Topic: Growing Lettuce on Mars (Read 11400 times)

Stormbringer · « **on:** April 22, 2004, 04:54:05 pm »

Mars Greenhouse

Apparently plants can grow in the mars atmospheric gases and pressure. I'm amazed.

Sirgod · « **Reply #1 on:** April 22, 2004, 05:17:40 pm »

If anything, I wonder how the gravity will affect the plants.

man Genetics itself would be Incredible on that planet given the current amosphere.

Great find storm.

Stephen

Stormbringer · « **Reply #2 on:** April 22, 2004, 05:22:23 pm »

A low gravity environs wouldn't do much to little plants so long as there is enough for them to detect which direction is up and which is down. A low G environment might have profound effects on Big plants (like trees) that are limited by gravity as to how tall they can get. There might be giants.

Sirgod · « **Reply #3 on:** April 22, 2004, 05:33:06 pm »

Where is that one type of tree that grows upside down? I seem to recall a whole forest of these guys, It seems there roots are still in the ground, But the foliage Grows towards the Earth instead of upwards towards the sun.

sorry If that's Vague.

stephen

Stormbringer · « **Reply #4 on:** April 22, 2004, 05:37:13 pm »

OK I get your meaning. Over evolutionary time scales the genetic limits for growth limit would be selected out and they would all evolve bigger. Such an effect would happen almost instantly for trees as mechanical and structural engineering principles more than genetics determines some of thier hieghts. They get too big they can't feed thier crown. They get too tall they colapse under thier own wieght or get blown over etc. the low gravity would allow them to grow taller than earth constraints would and I say that for certain trees that would result in a single genration. As thier genes are not what limits them.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #5 on:** April 22, 2004, 05:39:36 pm »

there are several that are like that. A few naturally and a few that were bred for it. Many of the "weeping" varieties of trees do this and most of those are specially bred varieties.

Sirgod · « **Reply #6 on:** April 22, 2004, 06:31:02 pm »

Good point, My friends family still has a weeping Vrity that grows Fresh Cherry's about this time of year. Still the very idea that Vegitable matter has a chance there...

Amazing. a few square thousand Miles of Green Vegitation and voila, we have a breathable atmosphere for us in a way. as Long as Nitrogen and Oxygen doesn't bleed out into space.

stephen

Stormbringer · « **Reply #7 on:** April 22, 2004, 06:37:57 pm »

In my" lets build a planet thread" someone cited 26 million or more years for oxygen bleed away from mars given it's present physical parameters. But realistically they are talking about a green house because of factors such as temperature and radiation. But yes the fact that a plant couldotherwise survive and thrive is astonishing.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #8 on:** April 24, 2004, 09:52:30 pm »

But you should see the rabbits, Ba-Da-BUMP!

Ravok · « **Reply #9 on:** April 24, 2004, 10:17:46 pm »

Thanks again for the info.

I love these posts!!

Praxis · « **Reply #10 on:** April 25, 2004, 10:41:31 am »

The problem with growing plants on mars is how cold it gets at night. It's a bit chilly by day even in the warmest parts, and at night it's well below freezing. You'd have frost every morning.

This might be good for plants like Persimmons (sp?) that ripen after frost though

Sure, a greenhouse would help keep the heat in, but there would be less heat than on earth (due to more distance from the sun) for the greenhouse to trap. Maybe plants that thrive in cold weather here would survive in a greenhouse there.

IKV Nemesis D7L · « **Reply #11 on:** April 25, 2004, 10:49:24 am »

Now to do it in Martian soil and gravity.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #12 on:** April 25, 2004, 12:33:46 pm »

Of course it would have to be heated (lol) no plant I'm aware of can survive at 125 (or more) degrees below zero. The real news here was that the atmospheric pressure and gas mixture of Mars supports earth plants without genetic modification. The soil; unless it contains toxins (and as far as I know it does not) would quickly become earthlike due to bacteria and decaying plant matter. IOW nothing more need be done than is done by hobbeist gardeners to ammend the soil. After a while the soil ammendment would probably be self sustaining as a full ecosystem develops. Gravity, so long as some is there, is not an issue. Plants mostly use gravity to determine up and down. There may be structural changes but I believe small less massive plants are less dependant on gravity as an engineering factor.

