Topic: DeBorging the Borg  (Read 6223 times)

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mdutr0

  • Guest
DeBorging the Borg
« on: May 09, 2004, 04:48:23 pm »
 I heard that there was a way to make the borg lose their hull regeneration and behave like regular ships (i.e. banking while turning etc).  How does one do that?

Thanks,

Micah  

Cleaven

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2004, 05:11:48 pm »
Does that sound like item 6 in the patch readme file?  

MrCue

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2004, 05:18:18 pm »
Assets\CommonSettings\HullItems.gf
Find at the bottom

[BorgArmor]
DoesRegen=1

1 = Borg / On
0 = Non-Borg / Off

Praxis

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2004, 07:38:45 pm »
Normal ships *don't* bank unless they're in atmosphere.  In space, there's no reason to bank.

Federation ships just don't obey the laws of physics :P

InragedSith

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2004, 10:06:57 pm »
Star Trek in general doesn't obey the laws of physics

So I have no problem with banking ships
 

SSCF_LeRoy

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2004, 10:32:26 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Normal ships *don't* bank unless they're in atmosphere.  In space, there's no reason to bank.

Federation ships just don't obey the laws of physics :P  




Star Trek in general doesn't obey the laws of physics

So I have no problem with banking ships




Starships bank in order to bring weapons into arc, of course
 

Magnum357

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2004, 01:04:56 am »
Guys, the reason why ships bank in SFC is that the basic engine is based on the old SFB rules.  SFB explained that the reason why ships bank like ships in water is because they are moving at such high velocity that it takes time and energy too turn.  In SFB, the Warp engines help augment movement through space by lowering the initial mass of the vessel so that the Impulse engines can move the ship at high velocities.  At such high volocities, ships in SFB can't turn on a dime so they have too "Bank" in order too turn.  Rockets and the Space Shuttles need thrust too turn them in space.  In Star Trek and SFB, since the ships are moving so fast (hunderes too thousands of Kilometers per second at Impulse speeds) that the ship would crush like and egg if you turned the ship sharply.  That is why in SFB (and in SFC3) they have what is called the "High Energy Turn" or HET.  It focuses a huge amount of  the energy from the engines into the Y axis of the ship while moving in order to turn it extremely sharply.  

Praxis

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2004, 01:26:15 am »
Quote:

Guys, the reason why ships bank in SFC is that the basic engine is based on the old SFB rules.  SFB explained that the reason why ships bank like ships in water is because they are moving at such high velocity that it takes time and energy too turn.  In SFB, the Warp engines help augment movement through space by lowering the initial mass of the vessel so that the Impulse engines can move the ship at high velocities.  At such high volocities, ships in SFB can't turn on a dime so they have too "Bank" in order too turn.  Rockets and the Space Shuttles need thrust too turn them in space.  In Star Trek and SFB, since the ships are moving so fast (hunderes too thousands of Kilometers per second at Impulse speeds) that the ship would crush like and egg if you turned the ship sharply.  That is why in SFB (and in SFC3) they have what is called the "High Energy Turn" or HET.  It focuses a huge amount of  the energy from the engines into the Y axis of the ship while moving in order to turn it extremely sharply.    





Still defies physics.

If you have thrusters that turn the ship, even if it takes a lot of energy, they will turn around their center of gravity, like the Borg in SFC3.

In SFC3, if you have a fed ship sit still, and tell it to turn 90 degrees to the right...it will turn on it's side and bank like a fighter on a wing.  Even if it takes time and energy to turn, it will rotate on its axis, albiet slowly, like the Borg ships (never see them bank).

There is absolutely no reason for them to bank on a wing like an airplane,

Death_Merchant

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2004, 01:36:42 am »
Mags is confusing SFB "turn mode" with the graphical "banking" in SFC when a ship is turning.
We still love him anyway....

And spaceships banking like airplanes (thank you George Lucas and Star Wars) in space is silly, but we still like it.  

