Topic: Rapid space transport (Exotic or speculative technologies Thread) (Read 10680 times)

Stormbringer · « **on:** March 25, 2004, 05:01:16 pm »

Tangentially to my planetary construction thread the topic of warp drives and Zero Point Energy and other speculative science ideas has come up. To keep focused whilst still discussing these fascinating topics I decided to start another series of threads this one is for Si-Fi like or advanced propulsion systems and ancilliary or spin off technologies.

IOW we should discuss various schema for FTL and or reletavistic sublight spacefight. Everything from nuclear engines to dimensional travel and the proposed solutions or theories necessary for them to work. Advanced propulsion schemes are hardly exclusive to fiction. NASA itself has delved into nuclear fission, fusion, anti-matter, light sails, laser, and even anti-gravity propulsion. Some with actual hardware (Minerva, Nerva) some laboratory studies and some just conceptual studies.

And there is always the fringe science, basement scientists and even some outright k0oks which; established science aside, I find fascinating. It's all within the bounds of this discussion. Who shall go first?

Stormbringer · « **Reply #1 on:** March 26, 2004, 09:12:15 pm »

What -no one here is interested in speculating on the evolution of space propulsion technology on a space naval simulation web site where one's credentials are protected by relative anonymity? Afraid of looking silly? Buncha space wussies. You're scared. Scared!

Stormbringer · « **Reply #2 on:** March 27, 2004, 08:22:57 pm »

This is getting depressing, I'm having a conversation with myself again. NASA Daedelus design ? Icharus? MINERVA? NIRVA?

oes nobody know anything about these serious early attempts at advanced propulsion or design for spacecraft or propulsion?

ActiveX · « **Reply #3 on:** March 27, 2004, 08:45:01 pm »

I have several advanced propulsor designs running around my head...

Some are based on neutron diffusion (a bit farfetched) and another is a gravity drive (pulls or pushes stellar object to incite motion)...

I have loads, but no real theoretical science knowledge to base them on hehe...nother words Im not even a high school graduate...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #4 on:** March 27, 2004, 09:15:14 pm »

Thanks for responding anyways.

I was debating whether or not to delete my thread as it seems no one wished to do more than post political bicking threads. So lets talk about some of your ideas.

The best way to create a believable "specnology" is to acquaint one's self with science -even if just popularizations rather than in dept texts and to read sci'fi authors. BTW the gravity drive is not that far fetched. Podlekov's experiments are being redone for duplication purposes by NASA. There are cosmological theories that require a large scale antigravity force in the universe to explain it's behavior. And thats a whole discusion on it's own. Still, lets take one of your terms and toss it around to see if something can be made from it. Sort of the way a photon torpedo is called that instead of antimatter/ matter anhilation torpedo.

Neutrons are only stable inside a nucleus. Outside a nucleus they have a half life of 10 minutes whereupon they decay into other particles. how much energy does it take to remove nuetrons from a nucleus? isn't that called fission? if so what produces more energy the fission or the neutron decay? Is neutron decay what you had in mind in the term neutron diffusion? Diffusion, of course means the dispersal of something by random collision or kinetic activity inherent in the something or the medium. Which would imply neutrons dispercing from a state of higher density to one of lowwer density. That alone would not produce energy that could be used for propulsion or anything else. Now if you look for a chaotic system far from equilibrium involving nuetrons in some way then you might be able to get some energy by spontaneous self organisation or a temporary reversal ofthe thermodynamic entropy. (in a localized area.)

But there are other particles better suited to use in such a scheme as neutrons are hard to control being nuetral they cannot be guided by the things that make electrons and protons easy to manipulate. If you called it proton difusion and found a way to cause them to decay at a much faster rate than thier incredible theoretical half life then you might have something.

If you went with the chaotic entropy violation your generator would more correctly be called a rectifier or valve or diode. it could be prefaced with whatever particles were harvested for energy production E.G: "Pion diffusion diode" or virtual particle collector diode stack. The thing could be positied to mine the quantum foam for virtual electrons and trappingthem bewfore they can fade back into non existance. It would theoretically have infinite energy available for production.

IRL though such harvesting schemas uses the casimir effect to extract tiny virtually useless amounts of energy from the vacuum with tremendous effort to do even that. if the even succeeded in the first place.

ActiveX · « **Reply #5 on:** March 27, 2004, 09:21:14 pm »

I know the gravity drive is possible and even most probable, just need to be able to artificially influence mass...

An example I used to fling around would be to trick a deckplate into thinking it was much more massive and exert enough gravity to be able to stand on it in a 'zero gravity' environment...