Ravok · « **Reply #13 on:** April 25, 2004, 02:55:26 pm »

This is just staggering to me, The implications for Terraforming And atmosphere production........!!! I really don't know what to say.
We need to stop killing each other get allong, and be out there where we belong!!!!.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #14 on:** April 25, 2004, 03:24:39 pm »

It could be done even now. Unfortunately the vast bulk of humanity, even in developed countries, have no drive or vision concerning this sort of thing. Until attitudes about it change we will continue to creep along at less than a snails pace. Yet perhaps the seeds of change are being sown in the form of the X prize and the nascent commercialization drive for space. will eventual move this from the realm of dreamers and visionaries to the common thoughts of the majority. When the world at large no longer views it as an empty fantasy it will happen.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #15 on:** April 25, 2004, 03:31:55 pm »

I found one of them in one of my plant catalogs. I can get the name and ordering info if you like. It is a type of Bao bob tree from Aftrica. However if it is offered in nursery catalogs then it will grow here. A tree that is not supposed to grow here like the Brazil Nut tree i'm going to see if that is true or not. It is one of the only cash crops that is collected entirely from the wild as it is not easy to cultivate. Propagation is possible however because I've seen seedlings growing in pots.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #16 on:** April 25, 2004, 03:49:37 pm »

Of course the above thought brings up the argument against keeping the colony sterile. It cannot be done if soil based gardening is done. The soil needs bacteria, molds, fungi, and even critters like worms to be ammended into true living "earth." The alternatives hydroponics and just importing bulk food are not very attractive if mars is ever to be more than a research outpost. We will have to "contaminate" the pristine environment in order to conquer it.

Ravok · « **Reply #17 on:** April 25, 2004, 04:10:27 pm »

I wonder because of them finding Martian meteors here, That the reverse has happened on Mars and contamination has already happened. Anyway does any body know if the probes sent so far have been sterile?If not it has probably happened already.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #18 on:** April 25, 2004, 09:05:46 pm »

Probes are supposed to be sterile but the viking landers were contaminated and now have bacteria happily eating thier insulation. This has been reported in releases from NASA and has resulted in the tightest clean room standards for any probes since then.

The metoer probably did not contain living organisms but rather what are disputedly called fossils. The same sort of thing could happen from earth but is not as likely as stuff coming in from the outer (relatively speaking) system due to the escape energy needed to go away from the sun rather than towards it. If the energy were applied all at once it would most certainly vaporize the would be earthling meteor heading to Mars. However it could happen incrementally by successive perturbations or gravity assists from planets or asteroids or whatever.

Bacterial spores can survive in space. Otherwise there would be none to eat the insulation of the viking probe. However it is the trip into space that such a meteor would have to take that it is unknown that microbe spores could survive.

Ravok · « **Reply #19 on:** April 25, 2004, 09:45:30 pm »

I remember reading a article about one of the probes having a problem with contamination, But i could not remember which.
Thanks again for the info i can't get enough of it.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #20 on:** April 25, 2004, 11:31:49 pm »

I'm not certain but it may also be true of the left behind portions of the LEMs as well. I dunno how they would tell. And obviously they would be anerobic.

Ravok · « **Reply #21 on:** April 25, 2004, 11:43:07 pm »

The ones on Mars eating the insulation blew me away!! I would love to see what they evolve into. In acouple of Billion years.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #22 on:** April 25, 2004, 11:49:33 pm »

If the little bugger's ever make the transition down into the soil then we can say the terraforming has already begun! Of course there *may* already be martian microbes there. If so I'd like to see what the differences in the DNA is like. A close similarity would be harder to explain as parallel evolution and would argue a common origin for both sets of DNA. Say the organic material from comets? The archea order of microbs might have been originally space farers themselves.

Ravok · « **Reply #23 on:** April 26, 2004, 02:09:10 am »

Ive thought the same if they find life in the Oceans of Europa, Personally i favor the comet theory my self.
But what the heck I'm nothing but an arm chair astronomer anyway.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #24 on:** April 26, 2004, 10:56:13 am »

Speaking of which:

microfossils and mars rocks

This article shows strong evidence for rock munching bugs from 3.5 million years ago and mentions a link (URL is in article) to possible mars or cometary origins for the critters. Rock munching bacteria are the sort which could survive in a present Mars environment. Now they are waiting for peer reviewed confirmation of thier work. Gotta love space.com.

SPQR Renegade001 · « **Reply #25 on:** April 26, 2004, 11:50:52 am »

Quote:

Probes are supposed to be sterile but the viking landers were contaminated and now have bacteria happily eating thier insulation. This has been reported in releases from NASA and has resulted in the tightest clean room standards for any probes since then.

Are we positive the probe was contaminated here? I mean, was there a recorded incident, or is it the most plausable theory?

Ravok · « **Reply #26 on:** April 26, 2004, 11:55:10 am »

Thats a good question!!!!

