Topic: Why are people complaining? (Read 6969 times)

Captain KoraH · « **on:** February 26, 2003, 04:31:57 pm »

In my personal opinion, we are lucky to get any patch at all for a game that sells like SFC3 did. I remember playing other Activision games that NEVER got a patch. There are people on this forum that have been here for years YEARS waiting for a chance to download a 200mb mod, and play with exquisite models in a online game like the current D3, regardless of the bugs. These people at Taldren and ATVI aren't donating their time to SFC3. They aren't nursing their sweet lil' baby to adult-gamehood. They are running a business. If they don't keep working on new things, they don't have a job. So, as long as those people are willing to set aside some of their time to work on SFC3 upgrades and patches, however incomplete or 'beta' they are, then I'm extatic. And the fact that they even release a 'beta' version of the patch is to me, flattering. What company would release their product before it's finished? A company that cared about their customers' wishes more than they care about their own image. Taldren has time and again made me worship them for their generous devotion to this community. And let's not forget that all the while they're doing it for US. They don't have to make ANY patches. They can take your money and walk with it. Just how do you think they are paying those folks who are making the patch anyway? Are you going to pay for it when it's done? No, you aren't. I think it's time people around here stop whining about the patch, and start enjoying themselves. It's all for you in the end.

Blitzkrieg · « **Reply #1 on:** February 26, 2003, 04:44:54 pm »

I largly agree with that, however its good business sense to have "after sales" care, in this case a patch. As any good business based student knows (yes im taking the mick out of myself a bit here), on average it costs 10 times more money to generat a loyal customer than to keep one.

However I say again, I agree with you.

SirWilliam · « **Reply #2 on:** February 26, 2003, 05:15:12 pm »

On the whole I agree with KoraH. I'm very happy to have this Beta patch, thanks to Taldren and to Activision for listening to our complaints and producing/offering this patch. From my limited play since it was released the game seems much improved...

...that is to say, much closer to delivering what it advertised. IMO that is the basic issue people are concerned with.

The game as released "retail" out of the box definitely did not function as advertised on the packaging, there's really no disputing this. Multiplayer functionality was poor at best, especially in the D3. I don't have the box with me right now but if you want more examples, take a look at it. Did the game pre-beta patch seem anything like what was offered on the box? It was like buying a CD of "Figaro" and only being able to hear the vocals and the strings.

By producing this Beta patch, Taldren has demonstrated once again their loyalty, business sense, whatever you want to call the reaons they did it. They are gradually making the game work as it was supposed to, and if precedent (excluding OP) is to be believed, they will eventually get it working right, and those of us who have been their loyal customers will continue to buy their products.

Activision in allowing Taldren to release the Beta is also showing that they are at least concerned with customer complaints about the product they essentially marketed. Are they legally obligated to provide patches? I don't believe they are. So to my mind they are attempting to keep their once-and-future customers happy, as much as possible considering the financial aspects cited by Captain KoraH above.

So basically, I'm saying people had a reason to complain, but it appears that Taldren and Activision are devoting resources to gettting us a quality product in the end. I don't expect it to happen overnight and I know there is a lot of work that goes into this. In the meantime I for one am very happy with the improvements the Beta patch offers and will continue to have fun playing this game... though I'm definitely looking forward to the "final" patch.

(stepping down off soap box...)

SW

**edit: spelling error

Belchfire · « **Reply #3 on:** February 26, 2003, 05:56:57 pm »

Being a big Trek fan it does not take much to capture my interest when something becomes available. Movies, memorabilia, autographs, DVD's, and now games. I do not know Taldren's past history or their devotion to their customers. As a new customer there is no reason I should nor is there any reason to treat them different from any other gaming company when you take this into regard. I play computer games very different from this one as a norm. All of the games I play got top endorsements from the publication I subscribe to. High ratings for gameplay, graphics, support, and lack of gaming errors(bugs). All of these games ALWAYS had patches for their games, often released the same day they went on sale. Often times more followed not long thereafter. Almost all of these games automatically took you to a download site so you would have the current version the minute you went online to play the game. This to me is a standard and something I expect from game companies. If you were in my shoes you would fully understand.

