Topic: What will you need to run your NEXT Microsoft operating system?

[Clark Kent]

Quote:
 They are good computers but aren't really good games machines. Personally I would buy one if they didn't cost so much.  

Hopefully I'm not tooting Apple's horn too much, but Macs make fine game machines, they just lack games.  Also, they aren't all that expensive these days anymore, at least, if you go eMac, iMac or iBook.  The Powerbooks are more expensive, as are the Powermacs, but I feel well worth the money if that's what you need,

CK

P.S.  I like Latinas...
....And apparently Asian ladies as well...

[Praxis]

Quote:
They are good computers but aren't really good games machines. Personally I would buy one if they didn't cost so much.  

 OpenGL integration into the operating system...even the desktop is 3d.  Before you call this a waste of resources, consider this.  When you are NOT playing a 3d game, your graphics card is doing NOTHING and your processor is doing the window dressing.  In Mac OS X, the graphics card does the work of the windows, freeing up the processor to do more work.  This integration also gives it great game performance.  And makes it very, very easy to convert games from Linux to Mac OS X, since both use OpenGL and both use UNIX.

As a result, Mac's are GREAT gaming machines.  The downside is that there isn't as many games.

Plus theres UNIX- it doesn't crash like Windows/DOS.


Actually, there are a WHOLE STINKING LOT of Mac games.

Seriously, people, you should look into the wealth of Mac games.  Here's just ONE COMPANY:

http://www.aspyr.com/games.php/mac/complete/

There are a LOT, from Jedi Academy to BF1942 to Elite Force...

Now all we need is SFC3 and I can throw my Windows box out.

Quote:
 Hopefully I'm not tooting Apple's horn too much, but Macs make fine game machines, they just lack games.

Completely correct, except now that there are several companies that make lots of money by converting other companies' games to the Mac platform, so you can find *most* major PC games except Starfleet Command and a couple others for Mac- they just come out a few months late.

Quote:
  Also, they aren't all that expensive these days anymore, at least, if you go eMac, iMac or iBook.  The Powerbooks are more expensive, as are the Powermacs, but I feel well worth the money if that's what you need,

Actually...

The low end PowerMacs are ridiculously priced for the low amount of power ($1500 for a single processor 1.6 ghz machine?  Even if it does more calculations per hz, its nothing compared to an Athlon 64!), but the high end PowerMacs ($3000 will get you a dual 2 GHz PowerMac G5, with a Radeon 9800 and lots of RAM, PCI-X, and a 200 gigabyte hard drive and DVD-RW) is cheaper than an Alienware with about equal performance (according to benchmarks- it wins in gaming because the Alienware has a 256 MB Radeon 9800, while the best the Mac can get is a 128 MB Radeon 9800 Pro, but the Mac wins by a mile in video editting
 performance).

iBook is cheaper than most PC laptops!  Consider:  $1099, or $999 with student discount, will get you a computer with a fast processor, 6 hour max battery (generally 4 hours, 5 if you don't have wireles card and are not using the bluetooth or 3d graphics card much and aren't doing anything intensive), a Radeon 9200 (try finding a graphics card like that on a PC laptop for under $1400!), a 30 gig hard drive, a DVD/CD-RW, and built in microphone...

I had a G3 iBook just before they came out with the G4.

The 12" PowerBook has average pricing (about on par with PC's) and the 15" and 17" PowerBooks are a bit too expensive.  eMacs are very cheap, iMacs are expensive (BUT have a built in flatscreen and is one of the most compact yet powerful systems I've ever seen...the computer fits in the STAND for the LCD!).



Trust me when I say Mac rules- I have a 12" PowerBook G4






-------



Apparently I'm not the only one who reads slashdot.  Isn't it ridiculous, those system specs?

I intend to not by any more PC's for a looong time- with the number of Mac games rapidly rising, and the bloat of Windows rising even faster, I'm gonna go all Mac.

[Praxis]

BTW is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that most of Longhorn's features are ripped straight off Mac OS X?

Most of you haven't use Mac OS X (I still see people who think that Macs look like OS 8 and 9, you know, the old ugly grey boxy interface...), so you probably don't know just how much is ripped off.

Internet Explorer 7:
It has popup blocking, just like Safari.  I'll let them slip with this one because every other browser has popup blocking too...but theres more.

