Topic: Why there will never be an SFC4

[J. Carney]

Quote:
Cannon (can'nun) n. An instrument used to rectify national boarders. Ambros Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary  

That's gotta be the best sig I've seen in a while Tulwar

[Merlinfmct87]

Quite so, I'm rather jealous, and I'm quite fond of mine!  

[Merlinfmct87]

Quote:
   Merlin you and I registered around the same time.I wasn't aware of this were you and about a week a part from each other.I never realized that before untill I looked at your reg. date.

 Sig is by Pestalence  

*looks at date*

*looks at post count*

How?? How do you get 900 and I get 126?    

[Age]

Quote:

Quote:
   Merlin you and I registered around the same time.I wasn't aware of this were you and about a week a part from each other.I never realized that before untill I looked at your reg. date.

 Sig is by Pestalence  

*looks at date*

*looks at post count*

How?? How do you get 900 and I get 126?    

I had a great debate going on three weeks after I first reg.It was something and helping a few people out.That is one way of getting your post count up start a debate.Then aplogize later to all community members as they are fine people in this forum. It is passed 900 now.I am fond of my sig. as well.

 Sig is by Pestalence  

[Strat]

Quote:
It IS when you have a roof to keep over your head....and old lady to keep off your back...and three kids to feed...etc etc...

Not everyone has $1400 to throw into a glorified nintendo.....most of us have to make do with older stuff and tweak it to keep it working.  

Glorified Nintendo!    That sounds about right to me!

[J. Carney]

Yeah... single and looking has one advantage, more money for toys.

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

 Just a question.

Did all of this thread come over from Taldren?

There appea to be some replies missing.

[Bonk]

I think the last 24 hours of the old db are missing as they likely werent backed up yet at the shutdown?
(I've noticed the same on a few other threads... its not that big a deal though, I'm quite happy that all the old threads have been imported)

[Chris Jones]

To go back to the original post..

There will always be a gap of sorts between the SFB people and the TNG people. With regards to the SFC series, there are basically two kinds of gamers.

1. The SFB board game players
2. Star Trek people who had never heard of SFB until they bought an SFC game.

I am #2.

but.. I repsect the heritage and tradition of SFB, even though I know almost nothing of it.

I am attempting to bridge the gap. If you look at the Gamespy rooms of late there are a great many people playing a TNG Mod for OP, and it looks like many of them are coming over from EAW. The Mod is mine, TNG evolving into Multi-Era. The mod puts it all together, SFB, TOS, TMP, and TNG all in 1 place. The people playing this mod are from many different fleets, and like the fact that I offer 2552, 3.3, and TNG in the same OP install.

The interesting thing about it is this:

The people helping me are amazing. They are mostly SFB purists, using modules to spec the Early era. For mid era I am using a lot of Firesoul's 3.3 shiplist, with some TMP sprinkled in. Some of my assistants are indeed TNG fans, but SFC3 did not hit them right. They like the micro-management that OP offers, and feel that SFC3 is too simplified.

Here's my personal take on SFC3..

I have done a big Mega Mod for it, and recently updated it to the 531 patch, currently in the top 10 downloads on SFC3 Files. I enjoyed the challenge of learning the specifics of SFC3 modding. This may or may not be a surprise to some, but I play OP a lot more than SFC3. I think that's because the feel of OP is more pleasurable than the feel of SFC3. Another reason for me, I think, is because not long after SFC3 was released, I became burned out on SFC and switched to Bridge Commander for my TNG fix - with its bright shiny graphics, etc.. during my BC run I did no SFC at all, until I got wind that a group of gamers had revived my TNG Mod for OP. I'm still doing BC, and am part of the BC2 project. I never got back into SFC3, although I support all the mods for it, as I do support the entire series.  Pelican, Nannerslug, and the Unity Team have done amazing things with SFC3. I, however, have no plans to take my MegaMod any further - even though I get lots of e-mail about it still.

In summary, there will always be differences of opinion regarding different versions of SFC, but we are essentialy all one community, and that's what I'm promoting.

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

To go back to the original post..

There will always be a gap of sorts between the SFB people and the TNG people. With regards to the SFC series, there are basically two kinds of gamers.

