Topic: Read something somewhere....whats your take on it?

[starforce2]

well, I don't think it's that surprising that  different races of startrek would be based on various human qualities. It is not that far fetched to assume that other sentient species on our level of evolution,  assuming such life exsists, would have the same qualities such as deception,  rage, ect. Makes perfect sense if  you think about it.

[Praxis]

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You mean besides Hary Mudd, The Tribble guy , can't remember his name, and the Great O'conna.... I think from the TNG episode......  What about Sisco's girlfriend.....  

Uh-huh.  Other than Sisko's girlfriend, a smuggler, they're all from TOS.  And in TOS the Federation were capitalists.  They owned businesses and owned actual stuff.

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In the words of Mr. Scott in The Undiscovered Country: "That's okay by me. I just bought a boat."

Again, TOS.  Kirk's time had capitalists.

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Sisco's dad has a resteraunt... Picard's family has a vinyard...........

Communists had resteraunts and farms too.  However they don't OWN it.  The government owns everything.

For example, if you were renting a resteraunt, would you own it?

Everyone in Star Trek has a job, yet no one actually has any form of money, and no one is paid for it.  No one is rich, except the high ranking starfleet officers (they get lusher quarters than everyone else and can order people around).  Does this sound like capitalism or communism?

And BTW how would he make anyprofit off a resteraunt if he charged for it when:

1) Theres no money
2) People can use food replicators for free


Interestingly enough, had you read the article, he mentioned that a lot of people will say stuff like, "Well Picard's family has a farm..." which is exactly what you did

To quote:

"Many also claim that the Federation is actually a free-market society, in defiance of the Federation's own claims and all of the above evidence, by mentioning things such as "so and so character has a nice collection of wine glasses in his quarters," or "Picard's family has a farm," etc. However, real-life communist citizens also had personal possessions, and multiple generations could live in a single house. Therefore, this would hardly prove that the Federation is a free market! The distinction between property and possession is critical: you can possess a house or a car without owning it (the terms "rent", "lease", and "company car" come to mind), and you can command a ship or direct a company without owning it."

 

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There are references to ownership of personal property all over Star Trek..... small and large.........   In TOS TNG DS9 VOY They all have had references to it....

In TOS, yes.  In Deep Space Nine, yes, because it was a Cardassian station and Quark owned a bar, and Sisko had to deal with Ferengi a lot.  And the Bajorans weren't Federation citizens.  However, there was very little property amongst the STARFLEET people.  Everyone had a replicator, everyone had the same kind of quarters- the only place where you bought stuff was in stores operated by NON Federation citizens such as Ferengi and Cardassians.

Voyager, sure, with alien races.  Not on the actual Federation ship.

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The accumulation of wealth may not be the primary concern of the federation, but you can't escape that almost everyone claimed personal property of some kind.
From ranches in Alaska to Yatchs.
 

Not really.

They have no money, so how can they buy stuff?  In Kirk's time they apparently had some kind of money, but not in TNG.

In fact, in one episode I saw Picard saved some people from the 20th century.  One guy wanted to check his portfolio, expecting a lot of interest.  Picard couldn't even understand the CONCEPT of a bank, of money, of businesses.

[Praxis]

BTW the Tribble guy was named Darvin, and he was a genetically altered Klingon, technically not a Federation citizen.

And it was TOS, when they HAD companies and were capitalist.

[scylis]

i believe by "tribble guy," they mean the merchant who was selling them, not the Klingon spy the tribbles outted.

and i seem to remember a good many instances in TOS and the movies where Kirk and others proclaimed the uselessness of the accumulation of monetary wealth in current Earth society. which is what's mentioned in TNG, too. so it's most likely that it's not the Federation, but EARTH and affiliated human colonies that's a SOCIALIST society, not communist. communism is a perversion of socialism which tends to involve dictators, FYI. a good number of Federation members in TNG and DS9 have shown a penchant for accumulating wealth, so that rules out the Federation as a whole being socialist or communist.

so the Federation is something its name is based off of: a Confederation. which is a very loose democratic nation that places emphasis on the rights, laws, and customs of the various member states over the larger federal gov't. each of the states is granted a great amount of freedom as to how they set up their society. so humans went the socialist route while, say, the Orions (the Federation members, not the pirates) like capitalism. as long as the will of the people of the member state is not being oppressed, it seems like the Federation government doesn't really care how you do things.  