Stormbringer · « **Reply #27 on:** April 26, 2004, 12:53:29 pm »

I'd say that the "clean room" protocol was breached due to a gantry emergency repair. I think I remember something like that. Then near the end of thier mission photos of the eroded insulation were examined and what they saw was concluded after study to be most likely due to anaerobic bacteria eating the insulation. As to the LEMs I beleive they added that because the LEMs were not quarantined t o such a degree as later probes that they likely suffered the same fate.

So, parsing it literally yes it was a recorded incident and yes it was the most plausible theory as to whats eating the probe since it had no instruments to verify microbes. The evidence is all indirect.

EDIT: No critter mug shots. darn it.

Ravok · « **Reply #28 on:** April 26, 2004, 04:36:53 pm »

I was just thinking those bacteria must be taking a heck of a pounding with all the radiation there. Do you know how well the part of the probe they live in is shielded?
I wonder if they have already started to mutate to fit the new environment.
I know I'm going on and on, But this really has my mind going!!!

Stormbringer · « **Reply #29 on:** April 26, 2004, 05:08:09 pm »

Bacteria mutate a lot anyway. The radiation is not all that intense relative to open space in high earth orbit for example. It is a concern because it is higher than we have to worry about here. But DNA and other cell structures have self repair mechanisms that work pretty good so long as the organism is not instantly killed. When the self repair system is overwhelmed then you get accumulated damage which is eventually lethal. But is it lethal before the organism reproduces? Bacteria are rapid reproducers. Some bacteria have been found in nuclear reactors cooling pools not only subjected to boiling heat but intense ( very lethal) radiation. More radiation than found on Mars. Plus the bacteria on the underside o fthe probe would have pretty good shielding.

SPQR Renegade001 · « **Reply #30 on:** April 26, 2004, 05:12:07 pm »

Ravok, Google Extremophile sometime. You'd be surprised where bacteria can not only live, but thrive. The frozen tundra of Antarctica. In the standing salt water pools of The Great Salt Flats. In the deepest mines. In water so alkali that it would be caustic to you and me. In the superheated volcanic water vents 2 miles below the ocean. In the hard vacum of space. And believe it or not, inside nuclear reactors.

There's no place on this planet where we've been able to go, that bacteria haven't already set up shop.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #32 on:** April 26, 2004, 05:29:15 pm »

Perhaps some one here in medicine or biology could tell us how many generations of bacteria there have been since the landing and a bit about the mutation rate for likely anaerobic bacteria would be. Even the number that could have been created if all of them survived long enough to reproduce. Just for giggles.

Ravok · « **Reply #33 on:** April 26, 2004, 05:40:07 pm »

i would truly love to know!!!!! ANYBODY??????

Stormbringer · « **Reply #34 on:** April 26, 2004, 05:58:04 pm »

Plus if the studie of micro-fossils (In my link a few posts up) is verified independantly then there is no reason that such bugs could not be alive to this day on mars as well as they would have evolved under similar conditions present at the time on both worlds. There is already (disputed) physical evidence of such in Mars rocks. The article is analysing similar structures in earth rocks whilst claiming for them the status of evidence of early life on earth.

Ravok · « **Reply #36 on:** April 26, 2004, 06:17:51 pm »

They have detected hot spots with significant water vapor that are probably hot springs, frumorols ,or geysers. I think if any are still present. Thats where we will find them. Or perhaps living in caves.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #37 on:** April 22, 2004, 04:54:05 pm »

Mars Greenhouse

Apparently plants can grow in the mars atmospheric gases and pressure. I'm amazed.

Sirgod · « **Reply #38 on:** April 22, 2004, 05:17:40 pm »

If anything, I wonder how the gravity will affect the plants.

man Genetics itself would be Incredible on that planet given the current amosphere.

Great find storm.

Stephen

Stormbringer · « **Reply #39 on:** April 22, 2004, 05:22:23 pm »

A low gravity environs wouldn't do much to little plants so long as there is enough for them to detect which direction is up and which is down. A low G environment might have profound effects on Big plants (like trees) that are limited by gravity as to how tall they can get. There might be giants.

