Topic: Uber cloak (Read 8967 times)

RAGE Cyberbeer · « **on:** February 27, 2003, 11:15:34 pm »

While I applaud Taldrens efforts with the Beta patch I am left with a slightly sour taste in my mouth. I have played 10 games against cloaking vessels....I've lost each one of them. Now I am sure the arguement will come up that my skill is in question not how the cloak works.

Anti cloak is useless....with a 15% chance of detecting a cloaked ship.....I won't even begin to calculate the odds of my ship detecting the cloaker right behind me. Furthermore, with the increased power and accuracy of the plasma torps, and dissies...by the time I find them its over for me. One hit from a loaded out Warbird or the next class down can render my Neb/Galaxy or even Sov virtually useless. Dead officers are laying across the deck...my warp core or sensors are in the red or offline.

Cloak now also, fades in and out much faster. So the chances of me targeting a ship decloaking, turning my ship to bear enough weapons is slim to none. Not to mention you still have to double click a ship decloaking...or hunt for the "y" button.

I do not expect a perfectly balanced game, however I would like a chance....Borg have it the worst I fear. Once their armor is gone its over. Imagine a quick gun and run on a borg sphere prime.

"Well beer why dont you tractor them???" Pressing the warp button right before being tractored negates the tractor, they take off and cloak. I've got Romulans telling me the patch went to far...now that is saying something.

Perhaps I should play a cloaked ship, and we could sit at opposite corners of the map hiding from one another. This is the exact reason Invisible cloak was never used in SFC1 or 2/OP.

DONOTDELETE · « **Reply #1 on:** February 27, 2003, 11:31:25 pm »

Quote:

Anti cloak is useless....with a 15% chance of detecting a cloaked ship.....I won't even begin to calculate the odds of my ship detecting the cloaker right behind me.

I was waiting for this....
Another "Magic Photons"-like thread???

At the risk of helping you Non-Roms out there......

If you give me the time to get that close to you, you deserve a plasma enema

Let me put it this way.
Any enemy ship with low speed, low manuverability, and mostly front-facing weapons makes this Romulan grin an evil grin...

Note the big drop in plasma accuracy and power with range. If I shoot my wad and miss, it's your turn to be the hunter.

There are even better ways to harass a Rom or Klink trying to cloak and evade after a strike, but I've "helped" enough already. Perhaps you should try Rom for a while. You will quickly discover the weaknesses when in the other guy's shoes.

Pestalence · « **Reply #2 on:** February 27, 2003, 11:59:08 pm »

The 15% applies only to probes.. not Anti-Cloaking scans...

Anti-Cloaking scans depend on several factors.. Ops Officer skill level, speed of enemy ship, size of enemy ship, range of enemy ship..

easy way to beat cloak.. fire 1 weapon at a time and turn your ship fast enough to pop off 1 shot at a time just as they disappear totally.. the 1 shot when it hits will keep them from cloaking totally and at the same time, keeps cloaker from firing until they uncloak... add to that the standard scan and anti-cloaking scan (regular scan for a sight bump in targeting), it is about a 50/50 match-up against Klinks and Roms.... plus the ocassional use of Probes... as your ops officer skill increases, so does your chance of detection with probes....

also when enemy ship uncloaks.. hit the Y key or space bar to target and fire on them before their shields go up... H&R their heavies if you can.. and warp a bit away.. then move back in....

using strategy is a side effect of playing SFC 3 now against cloak

shadow-viper · « **Reply #3 on:** February 28, 2003, 12:26:13 am »

I new it would happen I was just wateing for this post. the none cloaking
races have been kicking us klings and rom buts all over D3 becase of us haveing a bad cloaking device.
Now they fix it and you start crying.We have delt with it for 3 months now,now its your turn.
(Hay kling/rom non-cloaking rule say you must drop your shelds and stand in one place so I can run around you and
shoot you and kill you, oh and sence I can not cloak you cant use your un-less I can see you or detecet you. so be
a good little klingon/rom and die like the rule say.)

YA RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!

Tulmahk · « **Reply #4 on:** February 28, 2003, 01:32:48 am »

Imagine that, a cloak that actually HIDES A SHIP. What has the world come to?

Please bring back Shade and Die®, before I'm forced to actually use tactics rather than bugs!

What does SFBM have to say about cloaking?

"G13.61 The counter representing the ship is removed from the board, with the ship's position recorded secretly by the owning player."

