Topic: One for you science people

[KRolling]

I could see that as being justified only after we have made sure that every mouth on the planet was fed every day.

[SL-Punisher]

Ok.

Sell your computer. Your TV, Your DVD player, any home stereo equipment. Give up any luxury and use the proceeds to make sure world hunger is eliminated..

It's easy to [bleep] when you don't have to give up anything.

[IKV Nemesis D7L]

Quote:
I could see that as being justified only after we have made sure that every mouth on the planet was fed every day.  

How would you do this by cancelling the space program?  

The space program both directly and indirectly improves the standard of living in many countries.  

Some examples:

1/ weather satellites

2/ medical advances from systems designed to monitor the Apollo and other astronauts save lives daily.

3/ sattelite communications

4/ cell phones (require the satellitles) allow nations to have advanced communications when wiring the nation like North America is impractical.

5/ Mineral surveys that find resources that cannot be found by land based surveying.

Future things that will help those nations if allowed to:

1/ Solar power - pollution free and only the ground based reciever would be vulnerable to terrorists.  Technology available for at least 2 decades just needs to be used.  No worry about nuclear material being redirected to weapons either.  Does not require long range transmission wiring which is not always practical.

2/ Weather modification to end droughts and floods.

3/ Space based mirrors that can light up disaster areas through the night for rescue work.  (has been demonstrated)

The world produces enough food to feed all.  It is just not evenly distributed.  Farmers are paid to not grow food in North America.  Genetically engineered crops that could aid 3rd world countries are blocked by 1st world nations.  How do we change this?

If you want to feed people first you must end the corruption in 3rd world countries.   When aid that is sent to those countries is allowed to rot in warehouses because corrupt officials won't allow it to move without being paid bribes people starve.  When "rebells" seize food meant for the starving, people die.   When Warlords control the country side there is little that can be done to improve the lives of the common people.

These nations need to create a government and society that allows them to both help themselves and to be helped.  As long as the current situations continue little can be done to stop world hunger.  The most that can be done is try to concentrate aid where we can improve things and try to set the groundwork of change in place.   It is not possible for us to impose responsible governments and societies on them, they must do it themselves.  The most we can do is attempt to help them and guide them, which can only work if they allow it to.  

We must continue into the future and hope that they follow our lead.  We can lend them a hand but only if they are willing to grasp it.  At present they slap it away.  

[KRolling]

In the United States alone, there are people here who are in great need.

But that is what our great Nation is built on.... the backs of the less fortunate.

Hey, I have an idea!!!! Let's build a billion dollar ship and go see what we can see!!!

I'm sorry.... after being involved and watching what my sister and her husband have to go through with their foster children, trying to keep them safe and healthy, I have no patience with the whims of the rich.

I am so disgusted at how our system works to so-call protect these children.

It's ashame when you have a two year old that is malnurished and has more mental problems than an adult in a mental hospital.  Not enough is being done.

Oh, and doesn't the US have a deficit?  Couldn't we at least, even if we don't care about our children and elderly, pay off our debt first?

[IKV Nemesis D7L]

In my comments below remember I am not American and have not observed the U.S. problems directly.

Quote:
In the United States alone, there are people here who are in great need.

But that is what our great Nation is built on.... the backs of the less fortunate.

Here in Canada I have seen much of the same.  But those "in need" fall into several categories.  

1/ They chose to be.  Yes some do.  They choose to live on welfare with no attempt to leave it while cheating and scamming the system.  The system needs to be fixed to force these ones out and punish them.  

When I was a chid my mother used to routinely give money to a "homeless man" while grocery shopping.  When he died it was in the news, he left a multi-million dollar estate.  

An elderly man who lived in an abandoned car near where I used to work had an adequate pension and his daughter wanted him to live with her (for free), but she wouldn't let him drink.  He chose the abandoned car so he could stay drunk all the time.  

I know a woman who was kicked off welfare 3 times.  The first two times she avoided punishment by getting pregnant.  Going to jail or paying back what she had fraudulently obtained would have been bad for the children, I think it was bad for the children to see the mother getting away with being a criminal.  The 3rd time she was offered a deal.  Jail time and bankruptcy or turn in all those she knew to be scamming, she turned in all of her sisters.  Her whole family is on the 3rd generation of scamming the system.

People who go to food banks and similar services not from need but because they are entitled to.  They drain resources from those truely in need.  

