda of like the way things are with one exception.

The way it is now an Admin can set up his server just as he pleases and people can play or not just as they please.

The only exception I have is all the blinkin' downloads required to switch back and forth.    But, we need those for the diversity.  Once I have the files I set up and run batch programs to do the switching.

I DO prefer that they give me the files in file packages or individually, and NOT in some installer program.  I run my games from the D: drive and am particular and get grumpy when folks start sticking stuff in my Programs folder & on my Desktop, and/or doing registry changes.

For some folks installers are great, but leave me the option NOT to use them please.

The only other point I have is that while the honor system works fine for most folks some people simply have no concept of the term.  Unless you can enforce it in the coding WITHOUT losing the diversity previously mentioned, the Admin is gonna have a headache.  

Oh, and if Dave (Nuclear Wessels) reads this:

Dave on your Planetary and Homeworld Assaults, as soon as the planet gets captured, it can't be targeted anymore, no way no how.  Can you fix this?  There are times when I cap the planet BEFORE finishing off the other stuff and it's nice to be able to go back and hit it again if necessary, or get a quick view & range so I don't run into it.  

Also, is there any way to keep the servers from giving me Rom allies when I attack Rom (et.al.) hexes?  I still get the points but the DV's don't change unless I have a handy rock or something to tractor them into BEFORE I finish the mission.

[john999]

I want Peace in the Middle East................And a nice inexpensive good 50yr old single malt!

I want a nice rich 50 yr old single woman.

[C-Los]

Bottom Line....


I just want to have fun playing....


From here on out, If I find myself worrying too much about the rules, ship production and what I can and can't buy, and it becomes more work than fun...Then instead of sticking it out, I'll with-draw from the server.


If that occurs, I would be more of a hindrance to the side I was playing on !


I'm sure everyone would agree with me on this.


Nuff  said...

[Durin]

I want a server where I can log in for maybe an hour a day and still feel like I'm contributing to the effort. I don't want 100pp in the bank and not a darn ship worth flying available. I like the dread/BB restrictions. I'm not too sure if I like the  bch's being restricted.

Mesa love my BCG. and F and V .. 

[Bonk]

I DO prefer that they give me the files in file packages or individually, and NOT in some installer program.  I run my games from the D: drive and am particular and get grumpy when folks start sticking stuff in my Programs folder & on my Desktop, and/or doing registry changes.

For some folks installers are great, but leave me the option NOT to use them please.

A good installer will detect your installation folder and prompt you to confirm or change it. RTFM...
It should never modify registry settings, ini settings yes, registry settings - no.

I am sympathetic to your concerns though, some just won't trust an installer no matter what, due to bad experiences in the past.

One reason for the prevalence of installers now is their compression ratios, SFB_OP_04 is a ~46MB installer but is ~105MB zip file, people are very, very concerned about download size as many are still on legacy hardware.

I remember in the past spending the majority of the server listening to people recieve manual installation instructions over RW, I got fed up and pushed the NSIS system as a solution. Used properly (as in OP+ or SFB_OP) You have full control over the installation location. Somehow I don't think you'd want to do an OP+-no-models install manually unless you're some kind of masochist!
(personally I go for the models version anyway, there's a lot of nice touches)

[MrCue]

How feasable would it be to write something that can connect to a server and download only the differences between your version and that which resides on a server? Maybe even have a compression on the transfer.
This would result in the first mod you download being large, but subsequent mods would only need to download any changed files.

Just a thought.

[AdmWaterTiger-11thFleet-]

Forget it.

Like Fluf says, "Just wait."

http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php?topic=163342627.msg1122388095;topicseen#msg1122388095

[Bonk]

How feasable would it be to write something that can connect to a server and download only the differences between your version and that which resides on a server? Maybe even have a compression on the transfer.
This would result in the first mod you download being large, but subsequent mods would only need to download any changed files.

Just a thought.

Source release, source release, source release... (I'm thinking internal download options like Quake/RTCW style servers)

[Bonk]

Forget it.

Like Fluf says, "Just wait."

http://www.dynaverse.net/forum/index.php?topic=163342627.msg1122388095;topicseen#msg1122388095

Lol, I hear ya. Good thing we're a patient lot.

[AdmWaterTiger-11thFleet-]

Dude, sick of waiting on this end.

[FPF-SCM_TraceyG_XC]

The 2 things I want:

1: Completely modifiable... server admins can set up a server how they like in regard to as amy aspects of the game that creativity and imagination will allow

2: Completely automated... all rules should be withing the game itself, anything a player can do should be allowed. Obviously this requires the above point to be achieved first.

[AdmWaterTiger-11thFleet-]

Wait@#@!

[Bonk]

Dude, sick of waiting on this end.

Patience man, patience. It's still a great game and lots of fun in the meantime, right?

Are you familiar with Alexander Keith's beer advertising?

[SSCF-LeRoy]

What do I want?