Cleaven

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2004, 01:47:02 am »
Quote:

Guys, the reason why ships bank in SFC is that the basic engine is based on the old SFB rules.  SFB explained that the reason why ships bank like ships in water is because they are moving at such high velocity that it takes time and energy too turn.  In SFB, the Warp engines help augment movement through space by lowering the initial mass of the vessel so that the Impulse engines can move the ship at high velocities.  At such high volocities, ships in SFB can't turn on a dime so they have too "Bank" in order too turn.  Rockets and the Space Shuttles need thrust too turn them in space.  In Star Trek and SFB, since the ships are moving so fast (hunderes too thousands of Kilometers per second at Impulse speeds) that the ship would crush like and egg if you turned the ship sharply.  That is why in SFB (and in SFC3) they have what is called the "High Energy Turn" or HET.  It focuses a huge amount of  the energy from the engines into the Y axis of the ship while moving in order to turn it extremely sharply.    




You'll have to enlightment me as to where in the SFB rules or Captains Logs this is.  

Cleaven

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2004, 01:50:48 am »
Quote:

Mags is confusing SFB "turn mode" with the graphical "banking" in SFC when a ship is turning.
We still love him anyway....

And spaceships banking like airplanes (thank you George Lucas and Star Wars) in space is silly, but we still like it.  




Uh yep.  

And hands up who wants to play a real physics sub-light space combat game?  

Windfox

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2004, 03:41:49 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Mags is confusing SFB "turn mode" with the graphical "banking" in SFC when a ship is turning.
We still love him anyway....

And spaceships banking like airplanes (thank you George Lucas and Star Wars) in space is silly, but we still like it.  




Uh yep.  

And hands up who wants to play a real physics sub-light space combat game?  




Harrington-verse(as in Honor Harrington).  Nuff said.  

The_Pelican

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2004, 05:43:24 am »
Why do the ships bank in Star Trek?

Simple - because it looks good.

They don't have to bank, but they do anyway.

Bonk

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2004, 05:48:14 am »
 
Quote:

 There is absolutely no reason for them to bank on a wing like an airplane,  




Crew inertia.  

David Ferrell

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2004, 09:11:26 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Mags is confusing SFB "turn mode" with the graphical "banking" in SFC when a ship is turning.
We still love him anyway....

And spaceships banking like airplanes (thank you George Lucas and Star Wars) in space is silly, but we still like it.  




Uh yep.  

And hands up who wants to play a real physics sub-light space combat game?  




I do, but they cancelled B5: Into the Fire.

Yep they bank because it looks good.  They bank in the shows, they bank in the game.

Thanks,

Dave

Scipio_66

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2004, 09:57:17 am »
Quote:


Uh yep.  

And hands up who wants to play a real physics sub-light space combat game?  




If you want to do it on the tabletop, Full Thrust does a fairly decent job.  Once you start moving in one direction, you keep moving in that direction (at the same speed) until you expend thrust to change your vector.  Movement for each turn is pre-plotted, and conducted simultaneously.  Watching two opposing fleets try to manuever to both stay in formation and point themselves at the enemy can be entertaining.

It's far from perfect, but it does get the point across.  It's also a fun game.

-S'Cipio  

Mog

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2004, 10:48:15 am »
Wasn't one of the Elite sequels like that? Combat sucked in it, I know that, compared to the first Elite, which was a pity because the rest of the changes were great (could change your ship, more jobs, factions etc).

Praxis

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2004, 11:15:59 am »
Quote:



If you want to do it on the tabletop, Full Thrust does a fairly decent job.  Once you start moving in one direction, you keep moving in that direction (at the same speed) until you expend thrust to change your vector.  Movement for each turn is pre-plotted, and conducted simultaneously.  Watching two opposing fleets try to manuever to both stay in formation and point themselves at the enemy can be entertaining.

It's far from perfect, but it does get the point across.  It's also a fun game.

-S'Cipio  




Wow.  A game that actually obeys the laws of physics.

Anyone ever notice how when in Star Trek a ship turns off its engines, it stops?  By intertia, it should keep going straight after the engines are turned off unless they use braking thrusters.

Lieutenant_Q

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2004, 12:02:45 pm »
I think it can be explained (non-canonly of course) as an active warp field creates a subspace drag, which would also explain why impulse fuel is expended constantly while at impulse, instead of simply reaching the desired speed and shutting the engines off.  Of course, it can also be put down to the early writers had no clue what they were talking about when it comes to space travel and later writers had no choice but to continue the trend.