[InragedSith]

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and i seem to remember a good many instances in TOS and the movies where Kirk and others proclaimed the uselessness of the accumulation of monetary wealth in current Earth society.

In TOS I don't recall any

Kirk did ask Scotty about his pay in one episode

In the movies I only recall ST4 and Kirk could have meant that money isn't the same as it is in the 20th century

 

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which is what's mentioned in TNG, too. so it's most likely that it's not the Federation, but EARTH and affiliated human colonies that's a SOCIALIST society, not communist. communism is a perversion of socialism which tends to involve dictators,

How many political parties exist in the TNG Federation?

Is the President elected by the public?

How long is the Presidents term?

Some of those questions have no answer so we can't determine how many politcal parties exist for example

For all we know there is only one political party in the TNG Federation

For all we know elections are like the the ones in Saddam's Iraq or Nazi Germany

Then again perhaps the Federation has countless parties and elections involve hundreds of canidates

There is no way to be certain you can't claim the Federation is or is not a dictatorship we know very little about the Federations government

Also we can't claim the socialism is only a human trait we haven't seen that many Federation aliens and we've only heard solicalist propaganda from a handful of starfleet officers

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FYI. a good number of Federation members in TNG and DS9 have shown a penchant for accumulating wealth, so that rules out the Federation as a whole being socialist or communist.

The Ferengi are not Fed citizens

[Praxis]

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and i seem to remember a good many instances in TOS and the movies where Kirk and others proclaimed the uselessness of the accumulation of monetary wealth in current Earth society.

He mentioned the USELESSNESS of the accumulation of wealth.  Then again, he asked Scotty about his pay.

He never said that they didn't HAVE money, only that it was useless to spend your whole life trying to accumulate it, a common philosophy.

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 which is what's mentioned in TNG, too. so it's most likely that it's not the Federation, but EARTH and affiliated human colonies that's a SOCIALIST society, not communist.

No, in TNG Picard says that they DON'T HAVE MONEY.

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 communism is a perversion of socialism which tends to involve dictators, FYI.

Tends but not neccessarily must have.

Every communist nation has had a dictator in our history, but a dictator is not a REQUIREMENT to have a communist economy.
However, if you are a dictator in charge of a country, making the country communistic is a smart move, because then the government (you) controls EVERYTHING, which is why most communist countries were controlled by dictators.

However, there could easily be a democratic communist nation if one was created, such as the Federation, where the government controls everything all the same, but the government isn't controlled by a single dictator but rather by a senate and president..

 

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a good number of Federation members in TNG and DS9 have shown a penchant for accumulating wealth, so that rules out the Federation as a whole being socialist or communist.

BUT they were always Ferengi or other races.  Additionally, they NEVER used any kind of Federation money, but did it behind the Federation's back with raw materials (gold pressed latinum).

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so the Federation is something its name is based off of: a Confederation. which is a very loose democratic nation that places emphasis on the rights, laws, and customs of the various member states over the larger federal gov't. each of the states is granted a great amount of freedom as to how they set up their society. so humans went the socialist route while, say, the Orions (the Federation members, not the pirates) like capitalism. as long as the will of the people of the member state is not being oppressed, it seems like the Federation government doesn't really care how you do things.  

The capitalist Orions were shown in TOS...I don't think they ever appeared as capitalists in TNG.

Have you ever noticed the total LACK of ships over earth?  Does no one own their own shuttlecraft?  Their own small ship?

It seems whenever they travel, Federation citizens have to use public transport like passenger transports, the equivilant of buses.  No one EVER owns their own ship- the Federation owns everything.