IE7 has the same BUTTONS as Apple's Safari...and the same colors...and the same "brushed metal" look.

The Clock:
The shiny 3d-ish old-fashioned clock that can appear in the dock on the side is ripped right off the one in Mac OS X.

The dock:
Longhorn now features a dock on the side or bottom of the screen, in addition to the Task bar.  AGAIN, ripped right off OS X.

Apple came out with the taskbar concept way back with their first OSes- then Microsoft copied it in the form of the Task Bar in Windows.

Then about 3-4 years ago, Mac OS X introduced the Dock, in addition to their task bar (not sure what its called in Mac terms).

Now in Longhorn, Microsoft is copying THAT, as well.

Okay, I'm through complaining.

Oh wait, I have more to complain about, my new computer is below the "recommended specs" to run longhorn!  ARGH!  I only have a 120 gig hard drive, and 2.6 ghz P4!

[Clark Kent]

Doesn't surprise me, although it really pisses me off that they're ripping off of the Mac OS yet AGAIN.  I still run OS 9 on my laptop, and Panther on my iMac.  I can't complain enough about what a rip windows has always been.  What gets me, though, is that OS X 10.3 runs perfectly well on a 400 mHz iMac and even slower, and Longhorn requires 4 gigahertz and a hole bunch of other crap just to get by?  blah.
I'd hope they get successfully sued this time.  I can't believe that PC's are crippled by that piece of crap operating system...

CK

P.S.  I like Latinas...
....And apparently Asian Ladies as well...

[Javora]

Quote:

Quote:
Microsoft is expected to recommend that the "average" Longhorn PC feature a dual-core CPU running at 4 to 6GHz; a minimum of 2 gigs of RAM; up to a terabyte of storage; a 1 Gbit, built-in, Ethernet-wired port and an 802.11g wireless link; and a graphics processor that runs three times faster than those on the market today.

Pretty hefty.  But will it run SFC?  

I guess with those type or needs we won't be seeing Longhorn on a laptop anytime soon??!?    
 

[IKV Nemesis D7L]

Quote:
I guess with those type or needs we won't be seeing Longhorn on a laptop anytime soon??!?    
   

AMD has announced that they will be releasing a dual core Opteron next year, so maybe.   They designed the Athlon 64/Opteron with the ability to be made multi-core, Intel has announced that they are retro-fitting that ability onto the Pentium 4 (along with AMD64 compatibility).    

[TalonClaw]

 

Quote:
they just lack games  

And those words sum up the whole problem with apples.  It also doesn't help that apples are over priced.

[Praxis]

Quote:
 

Quote:
they just lack games  

And those words sum up the whole problem with apples.  It also doesn't help that apples are over priced.  

Did you read a word I said...
Okay, let's do a quick comparison...

Intel® Pentium® M Processor 1.2GHz Low Voltage, 12.1 inch XGA
Microsoft® Windows® XP Home Edition
384MB Shared DDR SDRAM
30GB Hard Drive

Featured at
$1,818

Now lets compare with the iBook G4.

 $1,099.00       
   1GHz PowerPC G4
512K L2 cache @ 1GHz
12-inch TFT Display
1024x768 resolution
256MB DDR266 SDRAM
30GB Ultra ATA drive
Combo Drive
ATI Mobility Radeon 9200
32MB DDR video memory
AirPort Extreme ready

Both have processors that should last around 4 or 5 hours.


Processors:
1 GHz G4 vs 1.2 GHz Pentium-M

This is the low voltage pentium M.  Both computers should last around 4-6 hours.  The G4 will probably win performance wise by a little bit, since it is a RISC processor and uses a more efficient Reduced Instruction Set Computing processor command set, and does more calculations per GHz.

Before anyone starts babbling that GHz = Speed (which it doesn't- AMD themselves say so on their web site- Intel just wants you to think it does), you should know that the Athlon 64 FX-51 is only 2.2 GHz, yet outperforms the 3.2 GHz Pentium 4...

Speed is clockrate (Hz) x calculations per clock cycle to put it simply...then you have to add in the bus speed (Macs win) and cache size (The G5 has lots of cache, though the Centrino has more than the average mobile processor as well).

