Topic: OP Patch Status?

[jdmckinney]

FS, if you mean the suggestion to use one cartel blanketing the map instead of all neutral, there are similar problems -- if it is allied to all, the net change of zero situation comes up. If it an enemy to all, players hurt their own empire DVs, but not until the cartel underneath is flipped neutral. What I'd like to see tried is having an all-neutral cartel layer that is actually NEUTRAL. The way the .gf settings work for politics makes this a little difficult, since all relationships are calculated as percentages. I've always said a much better political tension assignment would be strict values, so 500 is neutral, 1000 is mortal enemy, 0 is long-term ally, and anything either side of 500 is an increasing friendship or enemy relation to the extreme points of 0 and 1000. Of course, we don't have that system, and won't, so what to do? With careful manipulation, we could get truly neutral neutrals, I think, so it's at least worth a shot. I'm skeptical about how successful this would be, but at least it is something else to try.

Moggy, I totally agree with you -- the parts system should be reasonably regulated, and double the damage control rating seems fair. I was under the impression the parts ARE determined by the damage control value. If not, what IS controlling it? We all know where 8 came from (number able to be shown in the repair screen), but can someone explain to me how any given ship's parts limits are calculated?

According to my specs, a Z-CVA has a damage control of 9 in OP. Assuming that's right, how many does it get in GSA (and thus would get if OP D2 received full spares capacity)? If we doubled these figures, the CVA would end up with 18 possible spares. An L-FF with a damage control of 3 would get 6 possible spares -- what does it get now?

You're right about the costs of spares -- mission hosts would be able to "steal" spares off of AIs, but nobody else would be able to do so (or has the host-only transporter display bug been squashed?). At least if everyone could do it, it would make for an interesting little mini-game within the battle. Also, small ship captains would have less prestige to throw into buying spares.

Unfortunately, we're never going to get rid of this poor repair system, so can anyone come up with a way to improve it within the limitations? For instance, can we somehow use the ship damage control specs to force a ship size class-based stepping of spare parts? A DD could get 4, a CA 8, a BCH 12, a DN 16, a BB 20, or somesuch. I still don't like that a large ship gets penalized by the spare part limit. Still, if I had to choose between penalizing big ships and penalizing small ones, I'd choose the former -- those small ships need as much help as possible when the big-ship nutters dominate a campaign.

[Mog]

Doug, there's a thread http://bozobits.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1441&highlight=spare+parts in which Chris Lee did some testing, although some anomalies were also discovered. It's something we're stuck with in EAW, and I sincerely hope that it doesn't get put into OP. If it does then it kills the saber dance as a viable tactic in OP imho. May as well fly a droner and just overload their repair ability with bucketloads of type IV drones - how varied that will be, sigh.

[jdmckinney]

Moggy, thanks for the reference. I'll check it out.

A little bird tells me this fix may already be in place somewhere in testing -- you might want to petition Taldren directly for reversion or an alternate system (or fix). If it's causing that much trouble in D2 missions, it really should be examined more closely.

[Mog]

Doug, if it's already in then I very much doubt that they'd take it out, especially as the player base is split between wanting low numbers and high numbers of magic screws.

Not to worry, Freelancer is proving to be an extremely enjoyable, addictive and playable experience, with continuous space, more than 6 people in battles etc.

[jdmckinney]

Well, I'm unnerved by the fact that nobody appears to be able to figure out exactly how the ships get the number of maximum spares they do. Even that SFC2.net thread didn't come up with anything difinitive. It makes it difficult to tell if a thing is working right or balanced if there is no calculation we can use to check the results.

[Carrie]

Bump

[Holocat]

What?!  A DD with only 4 magic screws?

*screams and dies*

That's a bit harsh.

I'm definately no authority on this, playing only feds/hydrans/lyrans, and playing light ships only (where there are much less spare parts) but I generally don't encounter this "Cabable of repairing his way to victory" problem.  They repair for awhile, but for both me and him parts get pretty thin pretty fast in a pitched battle.  It can mean the difference between victory and defeat, but in my experience, only very closely pitched battles.