RAGE Cyberbeer · « **Reply #5 on:** February 28, 2003, 01:41:54 am »

I have nothing against invisible cloak...what I mean is that its very hard to balance it. Either you make it detectable 25% like it was before (Roms cry and Klinks) or you keep it at 15%. Then no one but Roms are unhappy. You can not attack me because a bug was coded into your precious cloaking device. That was not my fault...so keep the personal attacks out of this.

As a SFC1-2/OP veteran I think I know plenty about tactics. I will entertain any games offered to me...I dont think my tactics are in question.

I just got finished playing a very experienced Fed pilot with a Raptor class ship. All I did was cloak sneak up to the side shields decloak and fire. I took 10 internals that game...he died in 5 minutes. It was more like taking candy from a baby then using tactics. The only tactic I used was sneaking up port or starboard.

Now as I stated before I do not expect nor want Roms to be nuetered, I am only asking for some balance. Why not compromise and make detection rate 20%...oh and by the way Anti cloak sensors hardly ever detect....

I can also agree that Feds were made uber in the beginning but that is no reason to punish them now. This is like the classic SFC2 posts...anytime a Fed cries out in desperation for balance they are labeled as unskilled 'dumb feds'. When ANY other race cries for add ons or more balance in their favor everyone jumps on board...even some hard core feds. I present my argument with logic you present yours with slams and insults.

This post is not meant to be a flaming session, if this is what it will turn into then do not post here. Fight logic with logic not with rediculous insults.

kevlar · « **Reply #6 on:** February 28, 2003, 01:52:50 am »

i also expected something like this...

For the record the cloak isn't IMHO UBER.

Like previously said the 15% chance to detect cloaked ships is for probes only. The anti cloak active sensors are more or less the same.

Maybe the plasma torps are now a bit too strong and a single volley from 3 overloaded medium plasma torps can take your shields and armor and still make considerable hull damage, but the cloak itself isn't in any aspect uber. In fact, it is exactly what I expect from a cloak. In the movies/tV shows you don't exactly see Kirk or Picard saying "make a anti cloak san, fire a prob..here he is ...fire photons/q-torps away .. muahahaha... another cloaked under my belt". If a player is going to loose his shields and weapon power by cloaking, risking to loose almost half is hull if he is detected, he should get some advantage out of it.

In any case I haven't yet seen any complaint about the Klingon cloak being uber. And since the klink and rom cloaks are equal, the problem is the plama torps. Nevertheless, even those almost uber overloaded plasma torps can be fought with AV, speed and good turning radius.

RAGE Cyberbeer · « **Reply #7 on:** February 28, 2003, 01:59:27 am »

I just ran a test in a game. A fed Sov with computer 5, against my Raptor with cloak 5. He got within range 0 of me and turned anti cloak on. I cloaked. The 'you must engage within the next turn' came up 5 times without him detecting me!!!!!! I believe that is 50 turns. If a game last 50 turns then something is wrong. 50 turns!!!!! I will run the same test again 2morrow but over 100 turns and see how many times I get detected.

By stasticis I should be detected 15 times if Anti cloak works at 15% as well. Keep in mind the above test was done firing no probes.

Alexander1701 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 28, 2003, 02:04:39 am »

I don't know if this was just the server I was on, but traveling in a shrike with a level 5 cloak at 1/4 impulse, I found cloak only slightly less detectable than before. The only difference is that now the computer players ping too...

Try using the new Uber Shuttles to attack the Uber Cloak, and then maybe some tactics as described above. From what I can see, its mainly the Romulans, not the klingons, advancing, so I think its just the balance of skill coming into effect. The difficulty of playing a less good race drove out most of the less good Romulans, and forced the rest of us to think up killer tactics. Its just coming back, and will force the reverse effect, until the balance of players is restored.

Try the cloaking against a real, human opponent. Its not terrifically effective except against people who have uber overloaded their front arc at the expense of the other three.

Alexander

kevlar · « **Reply #9 on:** February 28, 2003, 02:13:42 am »

first, the computer isn't good enough to test those things. You even said that he didn't fired a single prob. For example , if you see your shadow passing trought my shields you can be sure that I will directly prob your ship and have a good chance of detect him.
Second there is probably a problem with HET's ( check my post named " probable HET bug"). And HET's are one of best ways to alpha strike a phasing enemy.

Third next time use a BORG with a computer 5 in test with the AI. Even then it will not be a solid test.

Fourth, and last, if you have a cloak 5, maintain low speed and some distance to the target, I expect the cloaked ship to not be detected. The cloak simulates the submerging ability of a submarine. If a sub is running at silent speed ( lets say 5 knots), at some depth and some distance, and you don't know that he is there ( thus not sending helicopters), it is very hard to detect such submarine. Maybe, and i say maybe, the effect of speed over cloak should be reforced. Warp jumps are, so why not high speeds?

