Topic: Dom Wars  (Read 2622 times)

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nx_adam_1701

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Dom Wars
« on: April 15, 2004, 12:06:03 am »
In the Dominion Wars, there were alot of Mirandas and Excelsiors fighting, but in that time were they still considered to be FBC and FCL, or were they brought down to Miranda = FF and Excelsior = CL, I mean if the Akira and Ambassador are CA then whats up


adam out

ModelsPlease

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Re: Dom Wars
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2004, 03:36:16 am »
Here are the stats:

 The Federation at the end of the Dom War

Class / Type / Number Left

Akira / FBCH / 134
Ambassador / *(Enhanced) FDN / 31 / *Upgrade/Refit
Centaur / FFF / 303
Challanger / FCL / 9
Cheyenne / *(Enhanced)FCA / 30 / *Upgrade/Refit
Constellation / *(Obsolete)FCA / 5 / *Retired
Defiant / Escort / 26
Excelsior/ *(Standard)FBCH / 192 / *Excelsior style
Excelsior / *(Variant 1)FBCH / 58 /*1701-B subtype
Excelsior / *(Variant 2)FBCH / 1 / *Lakota subtype
Freedom / FCA / 14
Galaxy / *(Basic)FDN / 14 / *Ent-D
Galaxy / *(Uprated)FDN / 25 / *Refit
Griffin / FDD / 6
Intrepid / FCL / 35
Miranda / *(Enhanced)FDD / 353 / *Refit
Nebula / *(Basic)FBCH / 47
Nebula / *(Basic with Pod) / 23
Nebula / *(Uprated with Pod) / 23 /*Refit
NewOrleans / FFF / 98
Niagra / Fast FCA / 92
Norway / *(Enhanced)FDD / 68
Nova / FFF / 17
Oberth / FFF / 1,137
Olympic / FCL / 21
Polaris / FFF / 14
Prometheus / FCL / 1
Raider / FFF / 150
Raven / FFF / 118
Rigel / FCA / 14
Saber / FFF / 152
Shelley / FCA / 83
Sovereign / *(Basic)FDN / 3 / *Ent-E
Sovereign / *(Uprated) / 5 /*Nemesis refit
Springfield / FFF / 12
Steamrunner / FCL / 160
Trident / FCL / 5
Yeager / FCL / 3

Hope that helps.

 
-MP
   
« Last Edit: April 15, 2004, 08:36:34 am by ModelsPlease »

nx_adam_1701

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Re: Dom Wars
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2004, 10:02:10 am »
Thats helps but it also brings up alot of questions

such as

Sovereign being a FDN, I thought it was an advanced heavy battlecruiser, any thought on it

Miranda being a FDD, I though it was a lightcruiser not destroyer

Cheyenne, after a long time thinking about it I decided it would be better to be a CA rather than a CL, because of the Torpedoe laucheres

New Orleans, I changed the pods textures to that of the Intrepid Class so now it does look like sensor pods, and im only gonna have two torpedoe launchers Fwd and Aft

ummm lets see

Akira FBCH I thought it was just a CA

Ohhh yeah im sorry about all the questions, im just doing an update on my SFC2OP mod, the Defiant as an escort, the thing is theres no Escort classification in SFC2, only FF, CL, CA, DN, so where would that fall on, FF or CL, or DD in FF, or DD in CL lol confusing lol

Freedom I thought it was a Destroyer, but it sounds better if its a CA watcha think


But like I said earlier this was extremely helpful, although it raised more questions than answered, thanks MP

Adam out
 

Magnum357

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Re: Dom Wars
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2004, 10:45:59 pm »
Hey Adam, keep in mind that the although the TMP ships might have been classified as a CL for the Miranda, its very possible that the Federation reclassified them later as technology progressed.  But too be honest, Star Trek (unlike Star Fleet Battles) hardly ever catagorized it ships by type of vessel, only by Class and mission role.  Since the Federation in Star Trek is not a war like race, its possible they may have had their own type of Ship type classification system.  For example, most races would have FF, DD, CL, etc. for types of combat ships.  The Federation might have come up with a system like this based on Mass and Mission Role.  The following list is ships that I think the Federation might have classified outside of major wars for the federations peaceful exploration and possible Political Correctness reasons.

