Topic: Which SFC game is your favorite?  (Read 32215 times)

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kevlar

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Re: OT:
« Reply #240 on: March 06, 2003, 03:33:42 am »
Quote:

Quote:

OT but had to say it :Sid Meier was and is one of the "great ones".
I still remember playing one of his games, "Pirates" ,in 2 disks  that monoplized the drive of the Amiga 500 for like 1 year.  




Wasn't that released for the C64 too? Right around the time of PoR (Pools of Radiance) I believe.

Best,
Jerry





Not sure. My power curve was zx spectrum 48k-Amiga 500- Amiga 1200- PC , so I hadn't great knowledge of the CBM 64 market   Nevertheless, considering that  every Microprose/LABS ( and Cinemaware too) tittle  rocked on those days  and that a success on one of the machines was, if possible, pacely ported to the other; probably it wes also released for the C64.

hmmm...this gives me a total  Of topic  idea.....a doctors degree tesis on the history of computer games ... now only  have to convince the people that guide tesis to accept something so unorthodox .


edit: after a bit of research , I can say that you are correct,  Pirates was released for the CBM 64 .
« Last Edit: March 06, 2003, 04:15:56 am by kevlar »

Toasty0

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Re: OT:
« Reply #241 on: March 06, 2003, 04:26:00 am »
Quote:

Not even SFC1 sold 500,000 copies in 90 days...and that was the best selling game in the series.

I just don't see that as being possible...not for a niche game like SFC.

Does anyone know how many copies Bridge Commander sold?  




I misspoke---that was 100,000 units...not 500,000 as I originally posted.

Btw, fwiw, SFC(1) sold 350,000 copies in its first year of release*. That is still 150,000 units shy of a "profitable" title according to Erik Bethke in his book  " Game Development and Production " .

*Game development and Production, Erik Bethke--Chapter 3, pp24.

Best,
Jerry  
« Last Edit: March 06, 2003, 04:27:05 am by Toasty0 »

kevlar

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Re: OT:
« Reply #242 on: March 06, 2003, 05:32:15 am »
It would be interesting to have some  numbers on the sales of SFC2; Op and SFC3.  

Reptor7

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Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
« Reply #243 on: March 06, 2003, 07:05:32 am »
OP. Yep, OP is my favorite. The GFL did a complete swich from EAW to OP, but the OP D2 problems and the attention/fixes that EAW received eventually had the GFL going back to EAW for a good reason.

Now, I do like SFC3, and it would be my favorite if there were more races and missions out of the box, and the beta patch getting yanked by Activision didn't help. I don't see any SFB rules arguments as SFC3 is it's own beast and stands on its own. There's room for both.

Actually, I'm kinda glad the SFC series has halted. Every time we get settled into a new game, a new one pops up and fragments the commuinity, followed by "this version is better than that version" arguments that further fragments the SFC community. We can finally settle in and get some gaming done, in the preferred version of our choice.  And with OP finally getting the attention it deserves, I'll be flying ISC once again soon if the D2 is fixed, but I won't abandon SFC3.

Speaking of ISC (shameless plug), ISC Theater Centurions episode 8 is now showing:

http://isctheater.50megs.com

 Enjoy!
« Last Edit: March 06, 2003, 07:08:57 am by Reptor7 »

TheSatyr

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Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
« Reply #244 on: March 06, 2003, 11:40:26 am »
100,000 units in 90 days is certainly doable.

I think SFC3 came close to that. I've heard it sold around 90,000 copies so far.,which is better than OP supposedly did.(Heard  around 80,000 total units sold for OP.).

But you do have to take sales figures with a grain of salt,since it depends on just where those figures are coming from. Different sourses give you different figures.

These are the general numbers I've seen for the various games in the series:
SFC1-around 450,000 units.
SFC2-around 250,000 units.
OP-around 80,000 units.
SFC3-around 90,000 units.(So far).

The problem with those figures is that it is never specified if these are world wide sales or just US sales.

Now...compare that to an RTS like Empire Earth which supposedly sold over 1,000,000 copies world wide. And I don't even wanna know how many copies of the various "Sims" games got sold.  

KBF-Dogmatix

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Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
« Reply #245 on: March 06, 2003, 12:33:13 pm »
Quote:

Apparently what passes for a true Star Trek game is mostly rubbish, at least from the point of view of somebody who finds Napoleonic miniatures, Panzer Blitz and SFB enjoyable. I think that Sid Meier is responsible for a lot of angst since he made Age of Rifles and let me first enjoy PC games.