Three words:

VARIETY, VARIETY, VARIETY!!!

[FPF-AJTK]

What do I want?

Three words:

VARIETY, VARIETY, VARIETY!!!

Dude, thats one word with a stutter. 

[Hexx]

Dude, sick of waiting on this end.

Patience man, patience. It's still a great game and lots of fun in the meantime, right?

Are you familiar with Alexander Keith's beer advertising?

Those Who Like It, Like it Alot?

Good beer, good slogan.
Not sure how it applies here though..

Ah well, anything about Keith's is always OK

[Soreyes]

What do I really want? To be able to more then just two or three points of damage, on Mad Elf's Shield's before he blows my little ol MDC or DWD apart.

[FVA_C_ Blade_ XC]

What do I really want? To be able to more then just two or three points of damage, on Mad Elf's Shield's before he blows my little ol MDC or DWD apart.

I've seen you fly,that is asking alot<snickers>

[Soreyes]

What do I really want? To be able to more then just two or three points of damage, on Mad Elf's Shield's before he blows my little ol MDC or DWD apart.

I've seen you fly,that is asking alot<snickers>

All I'm asking is to at least turn one of his shields to a bright RED

[Bonk]

Dude, sick of waiting on this end.

Patience man, patience. It's still a great game and lots of fun in the meantime, right?

Are you familiar with Alexander Keith's beer advertising?

Those Who Like It, Like it Alot?

Good beer, good slogan.
Not sure how it applies here though..

Ah well, anything about Keith's is always OK

No, no, no... dang, showing my age... it used to be "We take the time to do it right."
(didn't it? or have I lost it altogether?) I checked the website but found no trace of the old slogan...
did find these (kinda neat):
http://www.keiths.ca/k_birthday/keiths_bday.wmv
http://www.keiths.ca/k_brewery/k_video/tour.wmv
Funny how the people quoted at the end of the tour all seem to have a little buzz...
Pretty good site overall:
http://www.keiths.ca/
(I do tread on breaking the advertising rule here, not to mention going way off topic...lol)

I want beer, that's it... back on topic.

[alfman]

What do I really want? To be able to more then just two or three points of damage, on Mad Elf's Shield's before he blows my little ol MDC or DWD apart.

I've seen you fly,that is asking alot<snickers>

All I'm asking is to at least turn one of his shields to a bright RED

I feel the same way. On the otherhand when you have lost to madelf at least you know that you were killed by an excellent pilot. Occasionally I have been overconfident and lost to pilots that I normally own.

[Rallye72]

Good question, thanks for asking.

Short "background" first. Have been playing this series since SFC 1, this is the only game that has remained on my puter. Played the board version a few times, didn't care for it (but I am an old board wargamer). Never joined a "fleet" preferred to fly indie - and died alot !

It's clear that people want a variety of choices and not be locked into  a single option. So, from my perspective :

I'd like a dedicated training area for new and not so new players - irrespective of fleet allegiance. A place where the new (er) players can be taught not only basics but some of the tricks of the game and not get frustrated by those who prey on the uninitiated. In short a clearly identified road map so people can choose the direction they want to go. For those who don't understand what I'm talking about: I don't live on-line. I have a real job and a family. I don't/won't spend countless hours examining code, reading forums etc. I want to sign in, get some competent tutoring where I need it, and go have some fun. You also need a really clear diretory of where things are located: patches,downloads, and clear explanations of "mods", scripts, i.e what they are,how they work and how they effect the basic game program. I guess a sort of SFC University for the uninitiated. There's a lot of stuff out there but frankly for the casual person it's tough to wade through and make sense of.

After that I'd like to see a structured campaign with opposing fleets OB's that are locked in, a set time limit, and a clearly defined victory condition. Not everybody needs/wants a BB. If people who design OB's aren't clear about what a fleet looks like then simply look at any "real world" navy and you'll see far more frigates and destroyers than cruisers, BB's and carriers. So, yes in my opinion there should be limits on BCH's etc.

Finally, there needs to be a place for the "ladder climbers". While I personally think  GSA was ruiined by all of the "game zone only" players I realize there are those who really want to do that type of play and should be able to - but not at the playing expense of everyone else.

thanks for the opportunity to comment and good luck to those of you who are trying to make all of this work.

Rallye

[KBF-Dogmatix_XC]

I want to play a game that has more tactics than a death-drag . . .

Don't we already?   I certainly do...


And BTW, I don't agree with this thread's beginning premise that nothing has changed in four years.  Sure, the same issues still plague the sensibilities of some, but the game is markedly different today from that of even a couple years ago.

[Gook]

And BTW, I don't agree with this thread's beginning premise that nothing has changed in four years.  Sure, the same issues still plague the sensibilities of some, but the game is markedly different today from that of even a couple years ago.

Well some of the dressing may have changed, but essentially the issues reamin as they were, but that's a discussion for another time and thread.