RAGE Cyberbeer · « **Reply #10 on:** February 28, 2003, 02:14:37 am »

Alexander why dont we play one...
You be the Rom or Klink one game...I'll be the 'dumb fed'
The next game I will be the Rom you can be the fed...lets see the outcome. It will obviously be in your favor considering how great you are at this game.

EagleEye · « **Reply #11 on:** February 28, 2003, 02:51:57 am »

Well, there's a differance here.

Federation supremecy in SFC2, came only in numbers. The races that had the "Uber" advantage where the Mirak, and Hydran (50 drone type 4F volleys....Ouch.) And dont forget the 12 hellbore fighter fleets. That just sucked.

Now, looking to SFC3... (In a very generalized way)
Feds have more ships, and a smother transition between ship clases,
Feds have better heavy weapons all around,
Feds have better power output/generation ratio's,
Feds have better primary weapons all around,
Oh-ya...
And feds still have the advantage in numbers.

The reason people look down on feds alot is because most feds are nOObs. There are alot of veteran fderation players out there, but for the most part. nOObs. So it stands to reason that the nOObs dont want to loose the advantages that keep them alive against veteran players. This is why I feel some suggestions or comments made by some federation players are dismissed as "Whining"

Let me just get to the point. When I first played an evil dave mission in SFC2, it seemed absolutley impossible. It could not be done. But sooner or later I figured out how to do it. Then I figured out how to do it without taking internals. Then I figured out how to do it really FAST.

All in all, the challange was fun, and it made me a better player. It made me think of things I never would have thought of before tacticaly.

So, stop talking, and start thinking. For every move there is a counter move.

SirWilliam · « **Reply #12 on:** February 28, 2003, 04:11:07 am »

Cyberbeer:

I would never question another player's skill without having played them; indeed I would never publicly berate an honorable player's ability. I am quite sure that you are an honorable and a skillful player, who like the rest of us, hopes this game can eventually be made balanced technically, with only individuals' methods of play to determine the victor.

I would humbly submit that ten games, or even twenty, is insufficient to formulate a completely new strategy, especially against human opponents using a newly-viable and very effective cloak. After all the game has been fundamentally altered by the cloak actually functioning as intended.

Especially for the Romulans, the balancing factor against the cloak is the very slow recharge time of their main weapons, the plasma torpedoes. It is just a matter of being able to combine selective firing of weapons in given arcs with maneuvering, speed adjustment, and use of mines dropped in areas the cloaker is probably near. This takes a lot of time to figure out and we haven't even had the patch for a week yet. Ten games certainly isn't going to allow enough time to re-learn three months plus of anti-cloak strategy for a suddenly un-tilted playing field. I have played probably ten hours since the patch was released, and I haven't even definitively figured out the new "sweet spot" for turning radius, much less learned a whole new approach to dealing with cloakers.

IMHO, give it some more time and I think many of us non-Romulan players will learn how to defeat the cloaking device or at least maintain an even fighting pace against them.

Look at it this way: this may be the long-sought after remedy for the "lack of tactical depth" in missions complained of by so many players. The game was not balanced before and I think many of us non-Romulans got used to that, even if we didn't exploit the bugs against honorable Rommies who fought with no viable cloak and horribly slow weapons.

I may be wrong, I haven't played enough since the patch to dismiss your opinion out of hand, so don't take it that way.

I do think that we should all reserve judgment for at least another week or so, to give time to formulate new anti-cloak strategies. (Am I starting to sound like Jacques Chirac? Sacre bleu, I hope not.)

SW

Credo Narth · « **Reply #14 on:** February 28, 2003, 05:00:35 am »

I play Fed most of the time, but I certainly wouldn't rate the Rommies as having uber cloaks. Detecting cloak 5's isn't all that hard, you just can't keep the lock-on for as long.

I reckon the Romulans are about right as they now are. They always were dreaded as a race in Star Trek, Canon Land, and if SFC3 is supposed to be as close to Canon as SBF gets, then the ROmulans should certainly be pretty fearsome.

The only problem with the Roms is the Hawk. It still looks like a big green London bus with gammy wings sticking out the side...

762 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 28, 2003, 08:37:20 am »

I haven't tried the patch yet, but one thing I've learned playing against Roms is that rear-firing heavy weapons are a must. If all your heavies hace forward you've got the impossible task of turning 180 degrees to try to hit him. If you've got rear heavies he will seek to engage you from the side, and you can turn away and hit him before he cloaks / warps out.