Isn't this a problem already for all dizzy users?  I mean, you only hit 4-3 d6 per dizzy per volley at saber dancing range, which means that you're going to, in effect, Mizia someone to death.  It can't worm its way up the DAC quite as ferociously as a dreaded mirak's type IV missle spread, which would mean that you don't just get the benefit of being able to hit those critical systems again and again, you HAVE to hit those systems again and again.  Couple that with the fact that the systems you're hitting are much less of the time power systems, and being able to get to speed (but having no weapons, hull or bridge) seems more a normal precipitation of what should be happening as opposed to a horrendous bug.

Aren't doubled internals still in effect?  If so, that would be more of an impediment than the magic screws.

Since this seems to be the current topic of debate, I must say that I am opposed to having tiny spare part hatches.  It might mean the difference between a disabled (and escaped) and a destroyed vessel to you, but it means the difference between barely surviving and being blown to bits for a small ship captain like me;  Small spare part hatches hurt light element commanders more than heavy element ones, if there wasn't enough *already* to discourage light ship use.

This is also completely off topic, but since we've wandered away from patching status for some time now, I feel comfortable in speaking about it.  Do crew experience ratings go up with one's rank in OP?  I don't know if anyone's noticed, but if one's an admiral, it's seemingly much easier to turn a F-DD than at the time when one was a Lt. Commander.  If true, this would be another factor why big ships survive more than little ships (the people being able to afford big ships being, generally, higher in rank than the ones with little ships).

This is even MORE of topic, but saying BUMP isn't verbose enough for me today, so i'll ramble on.  What happens when you lose all those points in a critical system?  If you lose all the hull points, i'm aware that other than having to move deeper into the DAC, nothing happens.  Losing sensors makes you (supposedly) lose missle control and electronic warfare and losing labs can impact on shield regeneration.  What happens when all the Bridge points are lost?  Do you *really* lose EW ablities/ missle control when you lose sensors?

Anyway, for people who skim posts, in summary:

1.  I prefer small ships.  Small ships are nice.  

2.  Saberdancing seems to work the way it's supposed to (against me, anyway).

3.  I want to keep all the spare parts I have.  Gimme back my magik screws.  

4.  Do crew experience ratings go up as you raise in rank?  Tasks *do* seem to become easier...

5.  what happens when all the points in sensors/bridge/other-critical-system-of-your-choice leave, other than moving up the DAC?

The most verbose bump this side of a forum,

Holocat.

PS.  You forced your opponent to retreat, didn't you?  You won, right?  What's so incredibly unjust at merely having them retreat before you?  Isn't the victory proof that saberdancing does work, as opposed to does not?





 

[Cleaven]

To get to the core of the question about number of spares. Players of small ships have noticed that the outcomes are now different when everybody is carrying 40 spares compared to when it used ot be 8 spares. When less spares were available the ships would soon reach a decision point as one or the other ran out quickly after a couple of good hits. Now the number of good hits required to finish off another small ship is much greater and the average small ship behaves as if it has much greater durability than it used to. A problem I noticed was with the plasma races. By the time the plasma had recharged the other ship would have all it's damage repaired while a phaser-boater could keep the damage up and get a kill by exceeding the repair rate of it's target.  A win by endurance that wasn't there before and alters the balance a little bit.  

[Mog]

Holocat: yes I won by forcing my opponent to retreat. However, on that particular server, DNs/CVAs were worth Victory Points if destroyed, but you got nothing if they escaped. Therefore, being able to fully repair warp engines (something which should only be possible at a starbase/shipyard) by dint of having so many repairs, cost my side those points.

I will also note that PF tenders managed to register some DN kills on that server, because they could inflict enough damage to gut the target so it couldn't escape. I suppose, therefore, that my complaint is my own fault, because I like to fly non DN/non carrier ships, and rely on my skill rather than ai help i.e. I try to play the game without resorting to what is commonly termed "cheese".  

[Can-able]

Quote:
I try to play the game without resorting to what is commonly termed "cheese".  

Laugh it up cheese ball !!!! (Think Han to Chewwy)

Any way Hornets arn't cheese They are  just mean Dairylee slices  

Sorry i am bored and can't be arsed to come up with some thing constructice.....

O i agree with Moggy on the screw thinggy...to many is just silly  

[Holocat]

Wait, fourty screws on a small ship?