If we could do that, there is nothing we can't do.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #6 on:** March 27, 2004, 09:35:13 pm »

There are a number of possibilities. Centrifugal forces, higgs bosons, gravitons, cosmological constant modification. GUT field manipulation. some centuries away from even seeing if they are possible. Some rather mundane. Some currently being experimented on. Podelkov (Spelling?) basically used superconductors spinning at ultra-high velocity to apparenly either mimick or synthesize gravity at a different vector than the earths or to partially nulify or shield against gravity. This is thought to be impossible by current understandings of physics. And thus far no one has replicated his results. Though the replication efforts have been criticised for not following his protocols, exactly and are being redone.

ActiveX · « **Reply #7 on:** March 27, 2004, 09:39:56 pm »

Centrifugal force is a misnomer, it isn't a force it is an effect...

Right now we have the Centrifugal Effect working on us, if we didn't, the gravity of the Earth would feel a lot more powerful...

I took enough of Physics in school to know that hehe...

Anyhow, I personally think that ultimately we will have to bend space to even get anywhere, because even gravity has it's limits...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #8 on:** March 27, 2004, 09:46:25 pm »

Really centrepital/centrifugal force may be a misnomer but it is the term commonly used for what keeps water in a bucket when swung around on a rope in a vertical axis.

ActiveX · « **Reply #9 on:** March 27, 2004, 09:53:27 pm »

I know, sort of like hacker...

Anyway it isnt the key...

The universe may well be expanding because of it, but so does time in correlating ratio that never sofar as we know waivers...

But all that matters is that perception changes hehe, if we perceive a journey taking 42 minutes it wont matter if it took 42 centuries...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #10 on:** March 27, 2004, 09:56:27 pm »

If you were delusional and could not percieve me beating you to death with a hammer. Would you upon the completion of my task, be alive?

ActiveX · « **Reply #11 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:03:58 pm »

For you it might only take seconds, but for me it might never end...

It really is a perception thing, it is documented with atomic clocks that you can literally lose seconds while flying at top speed in an SR-71, I imagine that one day hypersonic transports wont just fly at mach 12, they will make it seem shorter by just doing so...

Like let's say that a flight to Hong Kong from Istanbul would be 20 minutes via hypersonic transport, but an entire minute is shaved off just from going that fast, so while the ground control has you at 20 minutes of flight, you arrive a minute early...

Imagine the airlines capitalizing on that... hehe

Southwest, we get you there faster

Stormbringer · « **Reply #12 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:08:55 pm »

Not really perception there. It is relativity. Since an observer is involved I guess you could make the claim perception is involved like that but like your centrifugal correction it is not really accurate terminology. That aside; my mystical theories do hold that sort of place for perception and Will. An interesting experience I had during a deliberate attempt to percieve a condition that was unreal and to create that situation as real tends to back it up, -but that is a discussion not suited for this particular forum.

ActiveX · « **Reply #13 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:13:26 pm »

Hehe, either way it stacks up the same, if you are travelling to a system 400 lightyears away, you won't much care that you should have died last Tuesday...

I also think light speed is only impossible when you are immobile (

I know), but when you are actually attempting to go light speed you won't have that same realization...

It's like not knowing you are going 120 mph until you look at the speedo or are outside the vehicle...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #14 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:18:23 pm »

Light speed is constant. things like time passage, inertial mass and so forth are relative but a headlight on a car traveling at 99 percent of light speed is still just going off the car at light speed. they are not additive. an observer in one reference frame observes time at one rate. An observer in an outside reference frame percieves it at another but instruments back it up so it is not perception per se that is different. It is the data coming in that has changed.

ActiveX · « **Reply #15 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:24:08 pm »

And that is what the focus should be, why does the data change, and why do our calculations say light speed is impossible?

Maybe the key is to make light of ourselves.

Since photons cease to exist once they stop moving, there would have to be a way to stop it...

Essentially, we have to invent the transporter...

And IIRC, it already has been sofar as we can tell...what was it a proton that they moved from one atom to another instantly?

The thing that I don't get is why we can measure infinite...light speed is finite, and finite is surpassable...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #16 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:29:24 pm »

IIRC it was a photon. BTW photons can be "frozen" in a laser confinement system (like ghost busters.

)

ActiveX · « **Reply #17 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:31:20 pm »

But the photon is moving, just not in relation to the observer...

One other thing I don't seem to understand is why we have to settle for going lightspeed...

Why not just fold the damn universe in half and step across...much faster...

Or we could create some wormholes and play Stargate SG-1...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #18 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:40:09 pm »

Good topics!

Energy (or mass) is the currency needed to fold space. Trek's warp is just a spatial surf ride but it is folding space, -just not on such a large scale. Even treklike folding space requires more energy than the output of the sun. (and that may be putting it mildly) Still that sort ofthing can be done it is just a matter of time until we find the means to produce the energy needed or fid a way to finesse less energy into doing an equivelent thing.( I'd give this one a 20 percent there rating)

Wormholes. well we are capable of this just at a microscopic space scale and fleeting duration. Mind you there is a way theoretically to enlage wormholes from the quantum scale where they exist naturally and make them large enough to drive a ship through (or to walk through.) Once we demonstrate this in the lab then we need to work on how to ensure the other opening is near someplace we want to go. So this one is about 33% there.