I bought OP when it came out, played it for a while and eventually lost interest. The game was fun and I saw no bugs in it. You veterans of the series though did see errors and hence a patch was released for it. This was my first Trek oriented game. So now I buy SFC3 since my good friend highly endorses it and am playing it online. I also bought it prior to my publications' review of the game. I enjoy it but notice glaring issues with the gameplay. Not talking about weapon damage or missing hardpoints, just actual errors in the game itself. Ones that could easily exist in any other game. And for the most part this is not a crisis since I am used to games having some bugs and usually a patch comes out within a month of release. So when the patch I see offered is a Beta, after being lead to believe it would be a formal patch, I found it somewhat disheartening. Remember, I am not an old time customer of this designer's software so whatever history Taldren has with their customer base would be unknown to me. So for myself and others like me, it would be expected that we would complain. We are basing these complaints for lack of expected support that we did see on other games we own. My purchase of this game is more in line of what Actision was shooting for. Star Trek was in the spotlight of their new movie being released and what better time to offer a game than during this time. The sales to veteran gamers of the series was expected, but debuting it now would generate revenue from the non-Trek gamers.That was where Activision was hoping to generate sales. I am sure many of you saw the movie ticket in the box, what better ploy to get a fan of the series interested in buying the game than to throw in an extra perk?

I have no idea how many copies of the game were sold, whether it surpassed or fell short of the mark. But in no way do I agree that a company has the right to not support their product when they put it up for sale with known issues. Unless of course the company is just trying to make a quick buck and run. From what I have read by old time fans of Taldren I do not expect that behavior from them. So patience has to be learned with this particular designer when you calculate their issues with their publisher. May not be a new issue with you veterans but for us newcomers this is something new. Any company that does not support a product they make will have a short life span with the public. Smart businesses that plan for longevity know that customer support is an absolute must for long term survival. You hear it everyday on the radio and tv, businesses striving to show their customer support to the public in hopes of bringing in new revenue. So yes I do expect Taldren and Activision to get this game fixed. I do think they are obligated to do so if for nothing more than their own self interest in the future. I just don't expect it to be a short term process like I am accustomed too. I can get over that, but with all people being different I would never expect everyone else to feel this way.

Be Well

Belch

moosefoof · « **Reply #4 on:** February 26, 2003, 07:00:16 pm »

Quote:

And the fact that they even release a 'beta' version of the patch is to me, flattering

What's wrong with you man!
This patch was released so that customers will remain loyal and feel that they are getting their moneys worth.
How you can be flattered by the release is just, weird.

Quote:

Taldren has time and again made me worship them for their generous devotion to this community.

Community members = guaranteed customers. Don?t forget that taldren is a money making organisation, and you are a potential customer. Sorry if this hurts some of your feelings?

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And let's not forget that all the while they're doing it for US

I agree with that. Only, the way you say it, it seems you think that their doing it out of the kindness of their hearts. Not the weight of their wallet.

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They don't have to make ANY patches

Taldren ? you heard the man! Don?t bother making patches and see how it goes! Weee

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Are you going to pay for it when it's done?

IMO ? I paid for them when I bought the game

Quote:

It's all for you in the end

I won?t explain again?

Just to note ? I don?t think any of the taldren staff are bad people (im sure they are all very nice). I have no reference by which to judge any.

BuckStrider · « **Reply #5 on:** February 26, 2003, 07:32:40 pm »

Well...I have a mixed opinion when it comes to Taldren.

1) As far as Taldren is as supporting it's customers...I'll say they are one of the best..They listen to us..They support us..They talk to us.

2) I think Taldren can do alot better than what they have been doing over the last few years...I do understand that they are hard pressed to make a product that will sell so they can pay bills...I do understand that they have NOT had great relations with the game publishers that they have been with..Although Interplay DID give them slack when it came to patches.