So the G4 will probably get a bit better performance, the Pentium-M a bit better battery life.


Screens:

Same size.


RAM:

The Dell has an extra 128 MB RAM, which costs about $30 to buy from crucial.  Big deal, considering that laptop costs $700 more.

Not only that, but its SHARED memory, so if you try to run anything even remotely 3dish, it STEALS some of your RAM (reducing overall system performance) and sends it to the craptastic "integrated" graphics chip, to render something.


Hard drive:

Same size.



Computer size:

The iBook is slightly more than 1" thin, the Dell is slightly less (note that Apple's PowerBooks are faster, more powerful, and have DVD-RW's, and are also under 1").  However, the terribly designed Dell had to skip a few things to get to be that size, including the CD drive- it's External, meaning you have to lug it around or leave it at home.


CD Drive:

Both include a DVD/CD-RW drive, both come with burning software.

HOWEVER, the Dell's is externel.


Graphics card:

Here is where the Dell dies a horrible death.

The Dell doesn't have a graphics card, or has one of those horrible "integrated shared memory" chips that steals your PC's RAM (at a slow speed since it reroutes it from the system RAM to graphics RAM), slows your system down, and has terrible performance, and isn't designed to run anything better than SFC2 graphics-wise.

The Mac has a Radeon 9200 32 MB graphics card.  It's fast, its powerful, its a good, well priced gaming rig.  It is incredibly hard to find a PC with a Radeon 9200 for under $1500, let me tell you!


Wireless:
Neither have built in wireless- if you want wireless on the Dell, you have to stick in a card in the slot, which leaves you with a bulky computer with an antennae sticking out the side.

The Mac has a built in antennae on the side of the monitor (inside the casing, you can't see it).  You just slap in an INTERNAL WIRELESS CARD (you'll never know it was there) and bam, you're online, with better reception than the dell, as well, since it has a huge antennae.



Software:

The Mac really does well here, too.

Dell has: Windows XP Home Edition (ick), the included Windows Movie Maker (ickier...you can only save in Windows Media Video format, which ONLY people with Windows XP, ME, and 2000 can view, and only in Windows Media player.  Sorry Windows 98 users (not SE though), sorry Linux users, sorry people not using Windows Media player, and sorry Mac users.  And you can't burn to a DVD or CD either, since nothing reads it but Windows).

You also get a trial of Norton Antivirus that quits working after 90 days.

You get WordPerfect.

You get Sonic RecordNow!, an EXTREMELY simplified and not really that useful except for copying CD's  CD burning program.

You get Dell Jukebox, a really bad music player that has access to Dell's not that great music store that doesn't have as much as the competition (Napster and Apple).

And you get Dell Picture Studio, a photo editting studio.

Now lets see what the Mac has.

Mac OS X Panther 10.3 (whoops the pants off Windows XP), iMovie 4 (almost professional grade movie editting program, yet simple to use, can save stuff to both a quicktime file that will play on the web, or a DVD, or several other formats), iPhoto (one of the best Photo-organization/editting programs around), iTunes 4.5 (one of the best music playing programs around...it plays AAC, MP3, AIFF, and lots of other formats...the Windows version can convert .WMA as well)...

You get AppleWorks (word processor equivilant to WordPerfect that can open .docs... and a spreadsheet app like Excel, and a presentation program like PowerPoint...and they can save in PDF!) instead of WordPerfect...much better.

You get iDVD, so you can create a DVD and take it to the computer of someone who has a DVD-RW and burn, baby, burn!

You can burn CD's easily with built in tools, AND IN ADDITION you can use any of the iLife programs (iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD, and iTunes) to burn music CD's, video CD's, or Photo CD's...

You get a trial of Microsoft Office X, and Quicken World Book 2004, instead of Norton Antivirus.  And did I mention that there AREN'T viruses for Mac OS X?  

And you get Tony Hawk Pro Skater 4 and Deimos Rising, two cool games, for free.






Price:

Dell = $1800, temporarily on discount to $1500 but it won't last long

Apple iBook = $1099, or $999 if you're a student.


Apple has the better graphics card, software bundle, better performance processor, built in DVD/CD-RW drive, and a much better operating system.

Which is more expensive, I ask you?