[scylis]

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In TOS I don't recall any

Kirk did ask Scotty about his pay in one episode

he does indeed, but remember the Federation is who pays him, not Earth.

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In the movies I only recall ST4 and Kirk could have meant that money isn't the same as it is in the 20th century

he could have also meant a lot of things.

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How many political parties exist in the TNG Federation?

Is the President elected by the public?

How long is the Presidents term?

Some of those questions have no answer so we can't determine how many politcal parties exist for example

For all we know there is only one political party in the TNG Federation

For all we know elections are like the the ones in Saddam's Iraq or Nazi Germany

Then again perhaps the Federation has countless parties and elctions involve hundreds of canidates

There is no way to be certain you can't claim the Federation is or is not a dictatorship we know very little about the Federations government

Also we can't claim the socialism is only a human trait we haven't seen that many Federation aliens and we've only heard solicalist propaganda from a handful of starfleet officers

you don't need political parties to hold elections. and considering the fact that all the series espouse the princibles of personal freedom, choice, and moral consideration for the wellbeing of others, most of the dictatorships people think of and communism is right out the window.

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The Ferengi are not Fed citizens  

did i say Ferengi? nope. the Orions seemed to be quite the trading people in TOS, though i can't remember any mention of them in that way in TNG. in DS9, Jake specifically mentions that humans don't use money, and not the Federation. since the governing establishments seen here and there in the Federation has been many and varied on a planetary scale, there's no telling how many still value monetary wealth and capitolism. there just isn't.

really, there just isn't any sure way to know what the truth is, and even if they come out and blatantly say it in a future series, i'm going to take it with a massive grain of salt, since not only is Roddenberry dead, but he liked to change his mind on how the future works, too.

however, i belive that Earth and all affiliated colonies that chose to have moved to a socialistic system of "government," while the Federation on the whole is quite accepting of many and various different ways of governing worlds while maintaing very loose to no control over the everyday lives of individuals, choosing rather to let the individual planets or systems maintain order in their own way. the Federation does maintain Starfleet to help police, protect, and expand the Federation as a whole, and maintains a senate and a president to set policy for the Federation as a whole and to settle large scale disputes and serve as a forum for the exchange of ideas both within and without the Federation.

that is my own, best guess based on what little they actually say. to me, it fits the best, but again, that's just me.  

[scylis]

look, Praxis, if Communism actually worked how it was supposed to and how it's claimed to work, it'd be socialism. if communism was really a form of government that made everybody equal, that did away with the need for individuals to strive to gain position and wealth for themselves and drove everyone to strive for the common good above all else like it so vehemently claims, that's socialism. true, Communism does take many of its elements from socialism, but most everything else it does runs counter to the "values and principles" that it espouses (i like that word today).

but that's not Star Trek.

what is is that there are plenty of instances in TNG and DS9 of transport and merchant ships not under the control of the Federation, but from various member worlds there in. while member worlds seem to lack their own personal militaries, many of the larger ones keep their own police forces, which includes police cutters and frigates to help combat piracy and serve as search and rescue in the even of an emergency.

i seem to remember the scientists from the episode that established the Warp Speed Limit having a ship not run by the Federation, if you'd like an example of a privately or planetarily owned and opperated ship in TNG/DS9.

[InragedSith]

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he does indeed, but remember the Federation is who pays him, not Earth.

The Federation is the government why would earth pay him?

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and considering the fact that all the series espouse the princibles of personal freedom, choice, and moral consideration for the wellbeing of others, most of the dictatorships people think of and communism is right out the window.

Wellbeing of others?

"Encounter At Farpoint"

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PICARD: I'm not a family man, Riker, and yet, Starfleet has given me a ship with children aboard.
RIKER: Yes, sir. And families...

 
"The Bonding"

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PICARD: I've always believed that carrying children on a starship... it's a questionable policy. Serving on a starship means accepting certain risks and dangers. But did Jeremy Aster make that choice?
TROI: Death and loss are an integral part of life everywhere. Leaving the boy on Earth would not have protected him from that.
PICARD: No, but Earth is not likely to be ordered to the Neutral Zone to repel a Romulan attack...