3) I do not like the fact that Taldren has made the same game 4 times in as many years...Although I loved SFC 1&2 (OP to me is an expantion pack)...SFC3 is,I'm sorry to say,not a good game...For me it is just a simplified version of the former 2 with just better "eye candy" in some aspects...But gameplay just lacks horribly...Single player games are just plain bad and boring because of the VERY limited number of missions that can be flown...Also the same game engine has been recycled for as long as the SFC series has been out.

4) I am glad that Taldren and ATVI had this little "spat" on this and other forums...Maybe..And as it seems it has..Gave Taldren that "kick in the ass" ,they needed,to strive to make a game that they can Produce..Direct...Publish..and Distribute themselves,without the constrains of a 3rd party, so they can release a "quality" game on thier own...Hopefully,and with some luck, they can be on a high level with companies like Praxis,Redstorm,Westwood(although bought out by EA) and Blizzard,just to name a few.(O.k..I'll throw in Rockstar too...I do like the GTA series)

In Conclusion...I'm not "harping" on Taldren because I think they "suck"..I don't think they suck..Actually, I think they are a bunch of very talented people that formed to make high quality games on the PC (and now other gaming platforms).
I think they have been "shafted" by the 3rd parties that say "Get this done by today or we're going to sue you for breech of contract"

I'm VERY happy that they are using a ver. of Atari's "UNREAL" game engine to base thier next game on...They now have a "tried and true" engine platform to make a truly spectacular game worthy of thier talents

I will continue to support Taldren by buying games made by Taldren...BUT...That will only go as so far to the point where I think Taldren is just in it to "throw out games".

No...I don't like SFC3...No...I don't play SFC3....Good luck on your next PC project...I'll be waiting for it to hit the shelves

Tulmahk · « **Reply #6 on:** February 26, 2003, 08:10:45 pm »

I agree with one caveat: patches are an expected part of a game's release, and the purchase price, IMHO, covers the costs of getting a game into 99% bug-free status.

And if the purchase price didn't cover that, the issuing company would have to reexamine their financial model and make certain to include that in their math the next time it became time to calculate a purchase price.

That caveat out of the way, I'm incredulous that so many people are complaining about the beta patch, and even refusing to use it all together. Having worked in customer service for several years, I know there is just no satisfying some people no matter what you do (SFBOG, anyone?). A smart company writes those people off as a loss, and concentrates on those rational people who know how to do something other than complain. Thankfully the vast majority of people, in the form of a silent majority, can be satisfied. And I'm one of them. If I critisize, it is constructive criticism. And I'll be certain to praise where appropriate, too.

Whiplash · « **Reply #7 on:** February 27, 2003, 01:22:40 am »

Taldren has done their job TOO well. They've made superb games and supported them superbly well, to the point that people get utterly obsessed with their games and make demands they'd never make of other games.

W.

TheSatyr · « **Reply #8 on:** February 27, 2003, 02:53:41 am »

The only company I know of that supports it's games better than Taldren is Paradox.

The down side of that is that Paradox's games ship in a much buggier condition than Taldren's do....and need all the help they can get just to make them playable. Hearts of Iron and EU2 were CTD hell until the second or third patches for those games.

Blitzkrieg · « **Reply #11 on:** February 27, 2003, 06:37:31 am »

Sheesh, this argument will go on forever. Damnit companies have to have after sales care, its stupid not to. But it dosnt mean people dont have to be thankful for it, say thank you be nice and even be flattered if they want to. After all this is the point of the after sales care in the first place, they are supposed to make us feel good and so we come back for more!

Its like if buy a computer from somewhere, and somthing is wrong with it and lets say the graphics card they fitted stunk the place out. Not only was it under powered for the machine but most games wouldnt run with it cause it had so many conflicts. A good company, will replace the graphics card, then you say thank you thats very nice of you. If they didnt you could possibly take the PC back and get your money back, complain to the Office of Fair Trading, complain to consumer rights organisations and many more things.