SL-Punisher · « **Reply #19 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:42:05 pm »

Einstien only said it was impossible for a given object to approach the speed of light..of cours this doesn't apply to objects already traveling at the speed of light or faster.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #20 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:46:16 pm »

True. Tachyons (hypothetically speaking) escape the light speed limit in a number of ways and a careful examinations merely says inertial mass is infinite at light speed not after. In fact it reverses and becomes less the faster you go after passing through light speed. Quantum tunneling ( or something like it) could jump this barrier.

ActiveX · « **Reply #21 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:50:31 pm »

Well the thing is, why do we have to go lightspeed, if just turning into light would be more efficient and faster?

Assume for a minute that you could be decoded if you will into a beam of light and shot at say...the moon, and then recoded into your previous form?

This could go hand in hand with cloning, I once watched a show about time travel in that your memories were transported into your clone at the destination, and the original you had to be killed (literally). When you came back, a new clone was created where you started and your new memories are implanted in the new one...

It was a weird show, especially since a Velociraptor was the operator of the machine...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #22 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:50:49 pm »

Active, you got me thinking on the problem of navigating with worm holes. If I could create the macroscopic mouth of a worm hole at will and I could create them in such a way that the terminus was always a fixed distance and direction in front of the ship it would not mater if the worm hole were not very long. By creating them in series, I could create the effect of a continuous worm hole to my final destination. The time elapsed would be finite but a tiny tiny fraction of the time it would take to traverse normal space time.

ActiveX · « **Reply #23 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:58:00 pm »

I don't think wormholes will be much use for the frontier, but I see no reason we couldn't build a gate system as we expand...

Remember, communication is the downfall of any empire and stagnation happens when you can't order expansion...

If we can't talk to our frontiers in other systems, we can't even pretend that we are expanding...

So a wormhole transport system could double as a Verizon Stellarless comlink...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #24 on:** March 27, 2004, 11:06:04 pm »

Yes but remember we ar trying out the various proposed FTL like systems to see which is more "doable." The wormhole thing has the virtue of not taking as much energy (possibly) as the others and has a method for control of the endpoint. messages could be sent through them or by tachons or by stable quantum entangled digital code streams using huge puopulations of entangled particles to "communicate" with each other (by polarity switching) instantly. The multitude would prevent degradation of the signal due to unentaglement of some of the particles or other accidents. Most phyicists claim no info could actually be sent this way due to the fragile nature of entanglement. My massivly parrallel scheme should alleviate that concern.

ActiveX · « **Reply #25 on:** March 27, 2004, 11:07:59 pm »

If we have to we could just put a message in a frickin bottle...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #26 on:** March 27, 2004, 11:13:22 pm »

Let's continue tomorrow. I'm going to bed.

ActiveX · « **Reply #27 on:** March 27, 2004, 11:14:03 pm »

Hehe, night.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #28 on:** March 25, 2004, 05:01:16 pm »

Tangentially to my planetary construction thread the topic of warp drives and Zero Point Energy and other speculative science ideas has come up. To keep focused whilst still discussing these fascinating topics I decided to start another series of threads this one is for Si-Fi like or advanced propulsion systems and ancilliary or spin off technologies.

IOW we should discuss various schema for FTL and or reletavistic sublight spacefight. Everything from nuclear engines to dimensional travel and the proposed solutions or theories necessary for them to work. Advanced propulsion schemes are hardly exclusive to fiction. NASA itself has delved into nuclear fission, fusion, anti-matter, light sails, laser, and even anti-gravity propulsion. Some with actual hardware (Minerva, Nerva) some laboratory studies and some just conceptual studies.

And there is always the fringe science, basement scientists and even some outright k0oks which; established science aside, I find fascinating. It's all within the bounds of this discussion. Who shall go first?

Stormbringer · « **Reply #29 on:** March 26, 2004, 09:12:15 pm »

What -no one here is interested in speculating on the evolution of space propulsion technology on a space naval simulation web site where one's credentials are protected by relative anonymity? Afraid of looking silly? Buncha space wussies. You're scared. Scared!

Stormbringer · « **Reply #30 on:** March 27, 2004, 08:22:57 pm »

This is getting depressing, I'm having a conversation with myself again. NASA Daedelus design ? Icharus? MINERVA? NIRVA?

oes nobody know anything about these serious early attempts at advanced propulsion or design for spacecraft or propulsion?

ActiveX · « **Reply #31 on:** March 27, 2004, 08:45:01 pm »

I have several advanced propulsor designs running around my head...