 
"Rascals"

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LURIN: We Ferengi do not bring our offspring along with us aboard ships.
RIKER: Then I suppose that's your loss. We consider our families to be one of our strengths.
LURIN: I think you will find they can also be a weakness. Unless you release the computer to our control, I will execute every child on this ship ... beginning with yours.
RIKER: Even you aren't that cruel.
LURIN: It is cruel to put children in danger by bringing them aboard a starship in the first place.

"Survivors"

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TROI: Captain, there are eleven thousand inhabitants in the colony. At this range I should be feeling something.... I'm not.
...
DATA: Sensors are scanning ninety degrees of longitude as we orbit. I am detecting no artificial structures, no vegetation, no bodies of water...
WORF: Lifeform readings are negative.
TROI: Could the colonists have escaped?
DATA: That is unlikely. Rana Four possessed no interstellar spacecraft

They sure do care about the wellbeing of their own citizens, women, and children

"Ensign Ro"

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KEEVE: Don't misunderstand. I for one believe the raid on the Federation outpost was poor judgment. You are innocent bystanders, and I cannot condone violence against those who are not our enemies.
PICARD: Then I don't understand why you are unwilling...
KEEVE: Because you are innocent bystanders ... you were innocent bystanders for decades as the Cardassians took our homes... as they violated and tortured our people in the most hideous ways imaginable... as we were forced to flee...
PICARD: We were saddened by those events... but they occurred within the designated borders of the Cardassian Empire...
KEEVE: ... and the Federation is pledged not to interfere in the internal affairs of others. How convenient it must be for you. To turn a deaf ear to those who suffer behind a line on a map.

Gee the Feds really do look out for the wellbeing of the Bajorians

as far as dictatorships you didn't give an example of a dictatorship the Federation lacks

"The Last Outpost"

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LETEK: And there is even more! We can prove the hu-mans are destroyers of legal commerce ... also that they selfishly withhold vital technology from backward worlds...
MORDOC: And necessary defensive weapons, too. We Ferengi are now challenge this hu-man madness...

Why is the Federation destroying legal commerce?

The Ferengi do claim to have proof and our "heros" never objected or challenged the Ferengis claim instead they change the subject

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did i say Ferengi? nope.

You didn't identify any race

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Jake specifically mentions that humans don't use money, and not the Federation.

The quote and the episode it comes from would be nice

The Federation does have credits but they are basicly worthless

Did Jake refer to humans in or outside the Federation?

[Fury_of_a_Seraph]

So

Federation = America
Klingons = Russia
Romulans = China
Lyrans = ?
Hydrans = Brittan
Kzinti = Japan
Tholians = Israel
WYN = Switzerland
LDR= ?
Seltorians = Palestine (i guess)
Gorn = Germany

Any others?

[InragedSith]

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what is is that there are plenty of instances in TNG and DS9 of transport and merchant ships not under the control of the Federation, but from various member worlds there in.

Name those worlds

And prove that said worlds are members of the Federation

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while member worlds seem to lack their own personal militaries, many of the larger ones keep their own police forces, which includes police cutters and frigates to help combat piracy and serve as search and rescue in the even of an emergency.

Not in canon

SF yellowshirts had to keep order on earth in "Paradise Lost"

And Leyton fully expected his coup to be a cake walk

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 seem to remember the scientists from the episode that established the Warp Speed Limit having a ship not run by the Federation, if you'd like an example of a privately or planetarily owned and opperated ship in TNG/DS9.  

where is the establishment that these scientists are Fed members and their ship is privately owned?

[InragedSith]

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So

Federation = America
Klingons = Russia
Romulans = China
Lyrans = ?
Hydrans = Brittan
Kzinti = Japan
Tholians = Israel
WYN = Switzerland
LDR= ?
Seltorians = Palestine (i guess)
Gorn = Germany

Any others?  