Much of this could be stopped by fingerprinting,positive ID of those recieving aid and sharing information between aid departments. But civil rights people think that removes rights from those receiving aid.  By fighting the positive IDing they allow scammers to inflate the system and remove aid from the truely needy.

2/ Caused by their own direct stupidity.  You can't help some people, they will merely cause themselves new problems if you handle the old ones for them.  It is wasteful even to try.

3/ Legitimate need.  Our national economic policy (and yours) is based in part on maintaining a set level of unemployment.  Some people will be unemployed and need help.  They should be helped because their need is caused by the greater good being served, but they should still be living in poverty. (Poverty definitions are such that a proportion of the population will be living in poverty no matter how much they have).  People on welfare should not be living better than those on minimum wage.  They should have adequate food, clothing and housing but little more.  They should be striving to not be in that bottom percentage of non workers.

Quote:
Hey, I have an idea!!!! Let's build a billion dollar ship and go see what we can see!!!

As stated earlier there is more economic gain (which helps the poor and everyone else indirectly) then the cost of the program.  That said I would prefer to see the system streamlined to get more for the money.  

Perhaps you should find other programs that don't generate new technologies and contribute to the economy to trim.  

Fix the tax system so people and companies can't evade them.  

Fix the "sue for wealth" legal system.  This should lower insurance and medical costs while leaving more money for productive parts of society.  

Fight those who force their religious and moral views into school textbooks and curriculams instead of actual science and history.  For example creationism is NOT a scientific theory, evolution is (theory not law).1

Fight those who put forth the idea that a child deserves to be in the same classes as others his/her age regardless of how much they learned.  All this does is hold back those who would otherwise excel and teach the children that effort is meaningless.

Fight against non educational things in schools. What educational gain does that swimming pool give?  How about the money spent on sports teams?  Let the parents or students fund the team if they wish.  It's not education it should not be in the education budget.

Quote:
I'm sorry.... after being involved and watching what my sister and her husband have to go through with their foster children, trying to keep them safe and healthy, I have no patience with the whims of the rich.

I am so disgusted at how our system works to so-call protect these children.

How much of this is the fault of the parents?  I have known people who have had their children taken away and put in foster homes.  Most of them continue to have more children.  Children that they are allowed to keep until they abuse or neglect that child.  Do something about this (and educate/punish) the offending parents and you may reduce the problem.  Make a point about educating the children who were themselves abused and you may reduce the problem for the next generation.

Quote:
It's ashame when you have a two year old that is malnurished and has more mental problems than an adult in a mental hospital.  Not enough is being done.

Who caused the problems and how would you solve them?  You can't watch over every child every second.  No matter what you do some will suffer.  Mostly because of the parents.  The parents have the responsibility for the child they create.  When they don't live up to that responsiblity they should be blamed (and the child helped) not the state.  

Quote:
Oh, and doesn't the US have a deficit?  Couldn't we at least, even if we don't care about our children and elderly, pay off our debt first?  

Yes it does. What is the biggest part of the national budget?  Social services I believe.  Fix the system, remove the scammers and punish them.  There would almost certainly be enough for all (but some will still fall through the cracks).

Look at big agencies and what they do.  

Why is so much spent on the "war on drugs"?  Why is it that the majority seems to want marijuana legallized but the minority manage to block it and send people to jail for  a "joint"?  (I don't drink, smoke or do drugs and never have).  Could these billions not be spent on reducing the deficit and taxes on legal drugs generate income to help balance the budget?   Some drugs are clearly bad and should be kept illegal.  Others like marijuana are no worse than legal ones like tobacco and alcohol.  

Why did the military "black budget" not decrease with the fall of Russia?  How many billions could have been saved?  

How about a constitutional ammendment to make it an impeachment offense to run a deficit (at all government levels) outside of a declared war or national emergency?  How long since the U.S. was in a declared war, Vietnam or Korea?  WWII?   (Police actions don't count).

How about eliminating tax exemptions for churches?  Why does that priest/minister/ rabbi etc really nead to drive a Mercedes?  How does it help society that they can spend $20 million on a new religious retreat/temple/.cathedral?  Let them pay taxes on that money which is not spent on charitable actions.  Make them declare their expenditures publicly to their membership, perhaps when it if found that a given "church" is wasting huge amounts the members will reform it.  This would nail the false religions bigtime and perhaps remove corruption in the legitimate ones.  

Make charities present details of expenditures that can be looked up when planning donations.  If a charity spends 98% of its money on things other than what they are supposed to be doing perhaps people would donate more to those that are run efficiently and actually help those they are supposed to be helping.  