1. The SFB board game players
2. Star Trek people who had never heard of SFB until they bought an SFC game.

I am #2.

but.. I repsect the heritage and tradition of SFB, even though I know almost nothing of it.

I am attempting to bridge the gap. If you look at the Gamespy rooms of late there are a great many people playing a TNG Mod for OP, and it looks like many of them are coming over from EAW. The Mod is mine, TNG evolving into Multi-Era. The mod puts it all together, SFB, TOS, TMP, and TNG all in 1 place. The people playing this mod are from many different fleets, and like the fact that I offer 2552, 3.3, and TNG in the same OP install.

The interesting thing about it is this:

The people helping me are amazing. They are mostly SFB purists, using modules to spec the Early era. For mid era I am using a lot of Firesoul's 3.3 shiplist, with some TMP sprinkled in. Some of my assistants are indeed TNG fans, but SFC3 did not hit them right. They like the micro-management that OP offers, and feel that SFC3 is too simplified.

Here's my personal take on SFC3..

I have done a big Mega Mod for it, and recently updated it to the 531 patch, currently in the top 10 downloads on SFC3 Files. I enjoyed the challenge of learning the specifics of SFC3 modding. This may or may not be a surprise to some, but I play OP a lot more than SFC3. I think that's because the feel of OP is more pleasurable than the feel of SFC3. Another reason for me, I think, is because not long after SFC3 was released, I became burned out on SFC and switched to Bridge Commander for my TNG fix - with its bright shiny graphics, etc.. during my BC run I did no SFC at all, until I got wind that a group of gamers had revived my TNG Mod for OP. I'm still doing BC, and am part of the BC2 project. I never got back into SFC3, although I support all the mods for it, as I do support the entire series.  Pelican, Nannerslug, and the Unity Team have done amazing things with SFC3. I, however, have no plans to take my MegaMod any further - even though I get lots of e-mail about it still.

In summary, there will always be differences of opinion regarding different versions of SFC, but we are essentialy all one community, and that's what I'm promoting.

I am also a #2?sorta.  I did play SFB twice many years back when I was in the navy.  I got tired of the accounting though and moved on rather quickly to D&D. I do maintain respect for the balance in SFB although based on many posts I have read over 6 years there were also balance problems in SFB for a time as well. 

As for SFC3 ? well ? I initially advocated it.  I played it for about two months.  Did real well?a lot better than I was doing when I first started playing SFC1.  But when the second wave/generation of tactics came out I got terribly discouraged and bored?as opposed to being discouraged and fascinated (with SFC1).    I remember two losses I had that really changed my mind?one came when I was when this dude warped in and started ?warbeling? around like some mad cockroach in a most unstarship like manner and another one where this dude surrounded me with mines and I realized I had no way to clear them except by running into them. 

For my money they simply didn?t include enough subgames to grab me any further than my initial flirtation with the game.  Two things I really liked about it was the ability to break the ?speed 31? barrier and the warping, which I thought was rather well done.  The big mistake I saw in the game, besides the elimination of T-bombs and other subgames, was the idea that ?shift? would be based angular velocity rather than a product of electronics.   

Anyway this is not to DIS SFC3; I am sure I would have stuck around longer had I found a set of tactics or a race that allowed me to play a strong game without all that angular velocity but there was SFC OP with literally hundreds of ships yet unexplored so why bother?  And that was BEFORE Firesoul?s mods.

Well if they ever decide to combine the SFC3/TNG  SFC/SFB concept I would say KEEP the warp, keep the cloak, and kill the speed 31 barrier and bring in the bolt.  Blah blah blah?

I sure wish I could find my original post ?.

[Merlinfmct87]

To go back to the original post..

There will always be a gap of sorts between the SFB people and the TNG people. With regards to the SFC series, there are basically two kinds of gamers.

1. The SFB board game players
2. Star Trek people who had never heard of SFB until they bought an SFC game.

I am #2.

but.. I repsect the heritage and tradition of SFB, even though I know almost nothing of it.