Maybe South Korea for the LDR and North Korea for the Lyrans

[Kmelew]

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So

Federation = America
Klingons = Russia
Romulans = China
Lyrans = ?
Hydrans = Brittan
Kzinti = Japan
Tholians = Israel
WYN = Switzerland
LDR= ?
Seltorians = Palestine (i guess)
Gorn = Germany

Any others?  

Maybe South Korea for the LDR and North Korea for the Lyrans  

The Lyrans are a tough one.  I remember reading SFB that the Lyrans' technology was superior to the Klingons, but that their political structure prevented them from being the dominant partner in their alliance.  

[Reverend]

Aye, it could be said that communism is a mutation of socialism... perhaps the old phrase 'absolute power corrupt absolutely' came from such instances in history where dictators, i.e. people in high political standing with amassed amounts of old money take over. Socialsim, and communism, on paper, sure are great sounding, but they never finished the equation with the human capacities for___.

So... all of us who have been playing Federation, have we been on the wrong side all this time? Maybe with no money, no ownership, nothing capitalist in view, is this the end product of that ''New World Order''? What is the difference between this and the hive mentality of the Borg, save that the Federation doesn't destroy races.... just, monetarily ''assimilate'' them? Thats heavy!    

[111wallace111]

Two points The Great Okona a second season episode......
His ship was damaged while trying to unite two lovers from diferent worlds......

Second All we have really seen in Star TRek is the military point of view... military life styles..... I think it's very difficult to judge an entire society base on only one aspect.  

We can all find things that will support any arguement we want to expound on.... The show was really everything to everybody..... and literally everything to somepeople......

What i think we see here is the fact that what it really was was a way of creating commentary on the world. reflected in art about our current world. many of the relevant issues of the day from interracial marriage to equal rights.. to sexuality have been looked at. Political systems and conflict, war and peace. Star Trek must be by it's nature a way for us to look at our world now, and see what we might do to make it better. Commentary and introspection combined with entertainingstories and realistic personalities.

That said I think sometimes the races in the series were interchangable....
SFB might have had ideas in mind for which was which but I would like to think that Gene was a little more alagorical when it came to that.
 

[InragedSith]

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Two points The Great Okona a second season episode......
His ship was damaged while trying to unite two lovers from diferent worlds......

Is he a citizen of the Federation?

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Second All we have really seen in Star TRek is the military point of view... military life styles..... I think it's very difficult to judge an entire society base on only one aspect.  

True but what about...

"The Neutral Zone"

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PICARD: A lot has changed in three hundred years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of "things". We have eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions. We have grown out of our infancy.

And Picards line in ST:FC about money nolonger being a driving force in our lives and we just work for the hell of it

And Troi's "Poverty, disease, war they'll all be gone in the next 50 years" propaganda line

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We can all find things that will support any arguement we want to expound on.... The show was really everything to everybody..... and literally everything to somepeople......

Not to mention not much is revealed about the governments, and politics of Star Trek

Our conclusions come from our interpretations of the evidence and our own bias

A fan of Trek will come to a diffrent conclusion then someone who hates Trek and an impartial observer will have their own conclusions

[Praxis]

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Great, I am compared to people with ridges on their heads, little morals, and prone ot blowing things up all day    

No you're not

In TOS, Klingons didn't have ridges, didn't have little morals, and didn't go about obsessively killing things.  They were just a mysterious race having almost a "Cold War" with the Federation, each side preparing for a conflict.


A good quote I've read:

"In the original series, the Klingons were an aggressive military superpower with expansionist ambitions. In the Cold War politics of the time, they obviously represented the USSR, while the Romulans just as obviously represented Red China. They appeared little different from us; they could be violent, aggressive, sly, cloying, or deceptive, just like us. But at the end of "Errand of Mercy", Kor reflected wistfully upon the grand battle that never was: "it would have been glorious!" Oh, from such humble beginnings did such a vast mythology grow ...