Inertia, was used correctly in The Battle, Picard tells Riker to turn off the Tractor beam on the Stargazer, and let her inertia carry her along, which would seem to support the active warp field theory.  

Praxis

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2004, 12:25:10 pm »
Quote:

I think it can be explained (non-canonly of course) as an active warp field creates a subspace drag, which would also explain why impulse fuel is expended constantly while at impulse, instead of simply reaching the desired speed and shutting the engines off.  Of course, it can also be put down to the early writers had no clue what they were talking about when it comes to space travel and later writers had no choice but to continue the trend.

Inertia, was used correctly in The Battle, Picard tells Riker to turn off the Tractor beam on the Stargazer, and let her inertia carry her along, which would seem to support the active warp field theory.    




Yeah but when you're at impulse you're not using a warp field.

Also, there's no such thing as a "Maximum speed".  If the engines are turned to maximum, you'll keep accelerating (think of the graph of the square root of x)- more powerful engines accelerate faster.  You'd keep accelerating and accelerating and accelerating, getting closer and closer to lightspeed.  Maybe after a couple years accelerating you'd eventually reach .99999 lightspeed...getting closer and closer to lightspeed, but never making it.

Anyway, when there's a pursuit in ST, the ship with a faster engine would accelerate faster, and therefore would be gaining at a much faster rate.

DH123

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2004, 12:26:24 pm »
This is from http://www.ditl.org .   The description actually makes sense in the SFC dynamic.


The basics of Impulse Engine design as employed by the United Federation of Planets, and most other major powers,  have remained more or less static for almost a century now. In general, Impulse engines consist of four main components :
The fuel tank contains the reactants used within the engine. Starfleet uses simple Deuterium fuel - less efficient than a Deuterium/Tritium mix, but Deuterium is far easier to produce and handle than Tritium, while using only one type of fuel eliminates the necessity for two independent sets of fuel storage and handling systems within the ship.

Once the fuel has left the tanks, it is reduced in temperature to form pellets of solid Deuterium ice of variable diameter. These are fired into the reactor where a set of fusion initiators are used to ignite the pellet whilst a magnetic field holds them in place. The Deuterium atoms are fused together in part according to the equation :



Which gives the conversion of mass to energy a theoretical maximum efficiency of 0.08533% -in practice other reactions and engine design produces different efficiencies. The standard Impulse fusion reactor as used in the Galaxy class Starship is a sphere six metres in diameter, constructed of dispersion-strengthened hafnium excelinide. The reactors can be networked together, with each one passing its plasma output to another in a cascade fashion. Each of the eight Impulse engines on a Galaxy class starship has three fusion reactors connected together in this manner.

Once the Deuterium has fused successfully, the plasma stream created is passed through the next major component - the space-time driver coil. Under the Einsteinian physics which holds true for objects at sub-warp velocities it is virtually impossible for a simple fusion rocket to deliver sufficient energy to accelerate a spacecraft to near light speed - the fuel requirements rapidly increase to the point where the large majority of the vessel would be dedicated to fuel tankage.The coil avoids this situation by generating a sub-warp cochrane field around the vessel, reducing its effective mass in order to boost the acceleration.

Actual Impulse flight performance is therefore dependant not only on the specifications of the fusion reactors, but also on the capabilities of the driver coils. One of the fastest ships ever fielded in terms of Impulse performance was the refit Constitution class. This ship was capable of reaching 'Full Impulse' (25% c) in a matter of seconds. At the other end of the scale the much later Ambassador class was designed to achieve a far more lowly acceleration of 10,000 ms-2, sufficient to reach Full Impulse in 125 minutes.

Once the plasma stream has passed through the driver coil assembly, it reaches the exhaust port and passes into space. If the coil itself is not engaged, the Impulse Engine reverts to behaving like a simple Newtonian fusion rocket with a performance thousands of times less than its normal capabilities. Under these circumstances the exhaust system is designed to vector the thrust of the engine in order to correct for unusual mass distributions or provide off-axis thrust for enhanced agility.