[E_Look]

I'd hardly blame in general malnutrition, children's mental illnesses, poverty, and hunger in this country on the government.  Granted, the government bungles their own efforts to remedy such evils and granted, the rich and powerful have dominance in any society over those of us who are neither, I don't think it is wise to attack governmental endeavors that are positive, even if it does not directly or immediately ameliorate current evils.

I have personally been involved with people from the welfare underclass and their lives are not pretty.  However, government stupidity is only one factor and is not even a necessary cause.  They, these poor people, have some incredibly, uh, strange notions of how their lives should be lived and make some stunningly poor decisions.  And even when there are programs or opportunities that really will work if tried, they essentially refuse to take part.

Your sister's family apparently is different from this and seems also to be a haven, a bright, warm spot and I truly ask all God's blessings on them and their children.  But why are those children in their care?  I assume that their own parents have blown it somewhere down the line badly enough that authorities have determined that it is better their kids don't stay with them.  I have seen some of these "parents".  They have no clue how to be a human being; far be it from them to be able to show their kids how, then!  Your sister and brother in law's kindness is wonderful, but separate thing from another kind of spiritual, universal human benefit that is the space program.  I liken this more to (local) governments' providing essentially free public education- it may be rotten in some places, but works well in others and is basically a sound idea and generally of benefit to the people.

What was that about babies and bathwater?

[Khalee]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/04/30/space.rockets.reut/index.html

[Sirgod]

 

It looks pretty cool for a conceptional Rocket. I wonder what the Payload will be?

Stephen  

[Kmelew]

Quote:
 

It looks pretty cool for a conceptional Rocket. I wonder what the Payload will be?

Stephen  

It looks alot like the Russian Energiya booster that was designed for their space shuttle (Buran).  

[SL-Punisher]

Looks like a giant...

[KRolling]

Why?

Why are we doing this?

[IKV Nemesis D7L]

Quote:
Why?

Why are we doing this?  

Eventually space capabilities will be essential.  To develop it then will be too late.

Reasons it will be essential:

1/ Deflect incoming asteroid/comet that would otherwise impact the Earth.  Even with a 10 year warning developing the capablity to deflect an asteroid of substantial would be too late

2/ Acquire resources that we have already used up on the Earth.  In 1 above, deflect asteroid to Earth orbit and mine it.


Other reasons to do it:

1/ Same reason for all exploration, because we want to know.

2/ 'cause we can.  

3/ Manufacturing in zero or microgravity makes possible some things that either can't be done or which are too expensive in Earth gravity.  

4/ Build solar power satellites.  (practical since 1980 at least, but always blocked).  Limited pollution, beyond all but the most hi-tech terrorist assaults.

5/ Acquisition of resources that rare or non existant on the Earth (either naturally or due to depletion)

6/ Zero G sex.  

   

[SL-Punisher]

You said it all buddy.

Because we can. Hell that's the reason for mose of the crap we do.

[KRolling]

I could see that as being justified only after we have made sure that every mouth on the planet was fed every day.

[SL-Punisher]

Ok.

Sell your computer. Your TV, Your DVD player, any home stereo equipment. Give up any luxury and use the proceeds to make sure world hunger is eliminated..

It's easy to [bleep] when you don't have to give up anything.

[IKV Nemesis D7L]

Quote:
I could see that as being justified only after we have made sure that every mouth on the planet was fed every day.  

How would you do this by cancelling the space program?  

The space program both directly and indirectly improves the standard of living in many countries.  

Some examples:

1/ weather satellites

2/ medical advances from systems designed to monitor the Apollo and other astronauts save lives daily.

3/ sattelite communications

4/ cell phones (require the satellitles) allow nations to have advanced communications when wiring the nation like North America is impractical.

5/ Mineral surveys that find resources that cannot be found by land based surveying.

Future things that will help those nations if allowed to:

1/ Solar power - pollution free and only the ground based reciever would be vulnerable to terrorists.  Technology available for at least 2 decades just needs to be used.  No worry about nuclear material being redirected to weapons either.  Does not require long range transmission wiring which is not always practical.

2/ Weather modification to end droughts and floods.

3/ Space based mirrors that can light up disaster areas through the night for rescue work.  (has been demonstrated)

The world produces enough food to feed all.  It is just not evenly distributed.  Farmers are paid to not grow food in North America.  Genetically engineered crops that could aid 3rd world countries are blocked by 1st world nations.  How do we change this?