Some are based on neutron diffusion (a bit farfetched) and another is a gravity drive (pulls or pushes stellar object to incite motion)...

I have loads, but no real theoretical science knowledge to base them on hehe...nother words Im not even a high school graduate...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #32 on:** March 27, 2004, 09:15:14 pm »

Thanks for responding anyways.

I was debating whether or not to delete my thread as it seems no one wished to do more than post political bicking threads. So lets talk about some of your ideas.

The best way to create a believable "specnology" is to acquaint one's self with science -even if just popularizations rather than in dept texts and to read sci'fi authors. BTW the gravity drive is not that far fetched. Podlekov's experiments are being redone for duplication purposes by NASA. There are cosmological theories that require a large scale antigravity force in the universe to explain it's behavior. And thats a whole discusion on it's own. Still, lets take one of your terms and toss it around to see if something can be made from it. Sort of the way a photon torpedo is called that instead of antimatter/ matter anhilation torpedo.

Neutrons are only stable inside a nucleus. Outside a nucleus they have a half life of 10 minutes whereupon they decay into other particles. how much energy does it take to remove nuetrons from a nucleus? isn't that called fission? if so what produces more energy the fission or the neutron decay? Is neutron decay what you had in mind in the term neutron diffusion? Diffusion, of course means the dispersal of something by random collision or kinetic activity inherent in the something or the medium. Which would imply neutrons dispercing from a state of higher density to one of lowwer density. That alone would not produce energy that could be used for propulsion or anything else. Now if you look for a chaotic system far from equilibrium involving nuetrons in some way then you might be able to get some energy by spontaneous self organisation or a temporary reversal ofthe thermodynamic entropy. (in a localized area.)

But there are other particles better suited to use in such a scheme as neutrons are hard to control being nuetral they cannot be guided by the things that make electrons and protons easy to manipulate. If you called it proton difusion and found a way to cause them to decay at a much faster rate than thier incredible theoretical half life then you might have something.

If you went with the chaotic entropy violation your generator would more correctly be called a rectifier or valve or diode. it could be prefaced with whatever particles were harvested for energy production E.G: "Pion diffusion diode" or virtual particle collector diode stack. The thing could be positied to mine the quantum foam for virtual electrons and trappingthem bewfore they can fade back into non existance. It would theoretically have infinite energy available for production.

IRL though such harvesting schemas uses the casimir effect to extract tiny virtually useless amounts of energy from the vacuum with tremendous effort to do even that. if the even succeeded in the first place.

ActiveX · « **Reply #33 on:** March 27, 2004, 09:21:14 pm »

I know the gravity drive is possible and even most probable, just need to be able to artificially influence mass...

An example I used to fling around would be to trick a deckplate into thinking it was much more massive and exert enough gravity to be able to stand on it in a 'zero gravity' environment...

If we could do that, there is nothing we can't do.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #34 on:** March 27, 2004, 09:35:13 pm »

There are a number of possibilities. Centrifugal forces, higgs bosons, gravitons, cosmological constant modification. GUT field manipulation. some centuries away from even seeing if they are possible. Some rather mundane. Some currently being experimented on. Podelkov (Spelling?) basically used superconductors spinning at ultra-high velocity to apparenly either mimick or synthesize gravity at a different vector than the earths or to partially nulify or shield against gravity. This is thought to be impossible by current understandings of physics. And thus far no one has replicated his results. Though the replication efforts have been criticised for not following his protocols, exactly and are being redone.

ActiveX · « **Reply #35 on:** March 27, 2004, 09:39:56 pm »

Centrifugal force is a misnomer, it isn't a force it is an effect...

Right now we have the Centrifugal Effect working on us, if we didn't, the gravity of the Earth would feel a lot more powerful...

I took enough of Physics in school to know that hehe...

Anyhow, I personally think that ultimately we will have to bend space to even get anywhere, because even gravity has it's limits...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #36 on:** March 27, 2004, 09:46:25 pm »

Really centrepital/centrifugal force may be a misnomer but it is the term commonly used for what keeps water in a bucket when swung around on a rope in a vertical axis.

ActiveX · « **Reply #37 on:** March 27, 2004, 09:53:27 pm »

I know, sort of like hacker...

Anyway it isnt the key...

The universe may well be expanding because of it, but so does time in correlating ratio that never sofar as we know waivers...

But all that matters is that perception changes hehe, if we perceive a journey taking 42 minutes it wont matter if it took 42 centuries...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #38 on:** March 27, 2004, 09:56:27 pm »

If you were delusional and could not percieve me beating you to death with a hammer. Would you upon the completion of my task, be alive?

ActiveX · « **Reply #39 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:03:58 pm »

For you it might only take seconds, but for me it might never end...