At velocities which are an appreciable fraction of that of light, time dilation becomes a factor for Starship crews. When a ship travels very near to the velocity of light, this effect can become very significant. For example, at the 92% c which is the maximum velocity of the Galaxy class Starship over 2.5 days would pass for a stationary observer for each day which passed for the crew. In order to keep these effects below a 3.5% time differential, the Federation has long imposed a ban on Impulse flight above velocities of 0.25 c - so called "Full Impulse" - on all normal missions. While this restriction is not applicable during combat operations, the effects of time dilation can have extremely adverse effects on a vessel in these conditions - a crew can find themselves in a position where their reaction time will be greatly reduced compared to an enemy because of the difference in velocities between them. High relativistic speeds are therefore generally avoided altogether by Starships.

Early space vessels had to mount so called "retro-rockets" in order to slow themselves down as they approached their destination, or else turn their craft backwards and use the main engines to slow down. One further advantage of utilizing the driver coil in an Impulse engine is that this rather cumbersome requirement is removed. The driver coil essentially allows the ship to reduce its mass in order to allow a - relatively - small amount of kinetic energy to create a great deal of velocity. Once the coil is discharged, the ship returns rapidly to its normal mass. The kinetic energy remains constant, so the velocity is vastly reduced without any need to use the engines thrust.

In theory, the coil alone could be used to drive the ship by simply adjusting the mass so that the velocity reaches the desired level. In practice, however, it is not that simple. The coil cannot be simply turned up and down as required, but is rather discharged and then recharged by the flow of plasma through it - essentially, by the normal operation of the impulse engine. It is thus not possible to 'tune' a ships mass up and down as required. Overcoming this limitation has been the holy grail of Impulse engine designers for well over a century, but as yet no progress has been made.
 
 

Praxis

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2004, 02:41:57 pm »
I really don't know how much of that to believe.

Only a couple sentences are in yellow, aka canon.

Half the article is in green, aka backstage source...not canon, just ideas from some of the writers that were never said on the shows.

A huge chunk of it is in white, the DITL guy's own speculation.

That's why I detest DITL.  He mixes canon in with non-canon and with speculation, trying to trick the reader and hoping they don't read the footnote (white = speculation).

For example, check out the Galaxy class.  Length, beam, and height are  backstage, decks are canon.   The fact that it has 2 photon torpedo tubes is backstage (and wrong, it has at least 3, two in front, one or two in rear).  The type of torpedoes (Type 3) is his speculation, as is the RIDICULOUS damage levels on the phasers of 50,000 terrawatts when Riker clearly stated that 1 terrawatt is more than the entire ship can produce, and Data said their ship produces 600 gigawatts.

Holocat

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2004, 05:50:48 am »
Quote:

Quote:


Uh yep.  

And hands up who wants to play a real physics sub-light space combat game?  




If you want to do it on the tabletop, Full Thrust does a fairly decent job.  Once you start moving in one direction, you keep moving in that direction (at the same speed) until you expend thrust to change your vector.  Movement for each turn is pre-plotted, and conducted simultaneously.  Watching two opposing fleets try to manuever to both stay in formation and point themselves at the enemy can be entertaining.

It's far from perfect, but it does get the point across.  It's also a fun game.

-S'Cipio  




Star Control! :3

Mike H

  • Guest
Re:Banking
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2004, 08:39:32 pm »
Quote:

Normal ships *don't* bank unless they're in atmosphere.  In space, there's no reason to bank.




If you're talking pure Newtonian physics, rolling (a.k.a. "banking") could possibly be advantageous if your ship could generate more force ( turn faster) with dorsal/ventral thrusters than you could with the tail and lateral thrust.  Probably doubtful, but not impossible.

Force x Arm = Moment

Factors:  How far from the center of gravity (arm) are the tail (and lateral) thrusters?  How powerful are the tail thrusters compared to thrusters on the other axes of the ship, etc...etc...

And there is of course the possibility of damaged thrusters in battle, in which case the ship may end up turning better using other methods than yawing only around the vertical (yaw) axis!

 


     

Praxis

  • Guest
Re:Banking
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2004, 01:53:21 pm »
Yeah but the designers would have to be utterly stupid to put more powerful thrusters there than on the engines in the back of the ship.