For some 20 years, it was widely understood that the Klingons were symbolically Russian communists, and throughout even the TOS movies, this theme remained clear. Kor's single line of dialogue did not figure too prominently in the fans' assessment of Klingon culture. But the TNG writers got it in their heads that Cold War politics were no longer appropriate in the politically correct 1990s, so they decided to rewrite the Klingons. What did they base the rewrite on? Kor's single line of dialogue. Kor mentioned his wistful desire for a "glorious" battle royale, and the ancient Vikings believed that death in battle was "glorious". That's enough of a connection for a brain bug; the writers decided that the Klingons had a similar history to our own, and that there were ancient Vikings in their past too. Naturally, the fans went along for the ride.

Time for this brain bug to start growing. In "Heart of Glory", Worf ran into Korris, a Klingon social reactionary who wanted to return to the bygone era of ancient warrior values. No big deal, right? This brain bug has grown as far as it's going to grow, right?

Wrong. Nobody seemed to notice that Korris was a dinosaur even among his own people. They noticed only that this was a cool new aspect of Klingon culture, so the writers grabbed this assumption and ran with it. They proceeded to construct an entire society around the notion that the Klingons were futuristic Vikings. The Viking contempt for a "straw death" became the Klingon contempt for a straw death (peaceful death away from battle). The Viking glorification of death in battle became the Klingon glorification of death in battle. The Viking raider ships became the Klingon Birds of Prey (which rapidly became the Klingons' principal combat vessel). Valhalla, the great hall of Viking warriors in the afterlife, became Stovokor, the great hall of Klingon warriors in the afterlife. The great feasts in Valhalla became the great feasts of Stovokor. They somewhat liberalized Klingon government (in which the Chancellor's daughter took control of the Empire in ST6) reverted to the Vikings' strict patriarchal society in which women were treated as chattel and not permitted to hold rank or power (the only two that tried were the Duras sisters, who were naturally portrayed as evil). The Vikings' patriarchal religion, with its patriarchal pantheon, became the Klingons' patriarchal religion (albeit mutated to conform to Judeo-Christian values, so it centred on a lone male prophet). The militarization of their society became so exaggerated that their battle armour became everyday clothes; while Klingon dignitaries wore leather in ST6, Klingon politicians wear full military body armour even in the highest offices of their own government in TNG.

The writers even resurrected the Vikings' primitive melee weapons, arming Klingons with large, gleaming bladed weapons that became more and more prominent in their fighting style until they seemed to constitute the Klingons' primary combat weapon by the time of DS9. Even the animism associated with some of the ancient Nordic pagan rituals returned. The Klingons were transformed from civilized people into animalistic predators who ate raw meat, growled ferally during lovemaking or when threatened, and treated the act of hunting not as a method of gathering food or as a sport, but as an eroticized ritual. Their appearance, altered for the TOS movies in order to make them look more alien, was altered again, in order to further this sub-human characterization. Look carefully at the teeth of Klingons in the TOS movies ST3 and ST6; they look just like human teeth, don't they? But in TNG, they began to look more and more like the teeth of wolves: sharp, jagged, and pointed every which way. From one scene in ST6 where a Klingon eats something with his hands (something which is entirely appropriate today with certain types of foods, and which can be easily chalked up to cultural awkwardness), the writers decided that Klingons are feral eaters too, and TNG-era Klingons eat the way my dog would, if only he had opposable thumbs.

What started as an enemy superpower with a mysterious but familiar alien culture became a farcical one-note alien society concocted around comic-book interpretations of ancient Norsemen and a not-so-subtle, rather disturbing white supremacist theme of subhuman, dark-skinned uncivilized savages. Before too long, it became a caricature of itself: Worf's pathetic obsession with the most garish aspects of Klingon history became the entirety of Klingon culture. It got so bad that we eventually saw the leadership of the entire Klingon Empire decided by a knife fight! I personally nominate this particular brain bug as a strong competitor for the Jeffries tubes' position as the most powerful brain bug in Star Trek."

[ModelsPlease]

Kirk was a  MAN-WHORE  and I think the original Enterprise should have had a Playboy bunny on her saucer and a jacuzzi in the officers lounge full of nekkid' space babes !!!! My take on things !
 
-MP