<Peace Time vessels>
Patrol Ships (PS) = Runabouts, etc.
Escorts (ES)= Mirandas, Centaurs, Norways, Sabres, etc.
Explorer Frigates (EF)= Cheyenne, Intrepid, New Orleans, etc.
Light Explorer Crusiers  (CLE)= Excelcior, Nebula, etc.
Heavy Explorer Crusiers (CHE)= Galaxy, Ambassador

Again, this is just a theory of mine of how Starfleet Classifies its ships during peace time.  War Time ships might have the standard system we are so familar with.  In this example, escorts are usually light vessels or vessels that have good combat value but have limited abilites in other areas (although Mirandas are fairly heavy for a ship like this, their lack of high tech equipment and range might make them little more useful then as an Escort ship much like the Defiants "Technical" role is).  

Just thought I would point out too you Adam, that not all races would classify their ships the same way.  Even in SFB, some races classified their ships a little differently then other races.  Did you ever notice that a Gorn DD is actually more like FF in combat value?  Or that a Klingon F-5 is an Excllent Frigate, but not a good Destroyer.  Or why the Romulan WB is a lousy Crusier during the General War which is why the Romulans in SFB did a crash program too build "War Time" vessels of a new design.  This is because some ships with some races where built differently then other races or that they required them for different missions throughout the fleet then another empire would use them for.
 

nx_adam_1701

  • Guest
Re: Dom Wars
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2004, 02:35:09 pm »
I get it now, you made some great points, I guess Im having trouble putting these ships in the shiplist, all i have is FF, Cl, CA, Dn, i mean i just want the hull type, after that I can always arm them as frigate or lightcruisers and etc...then the class type i can change too, im just having trouble putting them in these four hull types, i guess its time for me to decide what they should be in my preference, but all these things help alot, thank alot MP and M357

adam out

nx_adam_1701

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Re: Dom Wars
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2004, 03:56:46 pm »
Should the Classification type reflect the Hull type of ship. I have seen that in the orignal shiplist some vessel who are destroyers are both in the frgate hull and the Lightcruiser hull, so lets say I want the cheyenne to be classified as a cruiser but the hull type a CL, do you think thats alright, i also think the Mirnada should be in the lightcruiser catergory but in the FF hull range, M357, in your opinion how does that sound


adam out

ModelsPlease

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Re: Dom Wars
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2004, 11:43:25 pm »
I think hull size should play a role I mean I would find it hard to believe of an excelsior being a CL as it's quite a large ship.

Daystrom has a good data base on sizing :

 http://www.ditl.org

 

nx_adam_1701

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Re: Dom Wars
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2004, 12:22:41 am »
But Dastrom also has the Nebula Class as a heavycruiser, so according to them, how the hell is an excelsior which is smaller than a Nebula be a CA hull, i mean the Freedom class is really big next to a excelsior class but its refered to as a destroyer, im confused

adam out

ModelsPlease

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Re: Dom Wars
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2004, 12:33:39 am »
  Ok let's try approaching this from another perspective......

Obviously each era has it's biggest ship right ? Perhaps all the classes for that era are based on a size comparison to that ship.The ships from other era's that have continued on into the next i.e. the Excelsior obviously don't get reclassified,even though they no longer fit into the sizing scheme of the current era.The Excelsior in it's time (TMP Era) was one of if not the largest Fed ship ( canon that is ) but there had to be or for our sake we shall assume there was a BB that was used to classify all of the ships smaller than itself in that era.

Does that help at all ?  