It really is a perception thing, it is documented with atomic clocks that you can literally lose seconds while flying at top speed in an SR-71, I imagine that one day hypersonic transports wont just fly at mach 12, they will make it seem shorter by just doing so...

Like let's say that a flight to Hong Kong from Istanbul would be 20 minutes via hypersonic transport, but an entire minute is shaved off just from going that fast, so while the ground control has you at 20 minutes of flight, you arrive a minute early...

Imagine the airlines capitalizing on that... hehe

Southwest, we get you there faster

Stormbringer · « **Reply #40 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:08:55 pm »

Not really perception there. It is relativity. Since an observer is involved I guess you could make the claim perception is involved like that but like your centrifugal correction it is not really accurate terminology. That aside; my mystical theories do hold that sort of place for perception and Will. An interesting experience I had during a deliberate attempt to percieve a condition that was unreal and to create that situation as real tends to back it up, -but that is a discussion not suited for this particular forum.

ActiveX · « **Reply #41 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:13:26 pm »

Hehe, either way it stacks up the same, if you are travelling to a system 400 lightyears away, you won't much care that you should have died last Tuesday...

I also think light speed is only impossible when you are immobile (

I know), but when you are actually attempting to go light speed you won't have that same realization...

It's like not knowing you are going 120 mph until you look at the speedo or are outside the vehicle...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #42 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:18:23 pm »

Light speed is constant. things like time passage, inertial mass and so forth are relative but a headlight on a car traveling at 99 percent of light speed is still just going off the car at light speed. they are not additive. an observer in one reference frame observes time at one rate. An observer in an outside reference frame percieves it at another but instruments back it up so it is not perception per se that is different. It is the data coming in that has changed.

ActiveX · « **Reply #43 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:24:08 pm »

And that is what the focus should be, why does the data change, and why do our calculations say light speed is impossible?

Maybe the key is to make light of ourselves.

Since photons cease to exist once they stop moving, there would have to be a way to stop it...

Essentially, we have to invent the transporter...

And IIRC, it already has been sofar as we can tell...what was it a proton that they moved from one atom to another instantly?

The thing that I don't get is why we can measure infinite...light speed is finite, and finite is surpassable...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #44 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:29:24 pm »

IIRC it was a photon. BTW photons can be "frozen" in a laser confinement system (like ghost busters.

)

ActiveX · « **Reply #45 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:31:20 pm »

But the photon is moving, just not in relation to the observer...

One other thing I don't seem to understand is why we have to settle for going lightspeed...

Why not just fold the damn universe in half and step across...much faster...

Or we could create some wormholes and play Stargate SG-1...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #46 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:40:09 pm »

Good topics!

Energy (or mass) is the currency needed to fold space. Trek's warp is just a spatial surf ride but it is folding space, -just not on such a large scale. Even treklike folding space requires more energy than the output of the sun. (and that may be putting it mildly) Still that sort ofthing can be done it is just a matter of time until we find the means to produce the energy needed or fid a way to finesse less energy into doing an equivelent thing.( I'd give this one a 20 percent there rating)

Wormholes. well we are capable of this just at a microscopic space scale and fleeting duration. Mind you there is a way theoretically to enlage wormholes from the quantum scale where they exist naturally and make them large enough to drive a ship through (or to walk through.) Once we demonstrate this in the lab then we need to work on how to ensure the other opening is near someplace we want to go. So this one is about 33% there.

SL-Punisher · « **Reply #47 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:42:05 pm »

Einstien only said it was impossible for a given object to approach the speed of light..of cours this doesn't apply to objects already traveling at the speed of light or faster.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #48 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:46:16 pm »

True. Tachyons (hypothetically speaking) escape the light speed limit in a number of ways and a careful examinations merely says inertial mass is infinite at light speed not after. In fact it reverses and becomes less the faster you go after passing through light speed. Quantum tunneling ( or something like it) could jump this barrier.

ActiveX · « **Reply #49 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:50:31 pm »

Well the thing is, why do we have to go lightspeed, if just turning into light would be more efficient and faster?

Assume for a minute that you could be decoded if you will into a beam of light and shot at say...the moon, and then recoded into your previous form?

This could go hand in hand with cloning, I once watched a show about time travel in that your memories were transported into your clone at the destination, and the original you had to be killed (literally). When you came back, a new clone was created where you started and your new memories are implanted in the new one...

It was a weird show, especially since a Velociraptor was the operator of the machine...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #50 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:50:49 pm »

Active, you got me thinking on the problem of navigating with worm holes. If I could create the macroscopic mouth of a worm hole at will and I could create them in such a way that the terminus was always a fixed distance and direction in front of the ship it would not mater if the worm hole were not very long. By creating them in series, I could create the effect of a continuous worm hole to my final destination. The time elapsed would be finite but a tiny tiny fraction of the time it would take to traverse normal space time.