I am attempting to bridge the gap. If you look at the Gamespy rooms of late there are a great many people playing a TNG Mod for OP, and it looks like many of them are coming over from EAW. The Mod is mine, TNG evolving into Multi-Era. The mod puts it all together, SFB, TOS, TMP, and TNG all in 1 place. The people playing this mod are from many different fleets, and like the fact that I offer 2552, 3.3, and TNG in the same OP install.

The interesting thing about it is this:

The people helping me are amazing. They are mostly SFB purists, using modules to spec the Early era. For mid era I am using a lot of Firesoul's 3.3 shiplist, with some TMP sprinkled in. Some of my assistants are indeed TNG fans, but SFC3 did not hit them right. They like the micro-management that OP offers, and feel that SFC3 is too simplified.

Here's my personal take on SFC3..

I have done a big Mega Mod for it, and recently updated it to the 531 patch, currently in the top 10 downloads on SFC3 Files. I enjoyed the challenge of learning the specifics of SFC3 modding. This may or may not be a surprise to some, but I play OP a lot more than SFC3. I think that's because the feel of OP is more pleasurable than the feel of SFC3. Another reason for me, I think, is because not long after SFC3 was released, I became burned out on SFC and switched to Bridge Commander for my TNG fix - with its bright shiny graphics, etc.. during my BC run I did no SFC at all, until I got wind that a group of gamers had revived my TNG Mod for OP. I'm still doing BC, and am part of the BC2 project. I never got back into SFC3, although I support all the mods for it, as I do support the entire series.  Pelican, Nannerslug, and the Unity Team have done amazing things with SFC3. I, however, have no plans to take my MegaMod any further - even though I get lots of e-mail about it still.

In summary, there will always be differences of opinion regarding different versions of SFC, but we are essentialy all one community, and that's what I'm promoting.

I am also a #2?sorta.  I did play SFB twice many years back when I was in the navy.  I got tired of the accounting though and moved on rather quickly to D&D. I do maintain respect for the balance in SFB although based on many posts I have read over 6 years there were also balance problems in SFB for a time as well. 

As for SFC3 ? well ? I initially advocated it.  I played it for about two months.  Did real well?a lot better than I was doing when I first started playing SFC1.  But when the second wave/generation of tactics came out I got terribly discouraged and bored?as opposed to being discouraged and fascinated (with SFC1).    I remember two losses I had that really changed my mind?one came when I was when this dude warped in and started ?warbeling? around like some mad cockroach in a most unstarship like manner and another one where this dude surrounded me with mines and I realized I had no way to clear them except by running into them. 

For my money they simply didn?t include enough subgames to grab me any further than my initial flirtation with the game.  Two things I really liked about it was the ability to break the ?speed 31? barrier and the warping, which I thought was rather well done.  The big mistake I saw in the game, besides the elimination of T-bombs and other subgames, was the idea that ?shift? would be based angular velocity rather than a product of electronics.   

Anyway this is not to DIS SFC3; I am sure I would have stuck around longer had I found a set of tactics or a race that allowed me to play a strong game without all that angular velocity but there was SFC OP with literally hundreds of ships yet unexplored so why bother?  And that was BEFORE Firesoul?s mods.

Well if they ever decide to combine the SFC3/TNG  SFC/SFB concept I would say KEEP the warp, keep the cloak, and kill the speed 31 barrier and bring in the bolt.  Blah blah blah?

I sure wish I could find my original post ?.

In reply to Chris's post...yes you know next to nil about SFB, but you ask me many questions about it, and the mod is better because of it.
So yes, you are uneducated in SFB. That hasn't stopped SFB from being a marked infuence in the mod, as you said in your own post. I also agree wholeheartedly that oversimplification helps noone, least of which is the dedicated and loyal fanbase that follows the game.

But the blame for that lies at Activision's feet, and the debate belongs in another thread.

As for Rondo_GE's post, I don't find it suprising that SFB was overwhelming to you.

Yes, there's a lot of accounting. Yes, there's a lot of work to put into it. Yes, there's a lot of ways to bite the plasma.

That's half the fun!

Also, you get used to the accounting. I've seen games on SFBOL play out faster than SFC because the player's already knew the math and where they wanted to end up.