In that case the ship could go faster moving sideways :P

But wait, the designers would have to be stupid to put Jeffries tubes through the whole ship and put all the access panels for systems in the Jeffries tubes, so we know they are stupid already :P

mdutr0

  • Guest
DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2004, 04:48:23 pm »
 I heard that there was a way to make the borg lose their hull regeneration and behave like regular ships (i.e. banking while turning etc).  How does one do that?

Thanks,

Micah  

Cleaven

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2004, 05:11:48 pm »
Does that sound like item 6 in the patch readme file?  

MrCue

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2004, 05:18:18 pm »
Assets\CommonSettings\HullItems.gf
Find at the bottom

[BorgArmor]
DoesRegen=1

1 = Borg / On
0 = Non-Borg / Off

Praxis

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2004, 07:38:45 pm »
Normal ships *don't* bank unless they're in atmosphere.  In space, there's no reason to bank.

Federation ships just don't obey the laws of physics :P

InragedSith

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2004, 10:06:57 pm »
Star Trek in general doesn't obey the laws of physics

So I have no problem with banking ships
 

SSCF_LeRoy

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2004, 10:32:26 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Normal ships *don't* bank unless they're in atmosphere.  In space, there's no reason to bank.

Federation ships just don't obey the laws of physics :P  




Star Trek in general doesn't obey the laws of physics

So I have no problem with banking ships




Starships bank in order to bring weapons into arc, of course
 

Magnum357

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2004, 01:04:56 am »
Guys, the reason why ships bank in SFC is that the basic engine is based on the old SFB rules.  SFB explained that the reason why ships bank like ships in water is because they are moving at such high velocity that it takes time and energy too turn.  In SFB, the Warp engines help augment movement through space by lowering the initial mass of the vessel so that the Impulse engines can move the ship at high velocities.  At such high volocities, ships in SFB can't turn on a dime so they have too "Bank" in order too turn.  Rockets and the Space Shuttles need thrust too turn them in space.  In Star Trek and SFB, since the ships are moving so fast (hunderes too thousands of Kilometers per second at Impulse speeds) that the ship would crush like and egg if you turned the ship sharply.  That is why in SFB (and in SFC3) they have what is called the "High Energy Turn" or HET.  It focuses a huge amount of  the energy from the engines into the Y axis of the ship while moving in order to turn it extremely sharply.  

Praxis

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2004, 01:26:15 am »
Quote:

Guys, the reason why ships bank in SFC is that the basic engine is based on the old SFB rules.  SFB explained that the reason why ships bank like ships in water is because they are moving at such high velocity that it takes time and energy too turn.  In SFB, the Warp engines help augment movement through space by lowering the initial mass of the vessel so that the Impulse engines can move the ship at high velocities.  At such high volocities, ships in SFB can't turn on a dime so they have too "Bank" in order too turn.  Rockets and the Space Shuttles need thrust too turn them in space.  In Star Trek and SFB, since the ships are moving so fast (hunderes too thousands of Kilometers per second at Impulse speeds) that the ship would crush like and egg if you turned the ship sharply.  That is why in SFB (and in SFC3) they have what is called the "High Energy Turn" or HET.  It focuses a huge amount of  the energy from the engines into the Y axis of the ship while moving in order to turn it extremely sharply.    





Still defies physics.

If you have thrusters that turn the ship, even if it takes a lot of energy, they will turn around their center of gravity, like the Borg in SFC3.

In SFC3, if you have a fed ship sit still, and tell it to turn 90 degrees to the right...it will turn on it's side and bank like a fighter on a wing.  Even if it takes time and energy to turn, it will rotate on its axis, albiet slowly, like the Borg ships (never see them bank).

There is absolutely no reason for them to bank on a wing like an airplane,

Death_Merchant

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2004, 01:36:42 am »
Mags is confusing SFB "turn mode" with the graphical "banking" in SFC when a ship is turning.
We still love him anyway....

And spaceships banking like airplanes (thank you George Lucas and Star Wars) in space is silly, but we still like it.  