Magnum357

  • Guest
Re: Dom Wars
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2004, 12:59:35 am »
Adam, I think it all depends on how you look at it.  Modelsplease has a point that you could look at ships in Star Trek by hull size, where the larger the ship the more powerful it would be.  But you could you could structure you ship list not so much by hull size but by capabilites and performace.  Lets face it, a Defiant is classifed as an "Escort" because it has a sh#t load of firepower and tactical Maneurvering, but it lacks Warp Speed, range (compared too Crusiers), limited Secondary roles, extremely limited crew accomadations, limited sensor/Scanner Abilites, etc..  Although the Defiants are powerful, they must be catagorized as Escorts because they can't cover other roles very well.  

This might be the case with many other ships in Starfleet.  For example, why is the Constellations being used so widely (with the few that are left) if they are such an old, ageing design barely enough too fullfil the roles of the fleet?  A few months ago, I came up with some theories that the Constellations where the answer too replace the ageing Constitutions.  I came up with the theory that Starfleet needed reorganized it ship building structure so that it could produce a vast amount of small and large ships with less strain on resources.  This theory works on the principle that the shipyards producing Constitutions and other large Crusers be converted too designs that have more main stream components.  The Mirandas, Constellations, Locknars, etc. all have similar design perameters.  Its possible that Starfleet, with the growing threat of large amounts of small Klingon ships, needed too find a way too make a large amount of ships but also have available ship yards too produce crusiers/capitol ships aswell.  I theoriezed that the Constellations are the "Poormans" Crusier of Starfleet in the 23rd Century and that Mirandas/Locknars where the smaller frigates of the capitols.  This gives all available Starfleet ship yards the capability of not only building Big Crusers, but also many smaller Frigates at a faster rate and cheaper cost (all ships use many basic space frames).  At the time, Constellations might have been a capable vessel, but in the 24th century their capabilites are much more limited.  Its very possible that Constelations could be classified as Escort vessels much like Mirandas.

Anyway, what I think you should do Adam for your mod (and again, this is just an opinion) is too not look at the "FF, CL, CA, DN" catagories as discribing Hull size and combat firepower, but (as I had stated above) a way of looking at hull types by mission and capabilites.  For example, the FF bracket could be defined as "Escorts" and that all races would be fit into that catagory by a certain critera.  The CL bracket could be used catagorized as "Frigates" of races where they have much wider range of capabilites as compared too the "Escorts" but certain classes would be limited compared too some classes in the "Escort" catagory.  the CA catagory could be listed as "Crusiers" of races.  They would be similar too the "Frigate" Classes, but are almost alwasy bigger and have more stuff then the Frigates.  Then finally, the DN catagory could be listed as "Capitol Ship" or "Flag Ship" catagory where almost all ships of this type are the largest that could be built in their time period.  The Excelcors, Ambssadors, Galaxies, etc. would be put into this catagory.   Also, the beauty of this system is that it can work with all races as each catagory is pretty general for Hull size as its focus is on Mission Role and Capabilites.  For example, most Klingon ships would proabably be catagorized as etheir Escorts or Capitol Ships and not many in between.  Even in SFB, much of the Klingon Fleet was like this.  Good Frigates and Battlecrusiers, but lack of any good Destroyers, DW's, CW's, etc. until the General War.  Same could be said about the Gem Hedar, lots of "Escorts" but very few of the other types.  

As for your question about Mirandas, I think they could be listed as "Escorts" or "Frigates" in my example above, but I don't know exactly how you want your Mirandas too work in your mod.  