*actually loads OP and looks at the Ye Magikal Screwe compliment*

Oh, I see why this bothers you so much more than me.  In Orion Pirates, ship class determines max spare part capacity.

For frigates and destroyers it's 15, for cruisers it's 20 and for dreadnoughts and carriers it's 35.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that in EAW everything can carry fourty screws, from the FF to the CV.  In a tiny ship I would say yes, fourty screws would be a bit too many, though since I play fed, and thus usually have enough crunch to deal with 'repairing to victory.'  I can see this would be a problem for the crunch-challanged ships of the Klingons; doubled internals AND fourty screws?  That's just plain amusing.  Of couse, 35 isn't that much less than 40, so it might still be a problem if you were to fight a DN for crunch-challanged ships.

In OP i've only got 15 in my little destroyer, and like you've said, i've noticed that combats are usually a little longer than when we had 8.  Then again, I find AMD impacts on survivability far more than the screw limits;  Slightly longer for small ship battles, yes.  Less decisive?  Usually no.

All truth told, i'd be perfectly happy with ten or so screws, but FOUR?!  I still think that's way too few.

Hehehehe!  A destroyer with fourty screws!  That's so funny, (where do I sign up? )

Holocat.

[Cleaven]

Be aware that you get different maximum spares for the single player and multiplayer games. Why is the D2 different? Don't know and it would probably make my head hurt a lot to find out.  

[Carrie]

All right. I have OP Loaded up to 2.5.2.5. How do I disable all but /one/ cartel?

I had it hit me earlier today, how to do it, after the discussion about having one cartel mapwide, and having it allied to everyone wouldn't help.

That's wen it hit me. If I put in one cartel/keep all cartels, and have them allied only to the empire I'm playing at the time, will that help it? It sounds like its practically a cheat, but it hit me that it might alsl be the way to keep it from losing my hexes after I take them.

Also, where does 'Orion' in Metamap fit in. With OrionOrion as a separate group, and such?

*thought three* If I set it so it doesn't add much tension after battle, would it work if the cartels were all listed as allied to the emp, even if the emp itself listed the cartels as enemies?

[FireSoul]

I think the D2 works well in single player.
It's on the server side that there's a problem.

[Carrie]

No, it doesn't. It has the same problems with Empire/Cartel hex interaction that the online D2 has. Specifically, you can't hold the damned hexes. That's why I asked about fixes for the next patches.

And I'm trying to fix it, so I don't lose everything I gain in two seconds.

For another quick question, what's the load order for .gf files in OP? I'd like to have some guess at what file is bad, when it crashes partway through campaign loadup... I figure if it crashes on clicking 'start', its a different file being a problem, than if it crashes at the middle, or at the end.

[Rondo_GE]

Never is the word your looking for.

N  E  V  E  R



 

[Qob'nuH]

Too important a  topic to let it slip to the back pages.  

[Carrie]

Re: Rondo_GE: Die screaming.

I will not let this thread die. Ever. Not even if it means an unscheduled trip to Taldren myself.

[Holocat]

Quote:
 If I put in one cartel/keep all cartels, and have them allied only to the empire I'm playing at the time, will that help it? It sounds like its practically a cheat, but it hit me that it might alsl be the way to keep it from losing my hexes after I take them.

 

From what I understand, this would be the general outcome:

If you win a mission, you and your cartel win, so you can take sectors and raise/lower DV normally.  

If an enemy empire attacks either his own hexes or yours, he wins and cartel looses, no DV change, though cartel DV may go down. (and eventually result in the neutral hex bug)

So it would seem that you could take and hold sectors, but no one else could, which is perfectly OK in single player.

And OP D2 whether it's single or multi-player is bugged;  If you play a standard map long enough as an empire, you'll notice that the empires will shrink over time, eventually to the point where they only cover the same hexes as the underlying cartel does.  I found it cute, but I think most people find it aggravating.

I also still believe that flipping the empires to the cartel layer and the cartels to the empire layer the last best hope for fixing OP D2.

The story of OP's patch adventure is beginning to sound like a biblical epic,

Holocat.

 

[Klingon Fanatic]

BUMP for news!

I'm pretty sure this patch in progress is a year old now....

Qa pla!

KF