Cleaven

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2004, 01:47:02 am »
Quote:

Guys, the reason why ships bank in SFC is that the basic engine is based on the old SFB rules.  SFB explained that the reason why ships bank like ships in water is because they are moving at such high velocity that it takes time and energy too turn.  In SFB, the Warp engines help augment movement through space by lowering the initial mass of the vessel so that the Impulse engines can move the ship at high velocities.  At such high volocities, ships in SFB can't turn on a dime so they have too "Bank" in order too turn.  Rockets and the Space Shuttles need thrust too turn them in space.  In Star Trek and SFB, since the ships are moving so fast (hunderes too thousands of Kilometers per second at Impulse speeds) that the ship would crush like and egg if you turned the ship sharply.  That is why in SFB (and in SFC3) they have what is called the "High Energy Turn" or HET.  It focuses a huge amount of  the energy from the engines into the Y axis of the ship while moving in order to turn it extremely sharply.    




You'll have to enlightment me as to where in the SFB rules or Captains Logs this is.  

Cleaven

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2004, 01:50:48 am »
Quote:

Mags is confusing SFB "turn mode" with the graphical "banking" in SFC when a ship is turning.
We still love him anyway....

And spaceships banking like airplanes (thank you George Lucas and Star Wars) in space is silly, but we still like it.  




Uh yep.  

And hands up who wants to play a real physics sub-light space combat game?  

Windfox

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2004, 03:41:49 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Mags is confusing SFB "turn mode" with the graphical "banking" in SFC when a ship is turning.
We still love him anyway....

And spaceships banking like airplanes (thank you George Lucas and Star Wars) in space is silly, but we still like it.  




Uh yep.  

And hands up who wants to play a real physics sub-light space combat game?  




Harrington-verse(as in Honor Harrington).  Nuff said.  

The_Pelican

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2004, 05:43:24 am »
Why do the ships bank in Star Trek?

Simple - because it looks good.

They don't have to bank, but they do anyway.

Bonk

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2004, 05:48:14 am »
 
Quote:

 There is absolutely no reason for them to bank on a wing like an airplane,  




Crew inertia.  

David Ferrell

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2004, 09:11:26 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Mags is confusing SFB "turn mode" with the graphical "banking" in SFC when a ship is turning.
We still love him anyway....

And spaceships banking like airplanes (thank you George Lucas and Star Wars) in space is silly, but we still like it.  




Uh yep.  

And hands up who wants to play a real physics sub-light space combat game?  




I do, but they cancelled B5: Into the Fire.

Yep they bank because it looks good.  They bank in the shows, they bank in the game.

Thanks,

Dave

Scipio_66

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2004, 09:57:17 am »
Quote:


Uh yep.  

And hands up who wants to play a real physics sub-light space combat game?  




If you want to do it on the tabletop, Full Thrust does a fairly decent job.  Once you start moving in one direction, you keep moving in that direction (at the same speed) until you expend thrust to change your vector.  Movement for each turn is pre-plotted, and conducted simultaneously.  Watching two opposing fleets try to manuever to both stay in formation and point themselves at the enemy can be entertaining.

It's far from perfect, but it does get the point across.  It's also a fun game.

-S'Cipio  

Mog

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2004, 10:48:15 am »
Wasn't one of the Elite sequels like that? Combat sucked in it, I know that, compared to the first Elite, which was a pity because the rest of the changes were great (could change your ship, more jobs, factions etc).

Praxis

  • Guest
Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2004, 11:15:59 am »
Quote:



If you want to do it on the tabletop, Full Thrust does a fairly decent job.  Once you start moving in one direction, you keep moving in that direction (at the same speed) until you expend thrust to change your vector.  Movement for each turn is pre-plotted, and conducted simultaneously.  Watching two opposing fleets try to manuever to both stay in formation and point themselves at the enemy can be entertaining.

It's far from perfect, but it does get the point across.  It's also a fun game.

-S'Cipio  




Wow.  A game that actually obeys the laws of physics.

Anyone ever notice how when in Star Trek a ship turns off its engines, it stops?  By intertia, it should keep going straight after the engines are turned off unless they use braking thrusters.

Lieutenant_Q

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Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2004, 12:02:45 pm »
I think it can be explained (non-canonly of course) as an active warp field creates a subspace drag, which would also explain why impulse fuel is expended constantly while at impulse, instead of simply reaching the desired speed and shutting the engines off.  Of course, it can also be put down to the early writers had no clue what they were talking about when it comes to space travel and later writers had no choice but to continue the trend.