Anyhow if there is nothing else to look forward to except FPS and RTS games based on how quick your reflexes are then something is going to be missing for a while. Patching OP will fill that void for a bit I suppose, but I don't see anything else on the horizon. A LAN version of OP would be useful too. Even very good looking games like ORB and Haegemonia still can't give you the same combined tactical and strategic multiplayer experience though.

Best not to think about the future in case it happens.    




Indeed.


Perhaps we ought not to keep attempting to make whatever version of SFC into SFB, but we sure ought to be able to adapt some of the principles that provide the tactical depth most of us know and love from SFB to SFC.  We ought also be able to come up with some sort of online campaign system that provides a heck of a lot more strategic depth than DV3, or even DV2, for that matter.  I'm among the many who were incredibly disappointed by the fact that DV3 did little or nothing to improve on DV2, and in some cases, DV3 seems to have unlearned what was learned during the history of DV2.  Frankly, I'm at a loss to understand how that can happen.  Over the past two years, we've playtested and developed DV2 to just about as far as it will go and the apparent result of that learning is....DV3!?

If I had to pick the single-most disappointing thing about SFC3, it's the implementation of DV3.  Frankly, that's why I bought the game...in the hopes that DV3 would be better.


I guess I'm not sure why applying these concepts continues to fail.


 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by KBF-Dogmatix »

KBF-Dogmatix

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Re: OT:
« Reply #246 on: March 06, 2003, 12:37:02 pm »
Quote:

OT but had to say it :Sid Meier was and is one of the "great ones".
I still remember playing one of his games, "Pirates" ,in 2 disks  that monoplized the drive of the Amiga 500 for like 1 year.  





A skipped a few-days worth of classes at university to play Pirates on my old 80286.  Loved that game.



 

FireSoul

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Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
« Reply #247 on: March 06, 2003, 12:53:10 pm »
Quote:

Perhaps we ought not to keep attempting to make whatever version of SFC into SFB, but we sure ought to be able to adapt some of the principles that provide the tactical depth most of us know and love from SFB to SFC.  We ought also be able to come up with some sort of online campaign system that provides a heck of a lot more strategic depth than DV3, or even DV2, for that matter.  




.. .. yes, but to what extent? Introduction of completely non-SFB features like warping around annoy me..

.. as for a more in-depth campaign system, I have a few ideas I want to toy with. However I have more pressing SFC-related things to do right now, believe it or not. Stay tuned.

-- Luc
FireSoul

**DONOTDELETE**

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Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
« Reply #248 on: March 06, 2003, 02:17:38 pm »
The optimum solution would be for the game to have a slider between the rulesets....

SFB<----------()--------->TV

Imagine how much money could be made if they made everyone happy at the same time with the same game  

**DONOTDELETE**

  • Guest
Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
« Reply #249 on: March 06, 2003, 03:24:27 pm »
The problem is, there have been more "PURE TREK" titles than you can shake a stick at, and about 99% of them have been less than stellar, to put it mildly.

Interplay, and then Taldren were the ONLY ones to make this, admittedly, "niche" game, which IMHO is far superior to ANY Trek game, ever. I even say that SFC3 is far superior to any Trek game, ever.

However, for some reason, those who are enamored of "Canon" and "Pure Trek" decided to come to this "niche" game, this SINGLE SERIES out of ALL Trek games and then decided that it needed to "Evolve" and "Grow" beyond its SFB roots.

Why?

The idea that its 20+ run of playtime is a hinderance is simply illogical. We obviously all have our opinions on the SFB system, and its effect on SFC, but the bottom line is that the first 3 titles were made on the SFB system.

Unfortunately, Taldren bowed to the pressure of the Non-SFB'ers who decided they needed to come "evolve" the one single series of games EVER made to emulate SFB and that started with OP. While the 1X ships were dead-on balls accurate for the most part, the 2X ships were simply TNG cheese in an SFB package. There were/ARE SFB 2X ships, that look nothing like the TNG inspired OP 2X ships, nor do they have all the cute weapons Taldren made out of whole cloth.

Now there is SFC:TNG. I wanted to hate it, as you all know, but it is actually a pretty good game. I still switch off between single player in TNG and OP as neither title has a WORKING dynaverse to date and is therefore mainly unplayable online.

I find it laughable that Taldren went out of their way to form a company that produced EAW, an ENTIRELY SFB based game, but some say that SFB has run its course and SFC should "evolve."  Why then, didnt Iplay/Taldren simply make a TNG game in the first place? ANSWER: There are so many Trek/TNG games out there that the market IS saturated with it, SFB/SFC was a new and fresh venture and attracted many who were tired of "twitch/point and shoot" games. On Taldrens website it says SFC1 sold over 600,000 copies, and those are old numbers, I still occasionaly see SFC1 in a bargain bin somewhere on the cheap.  