Sirgod · « **Reply #40 on:** April 22, 2004, 05:33:06 pm »

Where is that one type of tree that grows upside down? I seem to recall a whole forest of these guys, It seems there roots are still in the ground, But the foliage Grows towards the Earth instead of upwards towards the sun.

sorry If that's Vague.

stephen

Stormbringer · « **Reply #41 on:** April 22, 2004, 05:37:13 pm »

OK I get your meaning. Over evolutionary time scales the genetic limits for growth limit would be selected out and they would all evolve bigger. Such an effect would happen almost instantly for trees as mechanical and structural engineering principles more than genetics determines some of thier hieghts. They get too big they can't feed thier crown. They get too tall they colapse under thier own wieght or get blown over etc. the low gravity would allow them to grow taller than earth constraints would and I say that for certain trees that would result in a single genration. As thier genes are not what limits them.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #42 on:** April 22, 2004, 05:39:36 pm »

there are several that are like that. A few naturally and a few that were bred for it. Many of the "weeping" varieties of trees do this and most of those are specially bred varieties.

Sirgod · « **Reply #43 on:** April 22, 2004, 06:31:02 pm »

Good point, My friends family still has a weeping Vrity that grows Fresh Cherry's about this time of year. Still the very idea that Vegitable matter has a chance there...

Amazing. a few square thousand Miles of Green Vegitation and voila, we have a breathable atmosphere for us in a way. as Long as Nitrogen and Oxygen doesn't bleed out into space.

stephen

Stormbringer · « **Reply #44 on:** April 22, 2004, 06:37:57 pm »

In my" lets build a planet thread" someone cited 26 million or more years for oxygen bleed away from mars given it's present physical parameters. But realistically they are talking about a green house because of factors such as temperature and radiation. But yes the fact that a plant couldotherwise survive and thrive is astonishing.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #45 on:** April 24, 2004, 09:52:30 pm »

But you should see the rabbits, Ba-Da-BUMP!

Ravok · « **Reply #46 on:** April 24, 2004, 10:17:46 pm »

Thanks again for the info.

I love these posts!!

Praxis · « **Reply #47 on:** April 25, 2004, 10:41:31 am »

The problem with growing plants on mars is how cold it gets at night. It's a bit chilly by day even in the warmest parts, and at night it's well below freezing. You'd have frost every morning.

This might be good for plants like Persimmons (sp?) that ripen after frost though

Sure, a greenhouse would help keep the heat in, but there would be less heat than on earth (due to more distance from the sun) for the greenhouse to trap. Maybe plants that thrive in cold weather here would survive in a greenhouse there.

IKV Nemesis D7L · « **Reply #48 on:** April 25, 2004, 10:49:24 am »

Now to do it in Martian soil and gravity.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #49 on:** April 25, 2004, 12:33:46 pm »

Of course it would have to be heated (lol) no plant I'm aware of can survive at 125 (or more) degrees below zero. The real news here was that the atmospheric pressure and gas mixture of Mars supports earth plants without genetic modification. The soil; unless it contains toxins (and as far as I know it does not) would quickly become earthlike due to bacteria and decaying plant matter. IOW nothing more need be done than is done by hobbeist gardeners to ammend the soil. After a while the soil ammendment would probably be self sustaining as a full ecosystem develops. Gravity, so long as some is there, is not an issue. Plants mostly use gravity to determine up and down. There may be structural changes but I believe small less massive plants are less dependant on gravity as an engineering factor.

Ravok · « **Reply #50 on:** April 25, 2004, 02:55:26 pm »

This is just staggering to me, The implications for Terraforming And atmosphere production........!!! I really don't know what to say.
We need to stop killing each other get allong, and be out there where we belong!!!!.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #51 on:** April 25, 2004, 03:24:39 pm »

It could be done even now. Unfortunately the vast bulk of humanity, even in developed countries, have no drive or vision concerning this sort of thing. Until attitudes about it change we will continue to creep along at less than a snails pace. Yet perhaps the seeds of change are being sown in the form of the X prize and the nascent commercialization drive for space. will eventual move this from the realm of dreamers and visionaries to the common thoughts of the majority. When the world at large no longer views it as an empty fantasy it will happen.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #52 on:** April 25, 2004, 03:31:55 pm »

I found one of them in one of my plant catalogs. I can get the name and ordering info if you like. It is a type of Bao bob tree from Aftrica. However if it is offered in nursery catalogs then it will grow here. A tree that is not supposed to grow here like the Brazil Nut tree i'm going to see if that is true or not. It is one of the only cash crops that is collected entirely from the wild as it is not easy to cultivate. Propagation is possible however because I've seen seedlings growing in pots.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #53 on:** April 25, 2004, 03:49:37 pm »

Of course the above thought brings up the argument against keeping the colony sterile. It cannot be done if soil based gardening is done. The soil needs bacteria, molds, fungi, and even critters like worms to be ammended into true living "earth." The alternatives hydroponics and just importing bulk food are not very attractive if mars is ever to be more than a research outpost. We will have to "contaminate" the pristine environment in order to conquer it.