Inertia, was used correctly in The Battle, Picard tells Riker to turn off the Tractor beam on the Stargazer, and let her inertia carry her along, which would seem to support the active warp field theory.  

Praxis

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Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2004, 12:25:10 pm »
Quote:

I think it can be explained (non-canonly of course) as an active warp field creates a subspace drag, which would also explain why impulse fuel is expended constantly while at impulse, instead of simply reaching the desired speed and shutting the engines off.  Of course, it can also be put down to the early writers had no clue what they were talking about when it comes to space travel and later writers had no choice but to continue the trend.

Inertia, was used correctly in The Battle, Picard tells Riker to turn off the Tractor beam on the Stargazer, and let her inertia carry her along, which would seem to support the active warp field theory.    




Yeah but when you're at impulse you're not using a warp field.

Also, there's no such thing as a "Maximum speed".  If the engines are turned to maximum, you'll keep accelerating (think of the graph of the square root of x)- more powerful engines accelerate faster.  You'd keep accelerating and accelerating and accelerating, getting closer and closer to lightspeed.  Maybe after a couple years accelerating you'd eventually reach .99999 lightspeed...getting closer and closer to lightspeed, but never making it.

Anyway, when there's a pursuit in ST, the ship with a faster engine would accelerate faster, and therefore would be gaining at a much faster rate.

DH123

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Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2004, 12:26:24 pm »
This is from http://www.ditl.org .   The description actually makes sense in the SFC dynamic.


The basics of Impulse Engine design as employed by the United Federation of Planets, and most other major powers,  have remained more or less static for almost a century now. In general, Impulse engines consist of four main components :
The fuel tank contains the reactants used within the engine. Starfleet uses simple Deuterium fuel - less efficient than a Deuterium/Tritium mix, but Deuterium is far easier to produce and handle than Tritium, while using only one type of fuel eliminates the necessity for two independent sets of fuel storage and handling systems within the ship.

Once the fuel has left the tanks, it is reduced in temperature to form pellets of solid Deuterium ice of variable diameter. These are fired into the reactor where a set of fusion initiators are used to ignite the pellet whilst a magnetic field holds them in place. The Deuterium atoms are fused together in part according to the equation :



Which gives the conversion of mass to energy a theoretical maximum efficiency of 0.08533% -in practice other reactions and engine design produces different efficiencies. The standard Impulse fusion reactor as used in the Galaxy class Starship is a sphere six metres in diameter, constructed of dispersion-strengthened hafnium excelinide. The reactors can be networked together, with each one passing its plasma output to another in a cascade fashion. Each of the eight Impulse engines on a Galaxy class starship has three fusion reactors connected together in this manner.

Once the Deuterium has fused successfully, the plasma stream created is passed through the next major component - the space-time driver coil. Under the Einsteinian physics which holds true for objects at sub-warp velocities it is virtually impossible for a simple fusion rocket to deliver sufficient energy to accelerate a spacecraft to near light speed - the fuel requirements rapidly increase to the point where the large majority of the vessel would be dedicated to fuel tankage.The coil avoids this situation by generating a sub-warp cochrane field around the vessel, reducing its effective mass in order to boost the acceleration.

Actual Impulse flight performance is therefore dependant not only on the specifications of the fusion reactors, but also on the capabilities of the driver coils. One of the fastest ships ever fielded in terms of Impulse performance was the refit Constitution class. This ship was capable of reaching 'Full Impulse' (25% c) in a matter of seconds. At the other end of the scale the much later Ambassador class was designed to achieve a far more lowly acceleration of 10,000 ms-2, sufficient to reach Full Impulse in 125 minutes.

Once the plasma stream has passed through the driver coil assembly, it reaches the exhaust port and passes into space. If the coil itself is not engaged, the Impulse Engine reverts to behaving like a simple Newtonian fusion rocket with a performance thousands of times less than its normal capabilities. Under these circumstances the exhaust system is designed to vector the thrust of the engine in order to correct for unusual mass distributions or provide off-axis thrust for enhanced agility.