Indeed, how many have we seen on these very boards, such as theSea and many others who, after playing SFC, and having never heard of SFB have gone out and started playing SFB? Taldren even put basic SFB manuals and SSD's on the first 3 game CD's for heavens sakes, it seems obvious where they were headed.

But things changed and they had to go with Activision who took over the Trek lic. And Activision wanted a "simplified and streamlined" (no denials please, Ferell said it and others have said it. It even says it in that pc gamer review) game that was more "accessable (read dumbed down for the masses) with a TNG movie tie-in with Nemesis.

Nemesis has come, gone, and will now silently go to DVD with little fanfare, yet another nail in the coffin that B+B have layed Trek in. Likewise, the "HUGE new fanbase that the move to TNG and the Nemesis tie-in" were supposed to attract have apparently not materialized... most likely due to the general lack of interest in Trek in general these days.

Also, it would be fascinating (tho impossible) to see how many of those SFB fans who bought the 600K+ copies of SFC1 and the 250K+ copies of EAW DIDNT buy SFC3 and how that compares to the number of NEW players attracted by the TNG/Nemesis move. (Granted, OP tanked, but a stand-alone expansion 6 months after the original release was a slap in the face to many. AND a stand-alone expansion with all the same bugs as EAW and with all NEW bugs specific to itsself. If OP had released as a true "expansion" or 1 year after the release of EAW and/or especially in a somewhat playable online fashion I imagine its sales would have come much closer to those of EAW.)

Bottom line, the move to TNG might not have killed SFC, but it sure hasnt HELPED it as predicted by some. If it has only sold 90K copies WITH the TNG move AND the Nemesis tie-in, as opposed to OP's 80K(+/-), which would have, IMHO sold much better if some of the items listed above had happened) then it can be called nothing short of a HORRIFIC FLOP.

Hmmmm, how about, Taldren puts out GaW, andtimes it with a Paramount big-screen re-release of the DVD version of ST:TWOK for a movie tie-in with a ticket in each box... how do ya think THAT would sell, eh?  

You would see 30-60ish Trek fans line up in DROVES for a TWOK re-release, and Activision/Taldren could even offer demo disk at the movie theaters (like blizzard did with WC3) with a newly re-worked for GaW Enterprise/Kirk vs Reliant/Khan duel on it!!

Now THATS a movie tie-in and would get all us old fart TOS/TMP Trek fans with plenty of spare cashe to buy the game, most likely in larger numbers than ever before. After all, SFC IS a niche product and many have probably simply  never HEARD of it, much less played it.

To close, for those who are dissing old, niche board games, I give you a few examples...

D+D
(complete with EverQuest, DungeonSiege, and all the other D+D/AD+D titles based on it)
Harpoon(currently in release 4)
Battletech/Mechwarrior(currently in release 4, with 2 stand-alone expansions released LONG after the initial release, each with improvements and upgrades to keep it new and interesting.

Give it some time, let Taldren make some well-deserved cash on B9 and whatever Polaris is (???) and then return to its roots, with GaW.

Have a nice day!  

 

Mantis

  • Guest
Re: OT:
« Reply #250 on: March 06, 2003, 03:48:13 pm »
Quote:


Btw, fwiw, SFC(1) sold 350,000 copies in its first year of release*. That is still 150,000 units shy of a "profitable" title according to Erik Bethke in his book  " Game Development and Production " .

*Game development and Production, Erik Bethke--Chapter 3, pp24.
 




I would like to see the breakdown of why it takes 500,000 copies to be a "profitable" title. That seem like a very large number if you have an efficiently run project. Is that in the book (if so, I may purchase it)? I know of companies that sell less and yet are profitable. I realize much of the revenue actually goes to licensing, but there should be a sizable chunk left. Of course Picard can't be cheap. What are all the "hidden" expenses? Now for a "large" shop, they may not look at anything less than 500,000 units since they are more revenue driven.  Just an interesting topic to me  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by macman »

3dot14

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Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
« Reply #251 on: March 06, 2003, 07:05:00 pm »
Quote:

The optimum solution would be for the game to have a slider between the rulesets....

SFB<----------()--------->TV

Imagine how much money could be made if they made everyone happy at the same time with the same game    



A slider! well! that's certainly a new one!

I have another idea. why couldn't Paramount do a TV series based ON SFB?!

The problem nowadays with trek is all the shows are disjoint, plotlines rarely, VERY rarely go through more than 3 episodes. Imagine the boost of a continous war and peace scale of tv show which SFB's history can provide?