Koloth · « **Reply #16 on:** February 28, 2003, 08:50:20 am »

It is too early to make an statement like 'uber cloak'. How many games have been played? 1, 10, 100, 1000? To say something is uber means that in every situation it has an advantage. Until I have seen evidence that shows cloaking ships have all advantages and no disadvantages, then I am going to disagree with your assessment and fart in your general direction

TheBigCheese · « **Reply #17 on:** February 28, 2003, 10:44:38 am »

Dont seem to be hearing any complaints from Borg players?

RAGE Cyberbeer · « **Reply #18 on:** February 28, 2003, 10:52:08 am »

Well thanks for the fart...and other suggestions. What server does Alexander play on, as I play on GSA mostly...

I also noticed while playing as a Romulan I fired one heavy plasma and it fired out 3 torps....do Romulans now have volly? If this is true why did they take it away from Feds?

CynicForever · « **Reply #19 on:** February 28, 2003, 12:06:07 pm »

I have played all 4 races extensively online. In each race, I have gotten up to their most powerful dreadnought (got bored with the borg before I got a cube). I think alot of the complaints are coming from Fed players, and there is a reason. Its not that the cloak is now unbeatable, that just adds to the problem really. The fact is, the feds are slightly underbalanced.

Feds have the strongest shields, right? Ya, they can usually take 1 or 2 extra shots.
Feds armor is second strongest. Again, fed armor can take 1 to 2 extra shots.
In exchange, we give up maneuverablility, speed, stealth, and power.
Some people say that feds have better power output. That's true when a fed ship is underloaded. Shields and heavy weapons suck up that power. Consider, a photon takes 8 power, deals out about 9 damage. K-Photon takes 6 power, deals out 6 damage, and takes half the time to reload. But Feds have the "mighty" quantum. 13 damage, 10 power. Polaron does 12 damage, 9 power, and recharges slightly faster than the quantum. Ahh, but the quantum has burst fire, that now happens alot less. While the polaron's shield bypass seems unaffected. Oh, but we have the pulse phaser. Wich was almost useless before the patch. Now it's completely useless. Phasers are generally the same as Klingon disrupters.

So, whats the advantages of playing Fed? The ability to absorb 4 to 5 extra shots, if your lucky. 180 degree primary weapon mount, wich does generally give us an edge in the light cruiser to heavy cruiser department, but wich is lost in the battlecruiser and dreadnought, and doesn't exist in the frigate and destroyer. Disadvantages? Lack of weapon variety, power consumption vs. power generation, power to damage ratios, speed, agility, stealth.

Now, the Romulans have been brought up to par. Before, it was the Klingons who had the edge because of superior power to damage ratios, and reload rates. Hasn't been long enough to see if the Romulans will be contenders, but I know this, the Feds weren't to begin with.

Of course, many of you will say I'm just a whiney Fed. Maybe I am. But I've played all 4 races many times. I've learned how to fight as each competently, if not mastering them. Before the patch, I would say the best ships were Klingon, Borg(not counting the cube), Fed, and Romulan. With the patch, I'll have to play as all 4 races again to find out how things stand, but I don't see the Fed climbing the ladder.

RHC-Star Dagger · « **Reply #21 on:** February 28, 2003, 12:44:04 pm »

Greetings,

Posts like this just warm my heart. Play 500 or so games with the Betas and you will realize that what you say isnt true

And if it is, oh well, the Rihannsu are supposed to be the Superior race in St anyway.

Seeing you (right in front of me),
RHC-Star Dagger

RAGE Cyberbeer · « **Reply #24 on:** February 28, 2003, 02:00:36 pm »

Agreed, very nice post. Finally a brave soul posts the truth...not propaganda :P

Alexander1701 · « **Reply #25 on:** March 01, 2003, 03:07:45 am »

Okay two things

One: I never said all fed players were bad, just that all the bad players were scared away from Romulus. Thus, we have less players, but when you DO encounter one of us, it won't be a bad player.

Two: Examine. Each race has one of two things. Either they have the cloaking device, or a secondary dreadnought (BB for borg, but they need that for lack of shields). The fact is that you NEED intense cloaking action to beat a sovereign in a warbird. Its a matter of balance, and its why the Federation HAS the sovereign, and why we will never see the Arai Warbird.