Ravok · « **Reply #54 on:** April 25, 2004, 04:10:27 pm »

I wonder because of them finding Martian meteors here, That the reverse has happened on Mars and contamination has already happened. Anyway does any body know if the probes sent so far have been sterile?If not it has probably happened already.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #55 on:** April 25, 2004, 09:05:46 pm »

Probes are supposed to be sterile but the viking landers were contaminated and now have bacteria happily eating thier insulation. This has been reported in releases from NASA and has resulted in the tightest clean room standards for any probes since then.

The metoer probably did not contain living organisms but rather what are disputedly called fossils. The same sort of thing could happen from earth but is not as likely as stuff coming in from the outer (relatively speaking) system due to the escape energy needed to go away from the sun rather than towards it. If the energy were applied all at once it would most certainly vaporize the would be earthling meteor heading to Mars. However it could happen incrementally by successive perturbations or gravity assists from planets or asteroids or whatever.

Bacterial spores can survive in space. Otherwise there would be none to eat the insulation of the viking probe. However it is the trip into space that such a meteor would have to take that it is unknown that microbe spores could survive.

Ravok · « **Reply #56 on:** April 25, 2004, 09:45:30 pm »

I remember reading a article about one of the probes having a problem with contamination, But i could not remember which.
Thanks again for the info i can't get enough of it.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #57 on:** April 25, 2004, 11:31:49 pm »

I'm not certain but it may also be true of the left behind portions of the LEMs as well. I dunno how they would tell. And obviously they would be anerobic.

Ravok · « **Reply #58 on:** April 25, 2004, 11:43:07 pm »

The ones on Mars eating the insulation blew me away!! I would love to see what they evolve into. In acouple of Billion years.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #59 on:** April 25, 2004, 11:49:33 pm »

If the little bugger's ever make the transition down into the soil then we can say the terraforming has already begun! Of course there *may* already be martian microbes there. If so I'd like to see what the differences in the DNA is like. A close similarity would be harder to explain as parallel evolution and would argue a common origin for both sets of DNA. Say the organic material from comets? The archea order of microbs might have been originally space farers themselves.

Ravok · « **Reply #60 on:** April 26, 2004, 02:09:10 am »

Ive thought the same if they find life in the Oceans of Europa, Personally i favor the comet theory my self.
But what the heck I'm nothing but an arm chair astronomer anyway.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #61 on:** April 26, 2004, 10:56:13 am »

Speaking of which:

microfossils and mars rocks

This article shows strong evidence for rock munching bugs from 3.5 million years ago and mentions a link (URL is in article) to possible mars or cometary origins for the critters. Rock munching bacteria are the sort which could survive in a present Mars environment. Now they are waiting for peer reviewed confirmation of thier work. Gotta love space.com.

Ravok · « **Reply #63 on:** April 26, 2004, 11:55:10 am »

Thats a good question!!!!

Stormbringer · « **Reply #64 on:** April 26, 2004, 12:53:29 pm »

I'd say that the "clean room" protocol was breached due to a gantry emergency repair. I think I remember something like that. Then near the end of thier mission photos of the eroded insulation were examined and what they saw was concluded after study to be most likely due to anaerobic bacteria eating the insulation. As to the LEMs I beleive they added that because the LEMs were not quarantined t o such a degree as later probes that they likely suffered the same fate.

So, parsing it literally yes it was a recorded incident and yes it was the most plausible theory as to whats eating the probe since it had no instruments to verify microbes. The evidence is all indirect.

EDIT: No critter mug shots. darn it.

Ravok · « **Reply #65 on:** April 26, 2004, 04:36:53 pm »

I was just thinking those bacteria must be taking a heck of a pounding with all the radiation there. Do you know how well the part of the probe they live in is shielded?
I wonder if they have already started to mutate to fit the new environment.
I know I'm going on and on, But this really has my mind going!!!

Stormbringer · « **Reply #66 on:** April 26, 2004, 05:08:09 pm »

Bacteria mutate a lot anyway. The radiation is not all that intense relative to open space in high earth orbit for example. It is a concern because it is higher than we have to worry about here. But DNA and other cell structures have self repair mechanisms that work pretty good so long as the organism is not instantly killed. When the self repair system is overwhelmed then you get accumulated damage which is eventually lethal. But is it lethal before the organism reproduces? Bacteria are rapid reproducers. Some bacteria have been found in nuclear reactors cooling pools not only subjected to boiling heat but intense ( very lethal) radiation. More radiation than found on Mars. Plus the bacteria on the underside o fthe probe would have pretty good shielding.