The fact is Babylon 5 works/worked! and Enterprise doesn't (hasn't)!

That's proof enough TV fans would prefer to watch a prolonged struggle over "alien-ofthe-day"

kevlar

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Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
« Reply #252 on: March 06, 2003, 07:59:27 pm »
"D+D
(complete with EverQuest, DungeonSiege, and all the other D+D/AD+D titles based on it)
Harpoon(currently in release 4)
Battletech/Mechwarrior(currently in release 4, with 2 stand-alone expansions released LONG after the initial release, each with improvements and upgrades to keep it new and interesting."


I like the way you argument ATJK. In fact if I was defending a position similar to yours, I probably had used similar argumentation. That is why I like to counter argument you.
Still, I would have avoided the D&D argument. If actual D&D PC games exist, they own it to a many times criticised title called Diablo. Problem is that, as many like to point, Diablo was a ?dumbed? version of D&D.
Why was it so attractive then?

For starters, having played the old SSI/Westwood games, when I got Diablo my jaw almost broke just by looking at the graphics and sound. Diablo was light years ahead of  something like Eye of Beholder III. The magic item generation system was also something really unique in the way it worked -and still works on Diablo II, granting immense replay ability to that particular game. Finally, there was the ?cherry?, the multiplayer options, especially the concept of a free online game network like battle.net.

If it wasn?t for the success of Diablo, I doubt that we would had the Baldurs Gate and Icewind Dale series or Fallout?s and Torment on the time frame we had. Even Dungeon Siege and NWN.  They are all sub products of the commercial success of a single game, that was in fact a rolled down and mass engineered version of the classic RPG game concept, strengthen by the expansion of the internet of course.  

Even so, until Blizzard and Diablo proved that CRPG?s could be a great success when combining good graphical and sound capabilities, no other company was willing to economically support the development costs of a technologically advanced RPG game, despite the existence of the Dungeons and Dragons audience.  Diablo also proved that RPG?s didn?t need to blindly follow a previously conceived universe or rule set.

The Diablo legacy is clear in NWN, and Bioware has bombarded with complaints of the Baldurs Gate super fans for having, in their words, ?dumbed? the game. Still, Neverwinter Nights was, and is, according to Bioware, their greatest success in terms of raw sales numbers. And one of the reasons for that success is the ability of NWN to attract even non serious RPG players like, and pardon the French, moi meme.    
Baldurs Gate, on the other hand, proved that it was possible to cement a commercial success over the huge D&D fan base if the game engine had good graphical capabilities.

 Both the games were ground-breaking in terms of GFX. Same happens with StarFleet Command 1, that for it?s time had a good mix of playability, graphical support and multiplayer. On top of that, there was also the modelling community that kept the game ?fresh?. The combination of all that probably made the game sell 300000 or 400000 units. When SFC2 was released, the game engine was starting to loose his grip, but still, the game attracted the large majority of the SFC 1 public, mostly because IMOH of the Dynaverse promise.  

After SFC2, it is what we all know. OP wasn?t a commercial success for various reasons, SFC3 has its problems on a time where the ST franchise also deals with audience problems, but it?s also somewhat outdated in terms of graphical engine.  

What I?m trying to point is that the first two SFC tittles had good sales because they were ground- breaking in their own terms, something that neither OP was or SFC3 is.  

I can?t make a sociological analysis of harpoon?s player base. I play it sometimes and not dislike the game, but started to play it almost obligated when attending the navy officers course. After exiting the navy I play Harpoon gradually less. Still I don?t think that Harpoon and SFC are players of the same league.
 You got me with the battletech and Mechwarrior though. Since I never bought or played any of them, I can say nothing.
 

kevlar

  • Guest
Re: OT:
« Reply #253 on: March 06, 2003, 08:03:30 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

OT but had to say it :Sid Meier was and is one of the "great ones".
I still remember playing one of his games, "Pirates" ,in 2 disks  that monoplized the drive of the Amiga 500 for like 1 year.  





A skipped a few-days worth of classes at university to play Pirates on my old 80286.  Loved that game.



 





Hehe.,.. Happy to know I wasn't the only one skipping classes, in my case the eleventh grade,  to play it:). Damn, I loved being an irresponsable teenager. One of this days I have to skip work just to play something.  

KBF-Dogmatix

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Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
« Reply #254 on: March 07, 2003, 08:33:50 am »
Quote:

Quote:

Perhaps we ought not to keep attempting to make whatever version of SFC into SFB, but we sure ought to be able to adapt some of the principles that provide the tactical depth most of us know and love from SFB to SFC.  We ought also be able to come up with some sort of online campaign system that provides a heck of a lot more strategic depth than DV3, or even DV2, for that matter.  