And the reason you abandoned SFC3 is the same reason you advocated it--it was simplified. Idiot's could now find some lame way to win in 3 minutes that never would have lasted 2 impulses in SFB/SFC OP.

And it's true that we are all one community--we had one central gathering place, when that went down, we found another one and made it ours. The sense of unity and community is palatable here.

But that does not mean that there cannot be fundamental differences between the forum members, what games they play, and what they look for in those games.

And I agree with you about keeping the Warp, cloak and the like. The Cloak is actually a lot closer to SFB--what with the Hidden Movement option.

In summary I don't think we sholuld make things simpler just because it's simple. I think that a challange makes for a better game, and you also come out better because of it.

Flexing the noggin is not a bad thing after all.

I don't think we should use SFC3 for a basis--there's arleady a great SFB/TNG conversion on the books that I have plastered all over this board already--that also is the product of at least 4 years of work and is more well thought out.

[GFL Offkey]

Ok, My input.
The Gfl Galactic Foriegn Legion has thier own private Mod. As for SFC3 being point and shoot? Well weve modified the game to where you better have tactics and especially fleet tactics or youre toast.
The unity group knows what our baseline mod was but we are entering version 2.0. You can ask any GFL Member that SFC3 is just as tactical as previous versions and we also run on sql without issues.
the only thing the game needed was fixes for connection between players.

There will be an SFC 4 Legions at war. Where? Wtih the GFL and thats what keeps our group interested. We have scripters, modelers, editers ect. we have actually changed the mechanics of the ai and how they react. Lets see you survive a Ai that actually warps on you tractors you and kills you in 3 volleys and at the same time multitargeting your fellow partners Knowing what to do next. Its very wicked game when modded correctly.

SFB is a respectable game but I would rather see my target. previous versions of sfc had poor graphics in my book the only thing they lacked in sfc3 was more races to fit the new era. Also it is not true 3-D.
Homeworld is true 3-D. that is where most go wrong movement should be any direction in a sphere of space and not simulated 3-D movement.

I have almost every trek game made and play sfc3 the most.

each person has thier opinion and thats good but all opinions should be respectful and clean I see many who are hotheads and have no reason to be. We are all gamers we justlike different preferences.

Lets all show respect for each other and respect for taldren as they did what they could. I say though Sue the pants of Activision for its lousy support for the gaming community, False advertisement and the worst customer support in the nation. If they would continually support thier games they would be played longer but thats another story.

<S> To all the gamers as we are the reason we are all here today.

[Merlinfmct87]

<S> To all the gamers as we are the reason we are all here today.

<S> right back at you. Thank you very much.

Merlin

[Red_Green]

A community of gamers. I am starting to feel all warm and fuzzy.   

[_Rondo_GE The OutLaw]

I wouldn't say for me that it was overwhelming.  I started gaming with chess and Naval simulations and was attracted to SFB because on the surface it looked a lot like those two games.  In the navy we had a small group of "gamers" that was primarily interested in the depth of tactics and strategy these games had to offer.  SFB could match the level of tactics and strategy but few of us had the time to beat the learning curve neccessary to get these ships to behave in the way we wanted to so we could engage our real interest in playing the game at it's tactical level.  Also in the beginning there were too many accounting errors that lead to serious and unfriendly "squabbles" between players...and even accusations of cheating.   That was an experience unknown to our little group until we tried our hand at SFB.

Perhaps in a different environment things would have turned out differently.  But that's the past.

As I recall I came out for SFC3 before i actually played the game.  I you might imagine there was mucho discussion about the game before it's release and HOT debate throughout the community.  Taldren was being very coy (perhaps not the right eord) about getting out details and did not release a demo (THAT should have told me something).  So my decision to advocate the game was more philisophical than anything else...why DIS a game nobody had actually played?

When the game came out most of us spent a whole mess of time just trying to "build" our ships and experiment with combinations (weapons, shields, etc.) that worked best.    Matches were more "SFC2ish" at first, with ships flying around subwarp and little use of angular velocity or mines.  Slow speeds attacks and even a kind of "starcastling" was popular as I recall.   Then after a few months the newer tactics started to emerge and when I saw them I realized that it just wasn't my cup of tea.  Another thing that hurt was, at least when I played it, a lack of game films so you could learn by your mistakes and also watch how other players maneuvered and played.  They may have fixed that by now.