ModelsPlease

  • Guest
Re: Dom Wars
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2004, 01:11:29 am »
I concur ,classify with both hull size and mission capability.A happy medium so to speak,then from there use your best judgement.And again I agree that would work for all the races.  

nx_adam_1701

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Re: Dom Wars
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2004, 02:59:13 pm »
Well, that helped alot, I took both ofyah advices and came up with a pretty good mod, as you said, and I do agree the miranda should be classified as an escort so i did, its in the frigate hull but classified as an escort vessel, nebula classes are in the ca hull type because i see them as explorer cruisers, ambassador dn, galaxy is also an explorer but the second refit that includes the two extra phaser arrays, and the families were removed and etc..., I decided that the ship should be classified as a battleship, watcha think

adam out

nx_adam_1701

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Re: Dom Wars
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2004, 03:36:47 pm »
Wonderful advice thx, Btwn both of you guys Im begining to understand everything
Another thing is Romulan Warbirds, do you guys consider it to be a Cruiser or a Dreadnought, I just finished watching TNG The Defector and I over heard him saying  to Tamalak " Are you willing to help us over power the Romulan B type Warbirds" etc...

So basically what Im asking is should I make a Romulan A type Warbird as a cruiser and make a B type as a Battleship,

adam out

Ohhhh and MP, do you have the Melak warbird from ST New Worlds, if you do can you email it to me at JDeleon3@nyc.rr.com

or link it

thanks

adam out

Magnum357

  • Guest
Re: Dom Wars
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2004, 04:31:39 pm »
Adam, keep in mind that Star Trek has a nasty habit of reusing models (at least in the older series) too represent many different types of ships in the show.  For example, the Klingon K'vort Class was originally going too be a completely new design for the Episode "Yesterdays Enterprise", but because of budget cost problems Paramont decided just too use the B'Rel model (Klingon Bird of Prey) too substitute the model origninally intended for the 3 K'vorts in the episode.  Over the years, Trekies decided that this was indeed Cannon (since they appeared in the episode) and excepted the fact that K'vorts where just upscaled B'rels.  This was also the case with many Romulan ships in TNG.  Personally, I always thought this was sort of dumb by Trekies (some of them take the show TOO literly at times) and liked how Taldren fleshes out the other races ship types in SFC3.  I just find it hard too beleive you could just "upscale" a smaller ship and work well as a larger vessel.  

As for the Warbirds themselves, its hard too say.  Again, we are not totally sure what class of ship they are too begin with.  According to the Daystrom institute, the Romulans made the Warbird so big mostly for intimidation purposes as its a little larger then a Galaxy.  But its firepower is a little less then a Galaxy is equipied with.  Also, the ship lacks a lot of manueverability and is an easier target too hit.  But one advantage it might have is for being so large is that it could carry a fair amount of Marines for Boarding party duties and such.  I never liked classifying it as a Capitol ship (as it seems kinda weak) but maybe that is why Starfleet had a Type "A" and "B" version of the same design.  Both use the same hull, but one type was well suited for multi role duties (Crusier) while the other is designed for Pure Combat and good Fleet command operations (Capitol).  Just my theory on the subject.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 pm by Magnum357 »

ModelsPlease

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Re: Dom Wars
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2004, 06:33:13 pm »
Quote:

Wonderful advice thx, Btwn both of you guys Im begining to understand everything
Another thing is Romulan Warbirds, do you guys consider it to be a Cruiser or a Dreadnought, I just finished watching TNG The Defector and I over heard him saying  to Tamalak " Are you willing to help us over power the Romulan B type Warbirds" etc...

So basically what Im asking is should I make a Romulan A type Warbird as a cruiser and make a B type as a Battleship,

adam out

Ohhhh and MP, do you have the Melak warbird from ST New Worlds, if you do can you email it to me at JDeleon3@nyc.rr.com

or link it

thanks

adam out  




No problemo,it's on it's way.You should have it shortly.
 
-MP  

ModelsPlease

  • Guest
Re: Dom Wars
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2004, 06:50:54 pm »
I can definately agree with that assessment of the Warbird.Define them by their mission capability.I would place the Reman warbird Scimitar as a BB.The Valdore as a DN as well as theType B.Type A as Bch or heavy Ca.My reasoning is this.......in "Yesterdays Enterprise" the general agreement is that is was 3 Melak warbirds that destroyed the Ent-C.If we classify Ent-C as a Dn and it took 3 of them to get the job done,then the Melak can't be any bigger than a Ca in it's classification. My $.02 on warbirds.On another note there are a few fan-based ships out there that can fill in the gaps for your Romulan fleet,because they are not canon,their designation and roles are limited only by your own imagination.OTS does anyone know if the romulan ships from Birth of the Federation were ever converted to SFC ?
 