ActiveX · « **Reply #51 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:58:00 pm »

I don't think wormholes will be much use for the frontier, but I see no reason we couldn't build a gate system as we expand...

Remember, communication is the downfall of any empire and stagnation happens when you can't order expansion...

If we can't talk to our frontiers in other systems, we can't even pretend that we are expanding...

So a wormhole transport system could double as a Verizon Stellarless comlink...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #52 on:** March 27, 2004, 11:06:04 pm »

Yes but remember we ar trying out the various proposed FTL like systems to see which is more "doable." The wormhole thing has the virtue of not taking as much energy (possibly) as the others and has a method for control of the endpoint. messages could be sent through them or by tachons or by stable quantum entangled digital code streams using huge puopulations of entangled particles to "communicate" with each other (by polarity switching) instantly. The multitude would prevent degradation of the signal due to unentaglement of some of the particles or other accidents. Most phyicists claim no info could actually be sent this way due to the fragile nature of entanglement. My massivly parrallel scheme should alleviate that concern.

ActiveX · « **Reply #53 on:** March 27, 2004, 11:07:59 pm »

If we have to we could just put a message in a frickin bottle...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #54 on:** March 27, 2004, 11:13:22 pm »

Let's continue tomorrow. I'm going to bed.

ActiveX · « **Reply #55 on:** March 27, 2004, 11:14:03 pm »

Hehe, night.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #56 on:** March 25, 2004, 05:01:16 pm »

Tangentially to my planetary construction thread the topic of warp drives and Zero Point Energy and other speculative science ideas has come up. To keep focused whilst still discussing these fascinating topics I decided to start another series of threads this one is for Si-Fi like or advanced propulsion systems and ancilliary or spin off technologies.

IOW we should discuss various schema for FTL and or reletavistic sublight spacefight. Everything from nuclear engines to dimensional travel and the proposed solutions or theories necessary for them to work. Advanced propulsion schemes are hardly exclusive to fiction. NASA itself has delved into nuclear fission, fusion, anti-matter, light sails, laser, and even anti-gravity propulsion. Some with actual hardware (Minerva, Nerva) some laboratory studies and some just conceptual studies.

And there is always the fringe science, basement scientists and even some outright k0oks which; established science aside, I find fascinating. It's all within the bounds of this discussion. Who shall go first?

Stormbringer · « **Reply #57 on:** March 26, 2004, 09:12:15 pm »

What -no one here is interested in speculating on the evolution of space propulsion technology on a space naval simulation web site where one's credentials are protected by relative anonymity? Afraid of looking silly? Buncha space wussies. You're scared. Scared!

Stormbringer · « **Reply #58 on:** March 27, 2004, 08:22:57 pm »

This is getting depressing, I'm having a conversation with myself again. NASA Daedelus design ? Icharus? MINERVA? NIRVA?

oes nobody know anything about these serious early attempts at advanced propulsion or design for spacecraft or propulsion?

ActiveX · « **Reply #59 on:** March 27, 2004, 08:45:01 pm »

I have several advanced propulsor designs running around my head...

Some are based on neutron diffusion (a bit farfetched) and another is a gravity drive (pulls or pushes stellar object to incite motion)...

I have loads, but no real theoretical science knowledge to base them on hehe...nother words Im not even a high school graduate...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #60 on:** March 27, 2004, 09:15:14 pm »

Thanks for responding anyways.

I was debating whether or not to delete my thread as it seems no one wished to do more than post political bicking threads. So lets talk about some of your ideas.

The best way to create a believable "specnology" is to acquaint one's self with science -even if just popularizations rather than in dept texts and to read sci'fi authors. BTW the gravity drive is not that far fetched. Podlekov's experiments are being redone for duplication purposes by NASA. There are cosmological theories that require a large scale antigravity force in the universe to explain it's behavior. And thats a whole discusion on it's own. Still, lets take one of your terms and toss it around to see if something can be made from it. Sort of the way a photon torpedo is called that instead of antimatter/ matter anhilation torpedo.

Neutrons are only stable inside a nucleus. Outside a nucleus they have a half life of 10 minutes whereupon they decay into other particles. how much energy does it take to remove nuetrons from a nucleus? isn't that called fission? if so what produces more energy the fission or the neutron decay? Is neutron decay what you had in mind in the term neutron diffusion? Diffusion, of course means the dispersal of something by random collision or kinetic activity inherent in the something or the medium. Which would imply neutrons dispercing from a state of higher density to one of lowwer density. That alone would not produce energy that could be used for propulsion or anything else. Now if you look for a chaotic system far from equilibrium involving nuetrons in some way then you might be able to get some energy by spontaneous self organisation or a temporary reversal ofthe thermodynamic entropy. (in a localized area.)