SPQR Renegade001 · « **Reply #67 on:** April 26, 2004, 05:12:07 pm »

Ravok, Google Extremophile sometime. You'd be surprised where bacteria can not only live, but thrive. The frozen tundra of Antarctica. In the standing salt water pools of The Great Salt Flats. In the deepest mines. In water so alkali that it would be caustic to you and me. In the superheated volcanic water vents 2 miles below the ocean. In the hard vacum of space. And believe it or not, inside nuclear reactors.

There's no place on this planet where we've been able to go, that bacteria haven't already set up shop.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #69 on:** April 26, 2004, 05:29:15 pm »

Perhaps some one here in medicine or biology could tell us how many generations of bacteria there have been since the landing and a bit about the mutation rate for likely anaerobic bacteria would be. Even the number that could have been created if all of them survived long enough to reproduce. Just for giggles.

Ravok · « **Reply #70 on:** April 26, 2004, 05:40:07 pm »

i would truly love to know!!!!! ANYBODY??????

Stormbringer · « **Reply #71 on:** April 26, 2004, 05:58:04 pm »

Plus if the studie of micro-fossils (In my link a few posts up) is verified independantly then there is no reason that such bugs could not be alive to this day on mars as well as they would have evolved under similar conditions present at the time on both worlds. There is already (disputed) physical evidence of such in Mars rocks. The article is analysing similar structures in earth rocks whilst claiming for them the status of evidence of early life on earth.

Ravok · « **Reply #73 on:** April 26, 2004, 06:17:51 pm »

They have detected hot spots with significant water vapor that are probably hot springs, frumorols ,or geysers. I think if any are still present. Thats where we will find them. Or perhaps living in caves.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #74 on:** April 22, 2004, 04:54:05 pm »

Mars Greenhouse

Apparently plants can grow in the mars atmospheric gases and pressure. I'm amazed.

Sirgod · « **Reply #75 on:** April 22, 2004, 05:17:40 pm »

If anything, I wonder how the gravity will affect the plants.

man Genetics itself would be Incredible on that planet given the current amosphere.

Great find storm.

Stephen

Stormbringer · « **Reply #76 on:** April 22, 2004, 05:22:23 pm »

A low gravity environs wouldn't do much to little plants so long as there is enough for them to detect which direction is up and which is down. A low G environment might have profound effects on Big plants (like trees) that are limited by gravity as to how tall they can get. There might be giants.

Sirgod · « **Reply #77 on:** April 22, 2004, 05:33:06 pm »

Where is that one type of tree that grows upside down? I seem to recall a whole forest of these guys, It seems there roots are still in the ground, But the foliage Grows towards the Earth instead of upwards towards the sun.

sorry If that's Vague.

stephen

Stormbringer · « **Reply #78 on:** April 22, 2004, 05:37:13 pm »

OK I get your meaning. Over evolutionary time scales the genetic limits for growth limit would be selected out and they would all evolve bigger. Such an effect would happen almost instantly for trees as mechanical and structural engineering principles more than genetics determines some of thier hieghts. They get too big they can't feed thier crown. They get too tall they colapse under thier own wieght or get blown over etc. the low gravity would allow them to grow taller than earth constraints would and I say that for certain trees that would result in a single genration. As thier genes are not what limits them.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #79 on:** April 22, 2004, 05:39:36 pm »

there are several that are like that. A few naturally and a few that were bred for it. Many of the "weeping" varieties of trees do this and most of those are specially bred varieties.

Sirgod · « **Reply #80 on:** April 22, 2004, 06:31:02 pm »

Good point, My friends family still has a weeping Vrity that grows Fresh Cherry's about this time of year. Still the very idea that Vegitable matter has a chance there...

Amazing. a few square thousand Miles of Green Vegitation and voila, we have a breathable atmosphere for us in a way. as Long as Nitrogen and Oxygen doesn't bleed out into space.

stephen

Stormbringer · « **Reply #81 on:** April 22, 2004, 06:37:57 pm »

In my" lets build a planet thread" someone cited 26 million or more years for oxygen bleed away from mars given it's present physical parameters. But realistically they are talking about a green house because of factors such as temperature and radiation. But yes the fact that a plant couldotherwise survive and thrive is astonishing.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #82 on:** April 24, 2004, 09:52:30 pm »

But you should see the rabbits, Ba-Da-BUMP!

Ravok · « **Reply #83 on:** April 24, 2004, 10:17:46 pm »

Thanks again for the info.

I love these posts!!

Praxis · « **Reply #84 on:** April 25, 2004, 10:41:31 am »

The problem with growing plants on mars is how cold it gets at night. It's a bit chilly by day even in the warmest parts, and at night it's well below freezing. You'd have frost every morning.