And did you look over all the games at    Aspyr  for Mac?  With all the games converters these days, being a Mac user doesn't mean you don't get the latest games, you just get them a couple months late.

[Death_Merchant]

Quote:
BTW is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that most of Longhorn's features are ripped straight off Mac OS X?
 

No, it's not just you Praxis.
It's also PCMag. Their one-page blurb regarding the WinHEC 2004 unveiling of Longhorn is here.

You know what they say about imitation......  

[Clark Kent]

Quote:
 And those words sum up the whole problem with apples.  It also doesn't help that apples are over priced.  

I won't argue what {rxis already has, but will add: some of us do more than just play games on our machines...

CK

P.S. I like Latinas...
....And apparently Asian Ladies as well...  

[Clark Kent]

Quote:

You know what they say about imitation......  

It's copyright infringment?

CK

P.S. I like Latinas...
....And apparently Asian Ladies as well...  

[Praxis]

LOL, good one.

[ActiveX]

Using Intel as a basis fo price comparison to an Apple isn't quite being honest about it...

Can you build an Apple or do you have to buy it?

[Clark Kent]

Quote:
LOL, good one.  

 

I've heard of people building macs, and have run accross generic parts every now and again, I just don't think it happens all that much,

CK

P.S. I like Latinas...
....And apparently Asian Ladies as well...  

[IKV Nemesis D7L]

Quote:
Using Intel as a basis fo price comparison to an Apple isn't quite being honest about it...

Can you build an Apple or do you have to buy it?  

In this case it was fair as he was talking about laptops.  Do you know anyone who has built a personal laptop?  I don't and 3 of the 4 computers surrounding me were built by me and the 4th has been modified substantially.  

[Rondo_GE]

and here's Linux!  

[Praxis]

Oh, Linux is definitely awesome, but if you're not a UNIX nerd it has a steep learning curve.

I *still* haven't gotten WINE working.  I finally got all the stuff for WineX...and guess what, I need to compile it, no problem...(btw getting the stuff from CVS was a nightmare)

Oh, wait, I download GCC and it's in source code.  How do I compile GCC without GCC?

lol, let me say this.

I've tried all 3 operating systems, and heres my opinion on it:

Windows simplifies a lot of the difficult things, like networking and programming, and makes the simple stuff (like playing games) WAY more difficult than they should be.

Linux simplifies the simple things (web browsing, few viruses to worry about, Office work, very simple), but overcomplicates the difficult things (networking and programming, for example).  It even is hard to install stuff.  To be fair, if you CAN figure out how to do these things in Linux, it is WAY more flexible than Windows.

Mac OS X makes everything simple- both the difficult things and simple things.  It's a great OS, and if you're a UNIX geek and feel the need to get dirty in the OS, you can still pull up terminal and start compiling stuff like nuts  It's got both sides of the coins- userfriendliness AND ability.

[ActiveX]

Quote:

Quote:
Using Intel as a basis fo price comparison to an Apple isn't quite being honest about it...

Can you build an Apple or do you have to buy it?  

In this case it was fair as he was talking about laptops.  Do you know anyone who has built a personal laptop?  I don't and 3 of the 4 computers surrounding me were built by me and the 4th has been modified substantially.  

Well ppl dont seriously game on their laptops...usually...

And I havent looked too hard to see if I could, Im talking about desktops...

[Praxis]

Generally, its best to just buy it from Apple.

If you really want to, its possible to buy the parts from IBM to build a Mac...but you won't have the warranty, it won't look as cool, it won't necessarily have the same OS hardware support (which is one reason why XP is so buggy...Mac OS X has a set of hardware profiles for each mac you could run it on...giving it extreme stability for those systems.  If you use it with a nonsupported system, it has to tailor a hardware profile, so it won't always be as good hardware-wise).

[TalonClaw]

Quote:

Quote:
 And those words sum up the whole problem with apples.  It also doesn't help that apples are over priced.  

I won't argue what {rxis already has, but will add: some of us do more than just play games on our machines...

CK

P.S. I like Latinas...
....And apparently Asian Ladies as well...  

Praxis, I'll take your word for it that they are cheaper now but in the past they were always over priced compared to a PC.  There is just not enough of a market out there to produce games on them or the industry would.  Sure I use my PC for more than games and it works great.  But I like to play games too.