Anyway I still have SFC3 and will probably give it another go.  The problem here is that you really have to spend time building your ships to even have half decent chance of playing well.  If you use the generic ones they give you you are dead...dead on arrival.

[Merlinfmct87]

I wouldn't say for me that it was overwhelming.  I started gaming with chess and Naval simulations and was attracted to SFB because on the surface it looked a lot like those two games.  In the navy we had a small group of "gamers" that was primarily interested in the depth of tactics and strategy these games had to offer.  SFB could match the level of tactics and strategy but few of us had the time to beat the learning curve neccessary to get these ships to behave in the way we wanted to so we could engage our real interest in playing the game at it's tactical level.  Also in the beginning there were too many accounting errors that lead to serious and unfriendly "squabbles" between players...and even accusations of cheating.   That was an experience unknown to our little group until we tried our hand at SFB.

Perhaps in a different environment things would have turned out differently.  But that's the past.

As I recall I came out for SFC3 before i actually played the game.  I you might imagine there was mucho discussion about the game before it's release and HOT debate throughout the community.  Taldren was being very coy (perhaps not the right eord) about getting out details and did not release a demo (THAT should have told me something).  So my decision to advocate the game was more philisophical than anything else...why DIS a game nobody had actually played?

When the game came out most of us spent a whole mess of time just trying to "build" our ships and experiment with combinations (weapons, shields, etc.) that worked best.    Matches were more "SFC2ish" at first, with ships flying around subwarp and little use of angular velocity or mines.  Slow speeds attacks and even a kind of "starcastling" was popular as I recall.   Then after a few months the newer tactics started to emerge and when I saw them I realized that it just wasn't my cup of tea.  Another thing that hurt was, at least when I played it, a lack of game films so you could learn by your mistakes and also watch how other players maneuvered and played.  They may have fixed that by now.

Anyway I still have SFC3 and will probably give it another go.  The problem here is that you really have to spend time building your ships to even have half decent chance of playing well.  If you use the generic ones they give you you are dead...dead on arrival.

If you were around people who lept at the mere scent of cheating, you're around the wrong people. I've been spending time on SFBOL, where sanctioned Tournaments are commonplace, and the users have been holding my hand while I make blunder after blunder, repeadedly accidently breaking the rules.

They have been the most patient and helpful community I have had the pleasure to be in.

As for why dis a game that nobody has played...

1) No drones
2) No Gorn, No Andro's, No Tholians.
3) No More SFB

So there was plenty wrong and objectable with SFC3 from the get-go.

[GFL Offkey]

Show me any startrek film or series where klingons had drones.
the gorn werent a very apparent race. as matter of fact they were almost obliterated if not for kirk
I say if the game was based on the series then only 4 of the races would be in any game
fed kliink rom vulcan
later eras
fed klink rom vulcan dominion cardassian ferengi borg
thats not to many

[Merlinfmct87]

Actually, I'm pretty sure the Animated series followed SFB rather closely...the Kzinti even showed up there once.

Anyhow, why condemn SFB for improving on trek?

Merlin

[Desty Nova]

Show me any startrek film or series where klingons had drones.
the gorn werent a very apparent race. as matter of fact they were almost obliterated if not for kirk
I say if the game was based on the series then only 4 of the races would be in any game
fed kliink rom vulcan
later eras
fed klink rom vulcan dominion cardassian ferengi borg
thats not to many

Well considering SFB was made in 1975, there weren't a whole lot of official sources to base the game on. TOS, TAS, Franz Joseph's Technical Manual, and the D7 and War Eagle blueprints were pretty much it. Most everything in the game was derived from those, long before TNG.

It's comforting to know that no matter how much Voyager, Enterprise, or any of the new Treks suck, I will always have SFB, untouchable by Paramount... 

[FPF-DieHard]

Anyhow, why condemn SFB for improving on trek?

Oh My, that is a quote to remember!!!!