.. .. yes, but to what extent? Introduction of completely non-SFB features like warping around annoy me..

.. as for a more in-depth campaign system, I have a few ideas I want to toy with. However I have more pressing SFC-related things to do right now, believe it or not. Stay tuned.

-- Luc
FireSoul  





The only think I like about the warping around in SFC3 is the ability to save time closing in on AI targets and the ability to get the hell of the map in a snap.  I'd gladly live without that to see "tactical warp" either go away or be severely limited.



As for "to what extent."  Good question...and one that will likely never be answered difinitively, though we have been trying for quite some time around here.  


 

FireSoul

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Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
« Reply #255 on: March 07, 2003, 08:36:46 am »
Quote:


The only think I like about the warping around in SFC3 is the ability to save time closing in on AI targets and the ability to get the hell of the map in a snap.  I'd gladly live without that to see "tactical warp" either go away or be severely limited.

As for "to what extent."  Good question...and one that will likely never be answered difinitively, though we have been trying for quite some time around here.  
 





.. well.. there *IS* a "get the hell out of there" warping-out method in SFB: disengagement through acceleration.
.. but I'm afraid there's nothing for closing in on the enemies.

-- Luc

KBF-Dogmatix

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Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
« Reply #256 on: March 08, 2003, 08:53:52 am »
Very true, FireSoul.  I say I like it only because it's convenient...not because I think it's terribly good for any other reason, including realistic or reasonable....heheh.


Like I said, I'd prefer it's use be severely limited...(far longer warm-up and exiting sequences or a finite number), or just taken out altogether.  All the warp prancing gets on my nerves...heheh.



 

FireSoul

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Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
« Reply #257 on: March 08, 2003, 09:20:34 am »
The main issue I have against warping is..
..well..

.. because of it, you can't have seeking weapons.

-- Luc

**DONOTDELETE**

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Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
« Reply #258 on: March 08, 2003, 11:10:50 am »
Kevlar:
          You are using a circular, i.e. "which came first, the chicken or the egg" argument. Without Diablo, D+D would be dead? Thats debateable, as there always have been D+D/AD+D titles on the pc, albeit nowhere near as easy for multi as D1+2 both are (of which I have both and play frequently D2 still.) so saying that D has kept D+D alive is questionable. I have Dungeon Siege, Baldrus Gate2 and Pool of R all in my cd holder, and all are FAR more indepth that D, but very difficult to play in multi so I stick with D for that. I agree, D is HIGHLY "dumbed down" compared to D+D, even more so that SFC3 is than OP, but not more so than SFC is than SFB in general.

However, it is HIGHLY unlikely that without D+D there would have ever been a Diablo, wouldnt you agree?

You make good points that SFC1 was evolutinary, and I myself would have liked to have seen a new engine sometime in the series. However, with such a short release span, having the same engine isnt really that bad, IMHO.  I personally would rather have a new and improved game with the same engine every year than one game every 2-3 years with a new engine. Unless, of course we got the new game every 2-3 years with one or more expansions (NOT stand alone) in the intervening time to hold me over.

Anyway, thanks for replying and making points, I agree that it is nice to debate points and not feelings or vauge predictions.

Have a nice day!  
 

kevlar

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Re: Which SFC game is your favorite?
« Reply #259 on: March 08, 2003, 12:05:48 pm »
you missed one thing that is important on my D&D/diablo argument: Time frame. I said that without the sucess that was diablo we would not have had more serious CRPG's on the timeframe we had them.  

"However, it is HIGHLY unlikely that without D+D there would have ever been a Diablo, wouldnt you agree?"

Actually more or less. And I explain. Years ago I had the chance, on a fan chat,  to ask Eric schaeffer if he was influenced by the D&D when designing diablo. He answered something like " The influence come more from tolkiens books." and later the said that with diablo blizzard  wanted to step aside from the Dungeons and Dragons universe.

Course that when he look to things like "hitpoints" and such there a couple of legacy concepts in diablo taken from table games ( read D & D) . Even so diablo, especially Diablo 1,  didn't followed a "solid ruleset"- still remember my fighter dishing out fireballs and chain lightnings almost as well as a wizzard.

You are right. The release span didn't left much time for critical engine improvements. Still, I feel that the sales  problems with Op and SFC 3 are more  related with less ground breaking features than anything else. we all know that games with great graphics tend to sell more, even if people only play them for two or three days.
If SFC3 had, for example,  breath taking graphics it would have sold much better, despite whatever gameplay problems the game locks in itself. And probably Activision would had negociated  either a  expansion or a  follow up tittle    

 
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by kevlar »