-MP  

nx_adam_1701

  • Guest
Re: Dom Wars
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2004, 07:27:40 pm »
yes I like that idea M357 and MP, Warbird as a Cruiser, and keep the hull and make the DN alittle bit stronger weapons and stuff, thanks for the Melak BTW,

adam out

 

sandman69247

  • Guest
Re: Dom Wars
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2004, 08:49:27 pm »
Good stuff guys! A few points...The "current",i.e. TNG, Warbird is the big brother of the Melak, which is the warbird in the Lost Era.

The classifyting of the older ships is trickier, due, as was said, to the old classifications. In ST:III, the Excelsior is the baddest thing thing on the block, so is a DN (I assume). We still see them in TNG, but now they're more in the role of Diplomatic Cruiser. I see that as Starfleet re-shuffleing roles as technology progresses, so for a TNG/DS9/Voyager era SFC classification, I would do it as a CA.

The Constellation class I see as more the workhorse explorer. The Connstitutions were glamour ships, meant to be high profile, while the Constellation was built for "real" scientific exploration. Picard complained that it was underpowered, and buy the standards when he assumed command (of the Stargazer), it was. But, it was still a good explorer, so he was able to make a name for himself and his ship.

For all the old ships, they mostly operate deep in Federation space by the time of TNG, so you could easily make em all police ships.

Good luck on the mod, and I hope I didn't confuse you further.  

nx_adam_1701

  • Guest
Re: Dom Wars
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2004, 09:12:55 pm »
Not at all, I have another question lol lol, me and my questions

ok in my mod which is for TNG by the way, and for anyone who doesnt know for the SFC2OP game not SFC3
I have the phasers set as follows

Phaser3 ---------------------- Type 6 Phasers
Phaser2 ---------------------- Type 8 Phasers
Phaser1 ---------------------- Type 9 Phasers
PhaserX ---------------------- Type 10 Phasers
Phaser4 ---------------------- Type 12 Phasers

I wanted to change the names into this but Im having trouble finding one last name for a phaser

Phaser3 ---------------------- ???? Power Phasers
Phaser2 ---------------------- Low Power Phasers
Phaser1 ---------------------- Medium Power Phasers
PhaserX ---------------------- High Power Phasers
Phaser4 ---------------------- ???? Power Phasers
Phaser A----------------------Advanced High Power Phasers

Now to help you guys out alittle, the Phaser 3 I only use for the shuttles and fighters and stuff, not on starships, the lowest for starships would be phaser 2, and i use the phaser A for the Norway's forward phaser bank, the galaxy classes refit, you know the one on the warp engines, I think i might put it on the saratoga, the nebula refit, i was thinking the miranda, still thinking about it though, I dont want to use numbers because im taking someone advice and instead of complaining about the UI issues in sfc2op, ill just put stronger phasers on starships to go around the problem, for instance i used to just have PhaserX on the galaxy class but because I can not give it 12 phaser arrays, Ill just put a couple of phaser 4's on the saucer and light ones on the back, but I rather see on the screen that the weapons say High power, medium and etc.. instead of seeing Phaser12, phaser 10, phaser 9 and etc..., so does anyone have any good names for the two that I am missing, im stumped, i even tried the thesaurus, even if you have to switch them around, and change the advanced to something else like the 4 or anything, gimme anything i dont care, but something good lol , thx guys

adam out

MajorRacal

  • Guest
Re: Dom Wars
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2004, 09:36:18 pm »
Perhaps

Low
Basic
Medium
High
Enhanced
Advanced

or

Light
Low
Medium
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Heavy
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