On a pre-beta server, the Romulans and Federation players once signed an unofficial cease fire. Romulan AI lost nearly half our space to Federation AI before the Federation ambushed us and ended the treaty. There was a serious problem pre-patch. If it IS an issue, I would recommend that a server head sets the game to run without human players, and see what happens. I'm willing to bet money that the Romulans won't wipe out the federation.

Alexander

The_Joker · « **Reply #26 on:** March 01, 2003, 04:04:21 am »

This game is made for D3. Not gamespy. Has been from the start.

RAGE Cyberbeer · « **Reply #28 on:** February 27, 2003, 11:15:34 pm »

While I applaud Taldrens efforts with the Beta patch I am left with a slightly sour taste in my mouth. I have played 10 games against cloaking vessels....I've lost each one of them. Now I am sure the arguement will come up that my skill is in question not how the cloak works.

Anti cloak is useless....with a 15% chance of detecting a cloaked ship.....I won't even begin to calculate the odds of my ship detecting the cloaker right behind me. Furthermore, with the increased power and accuracy of the plasma torps, and dissies...by the time I find them its over for me. One hit from a loaded out Warbird or the next class down can render my Neb/Galaxy or even Sov virtually useless. Dead officers are laying across the deck...my warp core or sensors are in the red or offline.

Cloak now also, fades in and out much faster. So the chances of me targeting a ship decloaking, turning my ship to bear enough weapons is slim to none. Not to mention you still have to double click a ship decloaking...or hunt for the "y" button.

I do not expect a perfectly balanced game, however I would like a chance....Borg have it the worst I fear. Once their armor is gone its over. Imagine a quick gun and run on a borg sphere prime.

"Well beer why dont you tractor them???" Pressing the warp button right before being tractored negates the tractor, they take off and cloak. I've got Romulans telling me the patch went to far...now that is saying something.

Perhaps I should play a cloaked ship, and we could sit at opposite corners of the map hiding from one another. This is the exact reason Invisible cloak was never used in SFC1 or 2/OP.

Pestalence · « **Reply #30 on:** February 27, 2003, 11:59:08 pm »

The 15% applies only to probes.. not Anti-Cloaking scans...

Anti-Cloaking scans depend on several factors.. Ops Officer skill level, speed of enemy ship, size of enemy ship, range of enemy ship..

easy way to beat cloak.. fire 1 weapon at a time and turn your ship fast enough to pop off 1 shot at a time just as they disappear totally.. the 1 shot when it hits will keep them from cloaking totally and at the same time, keeps cloaker from firing until they uncloak... add to that the standard scan and anti-cloaking scan (regular scan for a sight bump in targeting), it is about a 50/50 match-up against Klinks and Roms.... plus the ocassional use of Probes... as your ops officer skill increases, so does your chance of detection with probes....

also when enemy ship uncloaks.. hit the Y key or space bar to target and fire on them before their shields go up... H&R their heavies if you can.. and warp a bit away.. then move back in....

using strategy is a side effect of playing SFC 3 now against cloak

shadow-viper · « **Reply #31 on:** February 28, 2003, 12:26:13 am »

I new it would happen I was just wateing for this post. the none cloaking
races have been kicking us klings and rom buts all over D3 becase of us haveing a bad cloaking device.
Now they fix it and you start crying.We have delt with it for 3 months now,now its your turn.
(Hay kling/rom non-cloaking rule say you must drop your shelds and stand in one place so I can run around you and
shoot you and kill you, oh and sence I can not cloak you cant use your un-less I can see you or detecet you. so be
a good little klingon/rom and die like the rule say.)

YA RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!

Tulmahk · « **Reply #32 on:** February 28, 2003, 01:32:48 am »

Imagine that, a cloak that actually HIDES A SHIP. What has the world come to?

Please bring back Shade and Die®, before I'm forced to actually use tactics rather than bugs!

What does SFBM have to say about cloaking?

"G13.61 The counter representing the ship is removed from the board, with the ship's position recorded secretly by the owning player."

RAGE Cyberbeer · « **Reply #33 on:** February 28, 2003, 01:41:54 am »

I have nothing against invisible cloak...what I mean is that its very hard to balance it. Either you make it detectable 25% like it was before (Roms cry and Klinks) or you keep it at 15%. Then no one but Roms are unhappy. You can not attack me because a bug was coded into your precious cloaking device. That was not my fault...so keep the personal attacks out of this.

As a SFC1-2/OP veteran I think I know plenty about tactics. I will entertain any games offered to me...I dont think my tactics are in question.

I just got finished playing a very experienced Fed pilot with a Raptor class ship. All I did was cloak sneak up to the side shields decloak and fire. I took 10 internals that game...he died in 5 minutes. It was more like taking candy from a baby then using tactics. The only tactic I used was sneaking up port or starboard.

