Topic: Dictatorship by committee- check it out

[J. Carney]

 Dictatorship by Committee

Don't you all just love Cali.

Good intentions, but...  

[Khalee]

Well there is a town In Canada that prohibits smoking inside its town limits, How did I find out?, I had to pick up a load there one time, and part of the load info told me that. Said not to smoke inside the  truck while inside the town limits or you could be going to jail and have the truck impounded. Talk about going over board Id like to know how they intended to enforce it myself.

[Clark Kent]

I rarely like to generalize, but California seems to be the exception for me.  The whole premise that those people seem to operate on just drives me up a wall.  I won't say all californians are bad, cuz they aren't, not by a long shot, but the ignorance of the legislation that goes on over there is mindboggling...

CK

P.S. I like Latinas...
...And apparently Asian ladies as well...

[Interloper]

with all the smog and everything else who will notice the smoke?

J/K

Actually i agree with that, my parents smoked when i was younger and
I remember alot of times it got pretty bad in the car and you couldn't get
away from it.  Most smokers never realize how bad the smell is and how
powerful it is until they stop themselves.  

[Sethan]

Quote:
with all the smog and everything else who will notice the smoke?

Heard a bit on the news this morning - Santa Barbara county in CA has the worst air quality in the US.

[Wulgaru]

I don't agree with this piece of legislation, because as far as I'm concerned, the inside of a persons car is private property.  Now, I'm not sure if the law agrees with me on this, but that's just my opinion.  It's like trying to tell someone they can't smoke in their own home.  Granted, if you have children in the home you should refrain from doing so, but the onus is on you.

Quote:

"If the ultimate goal is to ban smoking, then have the courage to come up and say that," said Assemblyman Dennis Mountjoy, a Republican in the Democratic-dominated legislative body.

"Show me good science that shows that secondhand smoke is a problem. I don't know that they've proved that," Mountjoy added.

This quote I found particularly funny though.  It's a well known fact that second hand smoke is harmful, as there have been studies done on this before.  Even without the studies, it's common sense that something that is harmful when filtered and first hand, would be equally or even more so when unfiltered and second hand.  Did this guy put his brain in neutral when he made this comment?

[Clark Kent]

Playing devil's advocate, I've never heard of any actual proof that cigarette smoke causes cancer.  I've seen proof of a strong correlation between the two, but no proof of cause.  Now, do I believe that cigarette smoke increases the odds of you developing a type of cancer, especially lung cancer?  You bet your psterior I do, I just don't see the whole proof thing.  
If we're talking common sense, though, then common sense tells you not to breath in anything that's not clean air, but I think it all boils down to choice, and choice is paramount in this country.  You don't want to give choice to people, even if they are bent on making a stupid choice, then you have a serious contradiction to the bvery principles that this country is founded on.  Besides, as usual California governmentla policy is completely backwards.  They worry and cry and scream over the carcinogens in cigarette smoke, and totally ignore the ones filling the air because of the overpopulation and overly indulgant cities there.
Also, while many institutions and powers in this country do not agree with me, I stronlgy believe that your car is YOUR property, and what you do in it is YOUR business.  If you want to get on people for making stupid decisions, then most of this country needs to be punished, perhaps thrown in institutions so their decisions can be micromanaged, but that's not an ideal that this country was founded on.

CK

P.S.  I like Latinas...
...And apparently Asian Ladies as well...

[J. Carney]

Quote:
 I stronlgy believe that your car is YOUR property, and what you do in it is YOUR business.

My point in making this post. I wonder what Cali will try to do next- cause you know that anything that they do makes precidence for the U.S. Congress to pass legeslation and for the U.S. Supreme Court to defend it.

It boils down to the type of government that the ISC supposedly had- a tyranny of the majority supported by government by committee. The U.S. seems to be slowly loosing democracy to groups of 'committees' and 'fact finding groups' who magically make laws that we have never had any say in appear on the books 'for our own good.'

Personally, I quit smoking and dipping because I decided I wanted too- not because my friends and family were dying of tobacco-related health problems and not because the Feds were making it too expensive to continue (cause I always bought Marlboro Mediums or Lucky Strike unfilters and Copehagen Long Cut, reguardless of what was cheap).

You can't make a Utopia with laws- and somehow people keep forgetting that.

Quote:
P.S.  I like Latinas...
...And apparently Asian Ladies as well...

Personally, I like girls with a Fargo accent- but we all have our faults.

[Clark Kent]

Around my neck of the woods, they almost all have that accent, so it makes no nevermind to me...
I agree with you post.  It really bothers me thatr California is a leader in policy in the US, I don't think that state has earned that right, at all.  Yes, their laws are well meaning, but completely lack in common sense, and fail to adhere to the guidelines of the US constitution.  Qute frankly, i have no respect for the californian government.  
You're doubly right also: Utopia can't be made with laws.  It's sociology 101.  The strength of laws is the willingness of people to cpaitulate and put up with the law, assuming it doesn't fit with a society's moral and ethical ideals.  Besides, laws are guidelines, menat to show us the general way, not dictate every last mile of the trip.

CK

P.S.  I like Latinas...
....And apparently Asian ladies as well...

[Demandred]

I agree with the law - smoking in a confined area with children is child abuse. And I say that as a smoker.

[J. Carney]

Quote:
I agree with the law - smoking in a confined area with children is child abuse. And I say that as a smoker.  