At velocities which are an appreciable fraction of that of light, time dilation becomes a factor for Starship crews. When a ship travels very near to the velocity of light, this effect can become very significant. For example, at the 92% c which is the maximum velocity of the Galaxy class Starship over 2.5 days would pass for a stationary observer for each day which passed for the crew. In order to keep these effects below a 3.5% time differential, the Federation has long imposed a ban on Impulse flight above velocities of 0.25 c - so called "Full Impulse" - on all normal missions. While this restriction is not applicable during combat operations, the effects of time dilation can have extremely adverse effects on a vessel in these conditions - a crew can find themselves in a position where their reaction time will be greatly reduced compared to an enemy because of the difference in velocities between them. High relativistic speeds are therefore generally avoided altogether by Starships.

Early space vessels had to mount so called "retro-rockets" in order to slow themselves down as they approached their destination, or else turn their craft backwards and use the main engines to slow down. One further advantage of utilizing the driver coil in an Impulse engine is that this rather cumbersome requirement is removed. The driver coil essentially allows the ship to reduce its mass in order to allow a - relatively - small amount of kinetic energy to create a great deal of velocity. Once the coil is discharged, the ship returns rapidly to its normal mass. The kinetic energy remains constant, so the velocity is vastly reduced without any need to use the engines thrust.

In theory, the coil alone could be used to drive the ship by simply adjusting the mass so that the velocity reaches the desired level. In practice, however, it is not that simple. The coil cannot be simply turned up and down as required, but is rather discharged and then recharged by the flow of plasma through it - essentially, by the normal operation of the impulse engine. It is thus not possible to 'tune' a ships mass up and down as required. Overcoming this limitation has been the holy grail of Impulse engine designers for well over a century, but as yet no progress has been made.
 
 

Praxis

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Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2004, 02:41:57 pm »
I really don't know how much of that to believe.

Only a couple sentences are in yellow, aka canon.

Half the article is in green, aka backstage source...not canon, just ideas from some of the writers that were never said on the shows.

A huge chunk of it is in white, the DITL guy's own speculation.

That's why I detest DITL.  He mixes canon in with non-canon and with speculation, trying to trick the reader and hoping they don't read the footnote (white = speculation).

For example, check out the Galaxy class.  Length, beam, and height are  backstage, decks are canon.   The fact that it has 2 photon torpedo tubes is backstage (and wrong, it has at least 3, two in front, one or two in rear).  The type of torpedoes (Type 3) is his speculation, as is the RIDICULOUS damage levels on the phasers of 50,000 terrawatts when Riker clearly stated that 1 terrawatt is more than the entire ship can produce, and Data said their ship produces 600 gigawatts.

Holocat

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Re: DeBorging the Borg
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2004, 05:50:48 am »
Quote:

Quote:


Uh yep.  

And hands up who wants to play a real physics sub-light space combat game?  




If you want to do it on the tabletop, Full Thrust does a fairly decent job.  Once you start moving in one direction, you keep moving in that direction (at the same speed) until you expend thrust to change your vector.  Movement for each turn is pre-plotted, and conducted simultaneously.  Watching two opposing fleets try to manuever to both stay in formation and point themselves at the enemy can be entertaining.

It's far from perfect, but it does get the point across.  It's also a fun game.

-S'Cipio  




Star Control! :3

Mike H

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Re:Banking
« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2004, 08:39:32 pm »
Quote:

Normal ships *don't* bank unless they're in atmosphere.  In space, there's no reason to bank.




If you're talking pure Newtonian physics, rolling (a.k.a. "banking") could possibly be advantageous if your ship could generate more force ( turn faster) with dorsal/ventral thrusters than you could with the tail and lateral thrust.  Probably doubtful, but not impossible.

Force x Arm = Moment

Factors:  How far from the center of gravity (arm) are the tail (and lateral) thrusters?  How powerful are the tail thrusters compared to thrusters on the other axes of the ship, etc...etc...

And there is of course the possibility of damaged thrusters in battle, in which case the ship may end up turning better using other methods than yawing only around the vertical (yaw) axis!

 


     

Praxis

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Re:Banking
« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2004, 01:53:21 pm »
Yeah but the designers would have to be utterly stupid to put more powerful thrusters there than on the engines in the back of the ship.

In that case the ship could go faster moving sideways :P

But wait, the designers would have to be stupid to put Jeffries tubes through the whole ship and put all the access panels for systems in the Jeffries tubes, so we know they are stupid already :P