Now as I stated before I do not expect nor want Roms to be nuetered, I am only asking for some balance. Why not compromise and make detection rate 20%...oh and by the way Anti cloak sensors hardly ever detect....

I can also agree that Feds were made uber in the beginning but that is no reason to punish them now. This is like the classic SFC2 posts...anytime a Fed cries out in desperation for balance they are labeled as unskilled 'dumb feds'. When ANY other race cries for add ons or more balance in their favor everyone jumps on board...even some hard core feds. I present my argument with logic you present yours with slams and insults.

This post is not meant to be a flaming session, if this is what it will turn into then do not post here. Fight logic with logic not with rediculous insults.

kevlar · « **Reply #34 on:** February 28, 2003, 01:52:50 am »

i also expected something like this...

For the record the cloak isn't IMHO UBER.

Like previously said the 15% chance to detect cloaked ships is for probes only. The anti cloak active sensors are more or less the same.

Maybe the plasma torps are now a bit too strong and a single volley from 3 overloaded medium plasma torps can take your shields and armor and still make considerable hull damage, but the cloak itself isn't in any aspect uber. In fact, it is exactly what I expect from a cloak. In the movies/tV shows you don't exactly see Kirk or Picard saying "make a anti cloak san, fire a prob..here he is ...fire photons/q-torps away .. muahahaha... another cloaked under my belt". If a player is going to loose his shields and weapon power by cloaking, risking to loose almost half is hull if he is detected, he should get some advantage out of it.

In any case I haven't yet seen any complaint about the Klingon cloak being uber. And since the klink and rom cloaks are equal, the problem is the plama torps. Nevertheless, even those almost uber overloaded plasma torps can be fought with AV, speed and good turning radius.

RAGE Cyberbeer · « **Reply #35 on:** February 28, 2003, 01:59:27 am »

I just ran a test in a game. A fed Sov with computer 5, against my Raptor with cloak 5. He got within range 0 of me and turned anti cloak on. I cloaked. The 'you must engage within the next turn' came up 5 times without him detecting me!!!!!! I believe that is 50 turns. If a game last 50 turns then something is wrong. 50 turns!!!!! I will run the same test again 2morrow but over 100 turns and see how many times I get detected.

By stasticis I should be detected 15 times if Anti cloak works at 15% as well. Keep in mind the above test was done firing no probes.

Alexander1701 · « **Reply #36 on:** February 28, 2003, 02:04:39 am »

I don't know if this was just the server I was on, but traveling in a shrike with a level 5 cloak at 1/4 impulse, I found cloak only slightly less detectable than before. The only difference is that now the computer players ping too...

Try using the new Uber Shuttles to attack the Uber Cloak, and then maybe some tactics as described above. From what I can see, its mainly the Romulans, not the klingons, advancing, so I think its just the balance of skill coming into effect. The difficulty of playing a less good race drove out most of the less good Romulans, and forced the rest of us to think up killer tactics. Its just coming back, and will force the reverse effect, until the balance of players is restored.

Try the cloaking against a real, human opponent. Its not terrifically effective except against people who have uber overloaded their front arc at the expense of the other three.

Alexander

kevlar · « **Reply #37 on:** February 28, 2003, 02:13:42 am »

first, the computer isn't good enough to test those things. You even said that he didn't fired a single prob. For example , if you see your shadow passing trought my shields you can be sure that I will directly prob your ship and have a good chance of detect him.
Second there is probably a problem with HET's ( check my post named " probable HET bug"). And HET's are one of best ways to alpha strike a phasing enemy.

Third next time use a BORG with a computer 5 in test with the AI. Even then it will not be a solid test.

Fourth, and last, if you have a cloak 5, maintain low speed and some distance to the target, I expect the cloaked ship to not be detected. The cloak simulates the submerging ability of a submarine. If a sub is running at silent speed ( lets say 5 knots), at some depth and some distance, and you don't know that he is there ( thus not sending helicopters), it is very hard to detect such submarine. Maybe, and i say maybe, the effect of speed over cloak should be reforced. Warp jumps are, so why not high speeds?

RAGE Cyberbeer · « **Reply #38 on:** February 28, 2003, 02:14:37 am »

Alexander why dont we play one...
You be the Rom or Klink one game...I'll be the 'dumb fed'
The next game I will be the Rom you can be the fed...lets see the outcome. It will obviously be in your favor considering how great you are at this game.