This would reflect badly on the company you purchased your PC from. This isnt a perfect example but my point is, after stating your complaints and them doing there best to fix them, I think its only right for you to say "THANK YOU". If Korah is flattered thats cool, hes a valued member of the community he puts time and effort into it. For him its more of a, "I got out of it what I put in", hes happy so let him be.

Right thats enough avoiding writing my dissertation, need to get this bugger done.

Highlander · « **Reply #12 on:** February 27, 2003, 07:50:13 am »

I hate to butt in but I feel as dealing with customer support in the past does give me a bit more insight. I on a hand had to do software upgrades and changes for customers using a gas manifold system. These updates were primarily fixes that needed to happen because of a mistake on our part or that the customer wanted something else. One customer wanted me to make them a new Eprom with just the infromation that they gave me. Well what happen was the valve configuration that they wanted was not correct to the manifold type. Needless to say i was asking for information from them and they finally got pissed off enough where we gave them what they wanted even though it wasn't correct. I covered my butt on that one because I figured that the problem would bite me in the butt soon enough. So I went ahead and let my boss know about it and his boss as well that I do not want to be held personally accountable for this mistake. I do not know if it did cause a problem because after 4 months I did not hear anything back. So I think that taldern and activision are just saying like I did that we are not sure exactly how this patch will work and since this is not complete we cannot completely insure that it will work without problems. The only reason we are releasing this beta patch is because you want it. Dont come crying to us about it because we warned you. While the beta patch is kinda nice I do understand why its a beta and not a full blown patch.

The main reason for that story is saying why you might not want to support what the customer wants you have to give it to them. You can cover yourself with a warning and letting the customer know that this is not complete or not fully to your expectmentations. But since you are a valved customer we will give you what we can and hope to fix everything else with your continuing input. So its kinda saying dont complain because you wanted it and deserve what you get for pushing us.

RAGE Cyberbeer · « **Reply #13 on:** February 27, 2003, 08:10:15 am »

It seems to me that you resent the fact Taldren is making money off of this game. I'm sorry you dont have a grasp of what true capitalism is...

Captain KoraH · « **Reply #16 on:** February 27, 2003, 03:04:50 pm »

This will be my last comment on the subject, as I see it will only start an unwinnable argument since everyone has (and is entitled to) their own opinion.

Everyone and anyone who thinks that what they paid for SFC3 should cover a patch and after-market care... I wonder what fantasy world you live in, where everything is fair, and everyone is obligated to do what's right. I say that because it is indeed a fantasy, and some of you here will some day wake up to the realization that life is hard, unfair, unforgiving and ambivolent. The sooner you stop believeing that someone will always be there to give you what you need, hold your hand, tell you how everything will be alright when you screw up, ect ect, then the sooner you will start living life in reality, where you have to make your own way, sink or swim, live or die, by your own hand and your own heart, and stop being a pupet to societies' lie of self importance. Taldren and Activision have no more obligation to give you what you want than you have to buy what they make. The fact that they DO try to give you what you want is my point, and the reason I am and will remain loyal to them. And I'm sorry, but anyone who dissagrees with me is just plain wrong.

LongTooth · « **Reply #19 on:** February 27, 2003, 06:33:09 pm »

My god you right we have been so blind how this place has lasted with out you is beond me please oh great one share some more of your sage wisdom with us poor blind fools so we may bask in your light :rolleyes:
But first let me ask you this when interplay stoped supporting SFC2 and OP who took on running the CD key checking server plus who took on pacthing said games untill well after interplay stoped making pacthes for them? long after they stoped getting money for it and at a cost to them(for running the server)

News:

Topic: Why are people complaining? (Read 6969 times) var addthis_config = {"data_track_clickback":true};

Captain KoraH

Blitzkrieg

SirWilliam

Belchfire

moosefoof

BuckStrider

Tulmahk

Whiplash

TheSatyr

RAGE Cyberbeer

moosefoof

Blitzkrieg

Highlander

RAGE Cyberbeer

AdmiralFrey_XC

moosefoof

Captain KoraH

Tora

moosefoof

LongTooth

Topic: Why are people complaining? (Read 6969 times)