If you want to feed people first you must end the corruption in 3rd world countries.   When aid that is sent to those countries is allowed to rot in warehouses because corrupt officials won't allow it to move without being paid bribes people starve.  When "rebells" seize food meant for the starving, people die.   When Warlords control the country side there is little that can be done to improve the lives of the common people.

These nations need to create a government and society that allows them to both help themselves and to be helped.  As long as the current situations continue little can be done to stop world hunger.  The most that can be done is try to concentrate aid where we can improve things and try to set the groundwork of change in place.   It is not possible for us to impose responsible governments and societies on them, they must do it themselves.  The most we can do is attempt to help them and guide them, which can only work if they allow it to.  

We must continue into the future and hope that they follow our lead.  We can lend them a hand but only if they are willing to grasp it.  At present they slap it away.  

[KRolling]

In the United States alone, there are people here who are in great need.

But that is what our great Nation is built on.... the backs of the less fortunate.

Hey, I have an idea!!!! Let's build a billion dollar ship and go see what we can see!!!

I'm sorry.... after being involved and watching what my sister and her husband have to go through with their foster children, trying to keep them safe and healthy, I have no patience with the whims of the rich.

I am so disgusted at how our system works to so-call protect these children.

It's ashame when you have a two year old that is malnurished and has more mental problems than an adult in a mental hospital.  Not enough is being done.

Oh, and doesn't the US have a deficit?  Couldn't we at least, even if we don't care about our children and elderly, pay off our debt first?

[IKV Nemesis D7L]

In my comments below remember I am not American and have not observed the U.S. problems directly.

Quote:
In the United States alone, there are people here who are in great need.

But that is what our great Nation is built on.... the backs of the less fortunate.

Here in Canada I have seen much of the same.  But those "in need" fall into several categories.  

1/ They chose to be.  Yes some do.  They choose to live on welfare with no attempt to leave it while cheating and scamming the system.  The system needs to be fixed to force these ones out and punish them.  

When I was a chid my mother used to routinely give money to a "homeless man" while grocery shopping.  When he died it was in the news, he left a multi-million dollar estate.  

An elderly man who lived in an abandoned car near where I used to work had an adequate pension and his daughter wanted him to live with her (for free), but she wouldn't let him drink.  He chose the abandoned car so he could stay drunk all the time.  

I know a woman who was kicked off welfare 3 times.  The first two times she avoided punishment by getting pregnant.  Going to jail or paying back what she had fraudulently obtained would have been bad for the children, I think it was bad for the children to see the mother getting away with being a criminal.  The 3rd time she was offered a deal.  Jail time and bankruptcy or turn in all those she knew to be scamming, she turned in all of her sisters.  Her whole family is on the 3rd generation of scamming the system.

People who go to food banks and similar services not from need but because they are entitled to.  They drain resources from those truely in need.  

Much of this could be stopped by fingerprinting,positive ID of those recieving aid and sharing information between aid departments. But civil rights people think that removes rights from those receiving aid.  By fighting the positive IDing they allow scammers to inflate the system and remove aid from the truely needy.

2/ Caused by their own direct stupidity.  You can't help some people, they will merely cause themselves new problems if you handle the old ones for them.  It is wasteful even to try.

3/ Legitimate need.  Our national economic policy (and yours) is based in part on maintaining a set level of unemployment.  Some people will be unemployed and need help.  They should be helped because their need is caused by the greater good being served, but they should still be living in poverty. (Poverty definitions are such that a proportion of the population will be living in poverty no matter how much they have).  People on welfare should not be living better than those on minimum wage.  They should have adequate food, clothing and housing but little more.  They should be striving to not be in that bottom percentage of non workers.

Quote:
Hey, I have an idea!!!! Let's build a billion dollar ship and go see what we can see!!!

As stated earlier there is more economic gain (which helps the poor and everyone else indirectly) then the cost of the program.  That said I would prefer to see the system streamlined to get more for the money.  

Perhaps you should find other programs that don't generate new technologies and contribute to the economy to trim.  

Fix the tax system so people and companies can't evade them.  

Fix the "sue for wealth" legal system.  This should lower insurance and medical costs while leaving more money for productive parts of society.  