EagleEye · « **Reply #39 on:** February 28, 2003, 02:51:57 am »

Well, there's a differance here.

Federation supremecy in SFC2, came only in numbers. The races that had the "Uber" advantage where the Mirak, and Hydran (50 drone type 4F volleys....Ouch.) And dont forget the 12 hellbore fighter fleets. That just sucked.

Now, looking to SFC3... (In a very generalized way)
Feds have more ships, and a smother transition between ship clases,
Feds have better heavy weapons all around,
Feds have better power output/generation ratio's,
Feds have better primary weapons all around,
Oh-ya...
And feds still have the advantage in numbers.

The reason people look down on feds alot is because most feds are nOObs. There are alot of veteran fderation players out there, but for the most part. nOObs. So it stands to reason that the nOObs dont want to loose the advantages that keep them alive against veteran players. This is why I feel some suggestions or comments made by some federation players are dismissed as "Whining"

Let me just get to the point. When I first played an evil dave mission in SFC2, it seemed absolutley impossible. It could not be done. But sooner or later I figured out how to do it. Then I figured out how to do it without taking internals. Then I figured out how to do it really FAST.

All in all, the challange was fun, and it made me a better player. It made me think of things I never would have thought of before tacticaly.

So, stop talking, and start thinking. For every move there is a counter move.

SirWilliam · « **Reply #40 on:** February 28, 2003, 04:11:07 am »

Cyberbeer:

I would never question another player's skill without having played them; indeed I would never publicly berate an honorable player's ability. I am quite sure that you are an honorable and a skillful player, who like the rest of us, hopes this game can eventually be made balanced technically, with only individuals' methods of play to determine the victor.

I would humbly submit that ten games, or even twenty, is insufficient to formulate a completely new strategy, especially against human opponents using a newly-viable and very effective cloak. After all the game has been fundamentally altered by the cloak actually functioning as intended.

Especially for the Romulans, the balancing factor against the cloak is the very slow recharge time of their main weapons, the plasma torpedoes. It is just a matter of being able to combine selective firing of weapons in given arcs with maneuvering, speed adjustment, and use of mines dropped in areas the cloaker is probably near. This takes a lot of time to figure out and we haven't even had the patch for a week yet. Ten games certainly isn't going to allow enough time to re-learn three months plus of anti-cloak strategy for a suddenly un-tilted playing field. I have played probably ten hours since the patch was released, and I haven't even definitively figured out the new "sweet spot" for turning radius, much less learned a whole new approach to dealing with cloakers.

IMHO, give it some more time and I think many of us non-Romulan players will learn how to defeat the cloaking device or at least maintain an even fighting pace against them.

Look at it this way: this may be the long-sought after remedy for the "lack of tactical depth" in missions complained of by so many players. The game was not balanced before and I think many of us non-Romulans got used to that, even if we didn't exploit the bugs against honorable Rommies who fought with no viable cloak and horribly slow weapons.

I may be wrong, I haven't played enough since the patch to dismiss your opinion out of hand, so don't take it that way.

I do think that we should all reserve judgment for at least another week or so, to give time to formulate new anti-cloak strategies. (Am I starting to sound like Jacques Chirac? Sacre bleu, I hope not.)

SW

Credo Narth · « **Reply #42 on:** February 28, 2003, 05:00:35 am »

I play Fed most of the time, but I certainly wouldn't rate the Rommies as having uber cloaks. Detecting cloak 5's isn't all that hard, you just can't keep the lock-on for as long.

I reckon the Romulans are about right as they now are. They always were dreaded as a race in Star Trek, Canon Land, and if SFC3 is supposed to be as close to Canon as SBF gets, then the ROmulans should certainly be pretty fearsome.

The only problem with the Roms is the Hawk. It still looks like a big green London bus with gammy wings sticking out the side...

762 · « **Reply #43 on:** February 28, 2003, 08:37:20 am »

I haven't tried the patch yet, but one thing I've learned playing against Roms is that rear-firing heavy weapons are a must. If all your heavies hace forward you've got the impossible task of turning 180 degrees to try to hit him. If you've got rear heavies he will seek to engage you from the side, and you can turn away and hit him before he cloaks / warps out.

Koloth · « **Reply #44 on:** February 28, 2003, 08:50:20 am »

It is too early to make an statement like 'uber cloak'. How many games have been played? 1, 10, 100, 1000? To say something is uber means that in every situation it has an advantage. Until I have seen evidence that shows cloaking ships have all advantages and no disadvantages, then I am going to disagree with your assessment and fart in your general direction

TheBigCheese · « **Reply #45 on:** February 28, 2003, 10:44:38 am »

Dont seem to be hearing any complaints from Borg players?