But there are other particles better suited to use in such a scheme as neutrons are hard to control being nuetral they cannot be guided by the things that make electrons and protons easy to manipulate. If you called it proton difusion and found a way to cause them to decay at a much faster rate than thier incredible theoretical half life then you might have something.

If you went with the chaotic entropy violation your generator would more correctly be called a rectifier or valve or diode. it could be prefaced with whatever particles were harvested for energy production E.G: "Pion diffusion diode" or virtual particle collector diode stack. The thing could be positied to mine the quantum foam for virtual electrons and trappingthem bewfore they can fade back into non existance. It would theoretically have infinite energy available for production.

IRL though such harvesting schemas uses the casimir effect to extract tiny virtually useless amounts of energy from the vacuum with tremendous effort to do even that. if the even succeeded in the first place.

ActiveX · « **Reply #61 on:** March 27, 2004, 09:21:14 pm »

I know the gravity drive is possible and even most probable, just need to be able to artificially influence mass...

An example I used to fling around would be to trick a deckplate into thinking it was much more massive and exert enough gravity to be able to stand on it in a 'zero gravity' environment...

If we could do that, there is nothing we can't do.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #62 on:** March 27, 2004, 09:35:13 pm »

There are a number of possibilities. Centrifugal forces, higgs bosons, gravitons, cosmological constant modification. GUT field manipulation. some centuries away from even seeing if they are possible. Some rather mundane. Some currently being experimented on. Podelkov (Spelling?) basically used superconductors spinning at ultra-high velocity to apparenly either mimick or synthesize gravity at a different vector than the earths or to partially nulify or shield against gravity. This is thought to be impossible by current understandings of physics. And thus far no one has replicated his results. Though the replication efforts have been criticised for not following his protocols, exactly and are being redone.

ActiveX · « **Reply #63 on:** March 27, 2004, 09:39:56 pm »

Centrifugal force is a misnomer, it isn't a force it is an effect...

Right now we have the Centrifugal Effect working on us, if we didn't, the gravity of the Earth would feel a lot more powerful...

I took enough of Physics in school to know that hehe...

Anyhow, I personally think that ultimately we will have to bend space to even get anywhere, because even gravity has it's limits...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #64 on:** March 27, 2004, 09:46:25 pm »

Really centrepital/centrifugal force may be a misnomer but it is the term commonly used for what keeps water in a bucket when swung around on a rope in a vertical axis.

ActiveX · « **Reply #65 on:** March 27, 2004, 09:53:27 pm »

I know, sort of like hacker...

Anyway it isnt the key...

The universe may well be expanding because of it, but so does time in correlating ratio that never sofar as we know waivers...

But all that matters is that perception changes hehe, if we perceive a journey taking 42 minutes it wont matter if it took 42 centuries...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #66 on:** March 27, 2004, 09:56:27 pm »

If you were delusional and could not percieve me beating you to death with a hammer. Would you upon the completion of my task, be alive?

ActiveX · « **Reply #67 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:03:58 pm »

For you it might only take seconds, but for me it might never end...

It really is a perception thing, it is documented with atomic clocks that you can literally lose seconds while flying at top speed in an SR-71, I imagine that one day hypersonic transports wont just fly at mach 12, they will make it seem shorter by just doing so...

Like let's say that a flight to Hong Kong from Istanbul would be 20 minutes via hypersonic transport, but an entire minute is shaved off just from going that fast, so while the ground control has you at 20 minutes of flight, you arrive a minute early...

Imagine the airlines capitalizing on that... hehe

Southwest, we get you there faster

Stormbringer · « **Reply #68 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:08:55 pm »

Not really perception there. It is relativity. Since an observer is involved I guess you could make the claim perception is involved like that but like your centrifugal correction it is not really accurate terminology. That aside; my mystical theories do hold that sort of place for perception and Will. An interesting experience I had during a deliberate attempt to percieve a condition that was unreal and to create that situation as real tends to back it up, -but that is a discussion not suited for this particular forum.

ActiveX · « **Reply #69 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:13:26 pm »

Hehe, either way it stacks up the same, if you are travelling to a system 400 lightyears away, you won't much care that you should have died last Tuesday...

I also think light speed is only impossible when you are immobile (

I know), but when you are actually attempting to go light speed you won't have that same realization...

It's like not knowing you are going 120 mph until you look at the speedo or are outside the vehicle...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #70 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:18:23 pm »

Light speed is constant. things like time passage, inertial mass and so forth are relative but a headlight on a car traveling at 99 percent of light speed is still just going off the car at light speed. they are not additive. an observer in one reference frame observes time at one rate. An observer in an outside reference frame percieves it at another but instruments back it up so it is not perception per se that is different. It is the data coming in that has changed.

ActiveX · « **Reply #71 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:24:08 pm »

And that is what the focus should be, why does the data change, and why do our calculations say light speed is impossible?