Fight those who force their religious and moral views into school textbooks and curriculams instead of actual science and history.  For example creationism is NOT a scientific theory, evolution is (theory not law).1

Fight those who put forth the idea that a child deserves to be in the same classes as others his/her age regardless of how much they learned.  All this does is hold back those who would otherwise excel and teach the children that effort is meaningless.

Fight against non educational things in schools. What educational gain does that swimming pool give?  How about the money spent on sports teams?  Let the parents or students fund the team if they wish.  It's not education it should not be in the education budget.

Quote:
I'm sorry.... after being involved and watching what my sister and her husband have to go through with their foster children, trying to keep them safe and healthy, I have no patience with the whims of the rich.

I am so disgusted at how our system works to so-call protect these children.

How much of this is the fault of the parents?  I have known people who have had their children taken away and put in foster homes.  Most of them continue to have more children.  Children that they are allowed to keep until they abuse or neglect that child.  Do something about this (and educate/punish) the offending parents and you may reduce the problem.  Make a point about educating the children who were themselves abused and you may reduce the problem for the next generation.

Quote:
It's ashame when you have a two year old that is malnurished and has more mental problems than an adult in a mental hospital.  Not enough is being done.

Who caused the problems and how would you solve them?  You can't watch over every child every second.  No matter what you do some will suffer.  Mostly because of the parents.  The parents have the responsibility for the child they create.  When they don't live up to that responsiblity they should be blamed (and the child helped) not the state.  

Quote:
Oh, and doesn't the US have a deficit?  Couldn't we at least, even if we don't care about our children and elderly, pay off our debt first?  

Yes it does. What is the biggest part of the national budget?  Social services I believe.  Fix the system, remove the scammers and punish them.  There would almost certainly be enough for all (but some will still fall through the cracks).

Look at big agencies and what they do.  

Why is so much spent on the "war on drugs"?  Why is it that the majority seems to want marijuana legallized but the minority manage to block it and send people to jail for  a "joint"?  (I don't drink, smoke or do drugs and never have).  Could these billions not be spent on reducing the deficit and taxes on legal drugs generate income to help balance the budget?   Some drugs are clearly bad and should be kept illegal.  Others like marijuana are no worse than legal ones like tobacco and alcohol.  

Why did the military "black budget" not decrease with the fall of Russia?  How many billions could have been saved?  

How about a constitutional ammendment to make it an impeachment offense to run a deficit (at all government levels) outside of a declared war or national emergency?  How long since the U.S. was in a declared war, Vietnam or Korea?  WWII?   (Police actions don't count).

How about eliminating tax exemptions for churches?  Why does that priest/minister/ rabbi etc really nead to drive a Mercedes?  How does it help society that they can spend $20 million on a new religious retreat/temple/.cathedral?  Let them pay taxes on that money which is not spent on charitable actions.  Make them declare their expenditures publicly to their membership, perhaps when it if found that a given "church" is wasting huge amounts the members will reform it.  This would nail the false religions bigtime and perhaps remove corruption in the legitimate ones.  

Make charities present details of expenditures that can be looked up when planning donations.  If a charity spends 98% of its money on things other than what they are supposed to be doing perhaps people would donate more to those that are run efficiently and actually help those they are supposed to be helping.  

[E_Look]

I'd hardly blame in general malnutrition, children's mental illnesses, poverty, and hunger in this country on the government.  Granted, the government bungles their own efforts to remedy such evils and granted, the rich and powerful have dominance in any society over those of us who are neither, I don't think it is wise to attack governmental endeavors that are positive, even if it does not directly or immediately ameliorate current evils.

I have personally been involved with people from the welfare underclass and their lives are not pretty.  However, government stupidity is only one factor and is not even a necessary cause.  They, these poor people, have some incredibly, uh, strange notions of how their lives should be lived and make some stunningly poor decisions.  And even when there are programs or opportunities that really will work if tried, they essentially refuse to take part.

Your sister's family apparently is different from this and seems also to be a haven, a bright, warm spot and I truly ask all God's blessings on them and their children.  But why are those children in their care?  I assume that their own parents have blown it somewhere down the line badly enough that authorities have determined that it is better their kids don't stay with them.  I have seen some of these "parents".  They have no clue how to be a human being; far be it from them to be able to show their kids how, then!  Your sister and brother in law's kindness is wonderful, but separate thing from another kind of spiritual, universal human benefit that is the space program.  I liken this more to (local) governments' providing essentially free public education- it may be rotten in some places, but works well in others and is basically a sound idea and generally of benefit to the people.

What was that about babies and bathwater?