RAGE Cyberbeer · « **Reply #46 on:** February 28, 2003, 10:52:08 am »

Well thanks for the fart...and other suggestions. What server does Alexander play on, as I play on GSA mostly...

I also noticed while playing as a Romulan I fired one heavy plasma and it fired out 3 torps....do Romulans now have volly? If this is true why did they take it away from Feds?

CynicForever · « **Reply #47 on:** February 28, 2003, 12:06:07 pm »

I have played all 4 races extensively online. In each race, I have gotten up to their most powerful dreadnought (got bored with the borg before I got a cube). I think alot of the complaints are coming from Fed players, and there is a reason. Its not that the cloak is now unbeatable, that just adds to the problem really. The fact is, the feds are slightly underbalanced.

Feds have the strongest shields, right? Ya, they can usually take 1 or 2 extra shots.
Feds armor is second strongest. Again, fed armor can take 1 to 2 extra shots.
In exchange, we give up maneuverablility, speed, stealth, and power.
Some people say that feds have better power output. That's true when a fed ship is underloaded. Shields and heavy weapons suck up that power. Consider, a photon takes 8 power, deals out about 9 damage. K-Photon takes 6 power, deals out 6 damage, and takes half the time to reload. But Feds have the "mighty" quantum. 13 damage, 10 power. Polaron does 12 damage, 9 power, and recharges slightly faster than the quantum. Ahh, but the quantum has burst fire, that now happens alot less. While the polaron's shield bypass seems unaffected. Oh, but we have the pulse phaser. Wich was almost useless before the patch. Now it's completely useless. Phasers are generally the same as Klingon disrupters.

So, whats the advantages of playing Fed? The ability to absorb 4 to 5 extra shots, if your lucky. 180 degree primary weapon mount, wich does generally give us an edge in the light cruiser to heavy cruiser department, but wich is lost in the battlecruiser and dreadnought, and doesn't exist in the frigate and destroyer. Disadvantages? Lack of weapon variety, power consumption vs. power generation, power to damage ratios, speed, agility, stealth.

Now, the Romulans have been brought up to par. Before, it was the Klingons who had the edge because of superior power to damage ratios, and reload rates. Hasn't been long enough to see if the Romulans will be contenders, but I know this, the Feds weren't to begin with.

Of course, many of you will say I'm just a whiney Fed. Maybe I am. But I've played all 4 races many times. I've learned how to fight as each competently, if not mastering them. Before the patch, I would say the best ships were Klingon, Borg(not counting the cube), Fed, and Romulan. With the patch, I'll have to play as all 4 races again to find out how things stand, but I don't see the Fed climbing the ladder.

RHC-Star Dagger · « **Reply #49 on:** February 28, 2003, 12:44:04 pm »

Greetings,

Posts like this just warm my heart. Play 500 or so games with the Betas and you will realize that what you say isnt true

And if it is, oh well, the Rihannsu are supposed to be the Superior race in St anyway.

Seeing you (right in front of me),
RHC-Star Dagger

RAGE Cyberbeer · « **Reply #52 on:** February 28, 2003, 02:00:36 pm »

Agreed, very nice post. Finally a brave soul posts the truth...not propaganda :P

Alexander1701 · « **Reply #53 on:** March 01, 2003, 03:07:45 am »

Okay two things

One: I never said all fed players were bad, just that all the bad players were scared away from Romulus. Thus, we have less players, but when you DO encounter one of us, it won't be a bad player.

Two: Examine. Each race has one of two things. Either they have the cloaking device, or a secondary dreadnought (BB for borg, but they need that for lack of shields). The fact is that you NEED intense cloaking action to beat a sovereign in a warbird. Its a matter of balance, and its why the Federation HAS the sovereign, and why we will never see the Arai Warbird.

On a pre-beta server, the Romulans and Federation players once signed an unofficial cease fire. Romulan AI lost nearly half our space to Federation AI before the Federation ambushed us and ended the treaty. There was a serious problem pre-patch. If it IS an issue, I would recommend that a server head sets the game to run without human players, and see what happens. I'm willing to bet money that the Romulans won't wipe out the federation.

Alexander

The_Joker · « **Reply #54 on:** March 01, 2003, 04:04:21 am »

This game is made for D3. Not gamespy. Has been from the start.

News:

Topic: Uber cloak (Read 8967 times) var addthis_config = {"data_track_clickback":true};

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Topic: Uber cloak (Read 8967 times)

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