Maybe the key is to make light of ourselves.

Since photons cease to exist once they stop moving, there would have to be a way to stop it...

Essentially, we have to invent the transporter...

And IIRC, it already has been sofar as we can tell...what was it a proton that they moved from one atom to another instantly?

The thing that I don't get is why we can measure infinite...light speed is finite, and finite is surpassable...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #72 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:29:24 pm »

IIRC it was a photon. BTW photons can be "frozen" in a laser confinement system (like ghost busters.

)

ActiveX · « **Reply #73 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:31:20 pm »

But the photon is moving, just not in relation to the observer...

One other thing I don't seem to understand is why we have to settle for going lightspeed...

Why not just fold the damn universe in half and step across...much faster...

Or we could create some wormholes and play Stargate SG-1...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #74 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:40:09 pm »

Good topics!

Energy (or mass) is the currency needed to fold space. Trek's warp is just a spatial surf ride but it is folding space, -just not on such a large scale. Even treklike folding space requires more energy than the output of the sun. (and that may be putting it mildly) Still that sort ofthing can be done it is just a matter of time until we find the means to produce the energy needed or fid a way to finesse less energy into doing an equivelent thing.( I'd give this one a 20 percent there rating)

Wormholes. well we are capable of this just at a microscopic space scale and fleeting duration. Mind you there is a way theoretically to enlage wormholes from the quantum scale where they exist naturally and make them large enough to drive a ship through (or to walk through.) Once we demonstrate this in the lab then we need to work on how to ensure the other opening is near someplace we want to go. So this one is about 33% there.

SL-Punisher · « **Reply #75 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:42:05 pm »

Einstien only said it was impossible for a given object to approach the speed of light..of cours this doesn't apply to objects already traveling at the speed of light or faster.

Stormbringer · « **Reply #76 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:46:16 pm »

True. Tachyons (hypothetically speaking) escape the light speed limit in a number of ways and a careful examinations merely says inertial mass is infinite at light speed not after. In fact it reverses and becomes less the faster you go after passing through light speed. Quantum tunneling ( or something like it) could jump this barrier.

ActiveX · « **Reply #77 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:50:31 pm »

Well the thing is, why do we have to go lightspeed, if just turning into light would be more efficient and faster?

Assume for a minute that you could be decoded if you will into a beam of light and shot at say...the moon, and then recoded into your previous form?

This could go hand in hand with cloning, I once watched a show about time travel in that your memories were transported into your clone at the destination, and the original you had to be killed (literally). When you came back, a new clone was created where you started and your new memories are implanted in the new one...

It was a weird show, especially since a Velociraptor was the operator of the machine...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #78 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:50:49 pm »

Active, you got me thinking on the problem of navigating with worm holes. If I could create the macroscopic mouth of a worm hole at will and I could create them in such a way that the terminus was always a fixed distance and direction in front of the ship it would not mater if the worm hole were not very long. By creating them in series, I could create the effect of a continuous worm hole to my final destination. The time elapsed would be finite but a tiny tiny fraction of the time it would take to traverse normal space time.

ActiveX · « **Reply #79 on:** March 27, 2004, 10:58:00 pm »

I don't think wormholes will be much use for the frontier, but I see no reason we couldn't build a gate system as we expand...

Remember, communication is the downfall of any empire and stagnation happens when you can't order expansion...

If we can't talk to our frontiers in other systems, we can't even pretend that we are expanding...

So a wormhole transport system could double as a Verizon Stellarless comlink...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #80 on:** March 27, 2004, 11:06:04 pm »

Yes but remember we ar trying out the various proposed FTL like systems to see which is more "doable." The wormhole thing has the virtue of not taking as much energy (possibly) as the others and has a method for control of the endpoint. messages could be sent through them or by tachons or by stable quantum entangled digital code streams using huge puopulations of entangled particles to "communicate" with each other (by polarity switching) instantly. The multitude would prevent degradation of the signal due to unentaglement of some of the particles or other accidents. Most phyicists claim no info could actually be sent this way due to the fragile nature of entanglement. My massivly parrallel scheme should alleviate that concern.

ActiveX · « **Reply #81 on:** March 27, 2004, 11:07:59 pm »

If we have to we could just put a message in a frickin bottle...

Stormbringer · « **Reply #82 on:** March 27, 2004, 11:13:22 pm »

Let's continue tomorrow. I'm going to bed.

ActiveX · « **Reply #83 on:** March 27, 2004, 11:14:03 pm »

Hehe, night.

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Topic: Rapid space transport (Exotic or speculative technologies Thread) (Read 10680 times) var addthis_config = {"data_track_clickback":true};

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Topic: Rapid space transport (Exotic or speculative technologies Thread) (Read 10680 times)