This might be good for plants like Persimmons (sp?) that ripen after frost though

Sure, a greenhouse would help keep the heat in, but there would be less heat than on earth (due to more distance from the sun) for the greenhouse to trap. Maybe plants that thrive in cold weather here would survive in a greenhouse there.

IKV Nemesis D7L · « **Reply #85 on:** April 25, 2004, 10:49:24 am »

Now to do it in Martian soil and gravity.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #86 on:** April 25, 2004, 12:33:46 pm »

Of course it would have to be heated (lol) no plant I'm aware of can survive at 125 (or more) degrees below zero. The real news here was that the atmospheric pressure and gas mixture of Mars supports earth plants without genetic modification. The soil; unless it contains toxins (and as far as I know it does not) would quickly become earthlike due to bacteria and decaying plant matter. IOW nothing more need be done than is done by hobbeist gardeners to ammend the soil. After a while the soil ammendment would probably be self sustaining as a full ecosystem develops. Gravity, so long as some is there, is not an issue. Plants mostly use gravity to determine up and down. There may be structural changes but I believe small less massive plants are less dependant on gravity as an engineering factor.

Ravok · « **Reply #87 on:** April 25, 2004, 02:55:26 pm »

This is just staggering to me, The implications for Terraforming And atmosphere production........!!! I really don't know what to say.
We need to stop killing each other get allong, and be out there where we belong!!!!.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #88 on:** April 25, 2004, 03:24:39 pm »

It could be done even now. Unfortunately the vast bulk of humanity, even in developed countries, have no drive or vision concerning this sort of thing. Until attitudes about it change we will continue to creep along at less than a snails pace. Yet perhaps the seeds of change are being sown in the form of the X prize and the nascent commercialization drive for space. will eventual move this from the realm of dreamers and visionaries to the common thoughts of the majority. When the world at large no longer views it as an empty fantasy it will happen.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #89 on:** April 25, 2004, 03:31:55 pm »

I found one of them in one of my plant catalogs. I can get the name and ordering info if you like. It is a type of Bao bob tree from Aftrica. However if it is offered in nursery catalogs then it will grow here. A tree that is not supposed to grow here like the Brazil Nut tree i'm going to see if that is true or not. It is one of the only cash crops that is collected entirely from the wild as it is not easy to cultivate. Propagation is possible however because I've seen seedlings growing in pots.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #90 on:** April 25, 2004, 03:49:37 pm »

Of course the above thought brings up the argument against keeping the colony sterile. It cannot be done if soil based gardening is done. The soil needs bacteria, molds, fungi, and even critters like worms to be ammended into true living "earth." The alternatives hydroponics and just importing bulk food are not very attractive if mars is ever to be more than a research outpost. We will have to "contaminate" the pristine environment in order to conquer it.

Ravok · « **Reply #91 on:** April 25, 2004, 04:10:27 pm »

I wonder because of them finding Martian meteors here, That the reverse has happened on Mars and contamination has already happened. Anyway does any body know if the probes sent so far have been sterile?If not it has probably happened already.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #92 on:** April 25, 2004, 09:05:46 pm »

Probes are supposed to be sterile but the viking landers were contaminated and now have bacteria happily eating thier insulation. This has been reported in releases from NASA and has resulted in the tightest clean room standards for any probes since then.

The metoer probably did not contain living organisms but rather what are disputedly called fossils. The same sort of thing could happen from earth but is not as likely as stuff coming in from the outer (relatively speaking) system due to the escape energy needed to go away from the sun rather than towards it. If the energy were applied all at once it would most certainly vaporize the would be earthling meteor heading to Mars. However it could happen incrementally by successive perturbations or gravity assists from planets or asteroids or whatever.

Bacterial spores can survive in space. Otherwise there would be none to eat the insulation of the viking probe. However it is the trip into space that such a meteor would have to take that it is unknown that microbe spores could survive.

Ravok · « **Reply #93 on:** April 25, 2004, 09:45:30 pm »

I remember reading a article about one of the probes having a problem with contamination, But i could not remember which.
Thanks again for the info i can't get enough of it.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #94 on:** April 25, 2004, 11:31:49 pm »

I'm not certain but it may also be true of the left behind portions of the LEMs as well. I dunno how they would tell. And obviously they would be anerobic.