Next they tell us we can't spank kids who don't listen. Or maybe that we have to have Gov't permission to have a kid.

Yes, it is a good idea to try and look out for kids.

What it is not a good idea to do is pass a 'morality law' by letting a committee say it is OK without letting the people vote on it first.

That is tyranny- just like taxation without representation.

Clark Kent-

Think you could box me up one of those Fargo accentsand mail her down here... I'll pay postage!

[Clark Kent]

I would, but don't feel like getting myself arrested right now.  However, make a trip up this way, talk about having kids and have a ring on hand, and several of them should pop out of the woodwork immediately.

CK

P.S.  I like Latinas...
....And apparently Asian ladies as well...

[Wulgaru]

Demandred Posted:

Quote:

I agree with the law - smoking in a confined area with children is child abuse. And I say that as a smoker.

I agree that smoking with children in a confined space can be seen as child abuse.  That said, I don't think the government should have the jurisdiction to invade a persons private property (ie. their vehicle).  The responsibility is the parents, pure and simple.

J. Carney Posted:

Quote:

Next they tell us we can't spank kids who don't listen. Or maybe that we have to have Gov't permission to have a kid.

Yes, it is a good idea to try and look out for kids.

What it is not a good idea to do is pass a 'morality law' by letting a committee say it is OK without letting the people vote on it first.

That is tyranny- just like taxation without representation.

While I agree with your position, the third paragraph is where I have problems.  This bill was introduced by an elected official by way of a commitee, and as such does have some legitamacy.  The government apparatus uses such commitees to debate in finer detail what policy initiatives and legislation it will persue.  You can't go to the people for a vote on every little issue, that's why we elect people to represent our interests.  It's the basis of representative government, and anything else would stray too close to being a pure democracy (ie. voting by the public on every policy initiative).

That said, you are correct in calling this a morality law, which I think the government should keep its bloody nose out of.  There are health concerns on this particular matter though, so the line on whether the government should involve intself is blurred.

(As I've typed this post, I've come to realize that I am torn on this one.  On one hand I believe that smoking in a confined space is abuse to the child, and therefore makes it a public health issue.  On the other hand, it seems to me to be another example of government encroachment on a persons private space.  I'm really confused as to where I stand on this...I agree with the legislation to a certain extent, but worry about it as well.)

[SL-Punisher]

Smoking causes cancer or heart disease. Come on now...don't try and say otherwise.

I respect smokers right to smoke, however, when it comes to polluting other peoples air I find it curious they are unwilling to respect others right to breathe clean air..especially their own children.

[Clark Kent]

Quote:
Smoking causes cancer or heart disease. Come on now...don't try and say otherwise.

I respect smokers right to smoke, however, when it comes to polluting other peoples air I find it curious they are unwilling to respect others right to breathe clean air..especially their own children.  

I didn't say that it doesn't, as I explained earlier, just that I have yet to see proof of cause.  Just making a distinction between my belief and what can be shown as fact.  Oh, and to be clear, i don't believe cigarette smoke causes cancer, I believe it can cause cancer,

CK

P.S.  I like Latinas...
....And apparently Asian ladies as well...

[SL-Punisher]

Smoke long enough and the possibility of cancer, heart disease, or serious health problems become almost 100%

[J. Carney]

Yes, those comittiees are made up of SOME of our elected officials- but forsomething to become a law ALL of those elected officials are supposed to vote. I think that's their (overpaid for doing it) job. I wouldn't have a problem with this law if ALL THE REPRESENTATIVES vouted it into being; but only a select few got any say. and those most likely don'trepresent the majority of the people.

You start picking and choosing who makes the laws then you start down a long, slow slide towards something unpleasant.

I don't like committees. They are shortcuts around Constitutional law.

And I'd like to think that I could have the ability to do as I wish on my own property, within reason. As much as many people hate it, tobaccoo is a LEGAL drug, and therefore possession and use of it is OK, even if people arestupid enough to hurt others by their actions. We mitigate this effect by banning it's use in public places; but in the privacy ofyour own home, you may do anything you wish as long as it's legal- and smoking (even around kids) is. I will say that never smoked inside a car or house when a kid was present, and even stobbed it out if a kid sat close by in a restraunt. This is just good manners. Since i've quit, I notice people doing this more often, but not always.

That is what any morality law boils down to- the government trying to rectify some defectt in a person's upbringing. It says  'don't worry about raising your kids right- we'll make laws to keep them in line.'

That's somethnig else I'm opposed to.

[Wulgaru]

The fact is Carney, while this bill may have been passed by a commitee, it still needs to go to the state assembly to be passed.  The purpose of commitees is to approve legislation before it goes to the assembly.  This bill cannot become law until it is run through the assembly, and the commitee passing it only means that it is one step closer to heading towards the assembly.

If the state assembly voted on every piece of legislation that was put forward, they would be voting every five minutes.  That's why commitees are tasked with approving legislation before they go to the assembly, so as to reduce the number of bills which are needed to be voted on.  It also helps to weed out the totally ridiculous ones, and like I said, this particular piece of legislation does have some legitamacy.

[SL-Punisher]

Yet there are restrictions on how you use that drug. In some states you can't smoke in resturants or bars.

[Clark Kent]

Quote:
Yet there are restrictions on how you use that drug. In some states you can't smoke in resturants or bars.  

I try not to make a case based on laws since laws are ultimately arbitrary and poorly thought out.

CK

P.S.  I like Latinas...
....And apparently Asina ladies as well...