Ravok · « **Reply #95 on:** April 25, 2004, 11:43:07 pm »

The ones on Mars eating the insulation blew me away!! I would love to see what they evolve into. In acouple of Billion years.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #96 on:** April 25, 2004, 11:49:33 pm »

If the little bugger's ever make the transition down into the soil then we can say the terraforming has already begun! Of course there *may* already be martian microbes there. If so I'd like to see what the differences in the DNA is like. A close similarity would be harder to explain as parallel evolution and would argue a common origin for both sets of DNA. Say the organic material from comets? The archea order of microbs might have been originally space farers themselves.

Ravok · « **Reply #97 on:** April 26, 2004, 02:09:10 am »

Ive thought the same if they find life in the Oceans of Europa, Personally i favor the comet theory my self.
But what the heck I'm nothing but an arm chair astronomer anyway.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #98 on:** April 26, 2004, 10:56:13 am »

Speaking of which:

microfossils and mars rocks

This article shows strong evidence for rock munching bugs from 3.5 million years ago and mentions a link (URL is in article) to possible mars or cometary origins for the critters. Rock munching bacteria are the sort which could survive in a present Mars environment. Now they are waiting for peer reviewed confirmation of thier work. Gotta love space.com.

Ravok · « **Reply #100 on:** April 26, 2004, 11:55:10 am »

Thats a good question!!!!

Stormbringer · « **Reply #101 on:** April 26, 2004, 12:53:29 pm »

I'd say that the "clean room" protocol was breached due to a gantry emergency repair. I think I remember something like that. Then near the end of thier mission photos of the eroded insulation were examined and what they saw was concluded after study to be most likely due to anaerobic bacteria eating the insulation. As to the LEMs I beleive they added that because the LEMs were not quarantined t o such a degree as later probes that they likely suffered the same fate.

So, parsing it literally yes it was a recorded incident and yes it was the most plausible theory as to whats eating the probe since it had no instruments to verify microbes. The evidence is all indirect.

EDIT: No critter mug shots. darn it.

Ravok · « **Reply #102 on:** April 26, 2004, 04:36:53 pm »

I was just thinking those bacteria must be taking a heck of a pounding with all the radiation there. Do you know how well the part of the probe they live in is shielded?
I wonder if they have already started to mutate to fit the new environment.
I know I'm going on and on, But this really has my mind going!!!

Stormbringer · « **Reply #103 on:** April 26, 2004, 05:08:09 pm »

Bacteria mutate a lot anyway. The radiation is not all that intense relative to open space in high earth orbit for example. It is a concern because it is higher than we have to worry about here. But DNA and other cell structures have self repair mechanisms that work pretty good so long as the organism is not instantly killed. When the self repair system is overwhelmed then you get accumulated damage which is eventually lethal. But is it lethal before the organism reproduces? Bacteria are rapid reproducers. Some bacteria have been found in nuclear reactors cooling pools not only subjected to boiling heat but intense ( very lethal) radiation. More radiation than found on Mars. Plus the bacteria on the underside o fthe probe would have pretty good shielding.

SPQR Renegade001 · « **Reply #104 on:** April 26, 2004, 05:12:07 pm »

Ravok, Google Extremophile sometime. You'd be surprised where bacteria can not only live, but thrive. The frozen tundra of Antarctica. In the standing salt water pools of The Great Salt Flats. In the deepest mines. In water so alkali that it would be caustic to you and me. In the superheated volcanic water vents 2 miles below the ocean. In the hard vacum of space. And believe it or not, inside nuclear reactors.

There's no place on this planet where we've been able to go, that bacteria haven't already set up shop.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #106 on:** April 26, 2004, 05:29:15 pm »

Perhaps some one here in medicine or biology could tell us how many generations of bacteria there have been since the landing and a bit about the mutation rate for likely anaerobic bacteria would be. Even the number that could have been created if all of them survived long enough to reproduce. Just for giggles.

Ravok · « **Reply #107 on:** April 26, 2004, 05:40:07 pm »

i would truly love to know!!!!! ANYBODY??????

Stormbringer · « **Reply #108 on:** April 26, 2004, 05:58:04 pm »

Plus if the studie of micro-fossils (In my link a few posts up) is verified independantly then there is no reason that such bugs could not be alive to this day on mars as well as they would have evolved under similar conditions present at the time on both worlds. There is already (disputed) physical evidence of such in Mars rocks. The article is analysing similar structures in earth rocks whilst claiming for them the status of evidence of early life on earth.

Ravok · « **Reply #110 on:** April 26, 2004, 06:17:51 pm »

They have detected hot spots with significant water vapor that are probably hot springs, frumorols ,or geysers. I think if any are still present. Thats where we will find them. Or perhaps living in caves.

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Topic: Growing Lettuce on Mars (Read 11400 times)