Topic: op plus 3.3/lyrans/cheaper fighters

[TraumaTech]

heya firsoul,

             when you finally put op plus 3.3 out,is there anyway to make the lyran ships that carry the fighters any cheaper?if you read soem of the history about lyran pf's they were suppose to have been massed produced because they were suppose to be cheap,the cheapest from what i understand.the only time they are of any value is when you have already inflicted mass damage onto the enemy.for example,the lyrans have a lite cruiser that cost 192 i believe(sorry i don't remember type of ship)that comes with 4 pf's(ints) 5 phaser 1's 2 esg's and maybe a couple phaser 3's.other than in a campaign,why would i select this ship when it would so easily die against a c7,bcf,gorn bch ect ect.It doesn't have the hit power of the plasma chuckers,or hydrans hornet 2 or 3,or fighters that have mirv.If you jump from one fighter to the other,the capasitor usually is down to zip,so that esg's won't charge,this is also a prob if you go into a battle with a couple ai wings. and just another quickie question,why do soem of the ships i take(the 3.2 ones) not have any probes,especially when feds ships(some of them from 3.2) now come with 10 probes for a very cheap price??  

[J. Carney]

Know that I'm not Firesoul (not by a longshot, oh ye of the great team for the perpetuation of the dream of SFB on PC's) but maybe I can help.

Quote:
heya firsoul,

             when you finally put op plus 3.3 out,is there anyway to make the lyran ships that carry the fighters any cheaper?if you read soem of the history about lyran pf's they were suppose to have been massed produced because they were suppose to be cheap,the cheapest from what i understand.the only time they are of any value is when you have already inflicted mass damage onto the enemy.

That was their purpose, good sir. The PF's were just like the PT boats in WWII. They had only 2 jobs: 1.) to die gloriously while charging in on something 100 times their size and attempting to cripple it and 2.) clean-up work after a major strike, finishing off the guys that are already dying.

for example,the lyrans have a lite cruiser that cost 192 i believe(sorry i don't remember type of ship)that comes with 4 pf's(ints) 5 phaser 1's 2 esg's and maybe a couple phaser 3's.other than in a campaign,why would i select this ship when it would so easily die against a c7,bcf,gorn bch ect ect.It doesn't have the hit power of the plasma chuckers,or hydrans hornet 2 or 3,or fighters that have mirv.If you jump from one fighter to the other,the capasitor usually is down to zip,so that esg's won't charge,this is also a prob if you go into a battle with a couple ai wings. and just another quickie question,why do soem of the ships i take(the 3.2 ones) not have any probes,especially when feds ships(some of them from 3.2) now come with 10 probes for a very cheap price??  



Light cruisers were never ment to take on a battlecruiser or a dreadnaught. They were ment to stick and move, like a boxer; the dreads are punchers... they can take a beating and still dish it out. Tuning up a ship with a lot of extras unbalances the game. Find a program called ShipEdit and you can do these alterations yourself... just point and click style.

 (You play the ship that fits your fighting style as well as your budget will allow. If you have the BPV to get the BCH, get it. But I'll take the old King Vulture into combat with anything that's out there and it'll come out soaring. In online and SFB play, the ydran Ranger is my favorite. Big ships suck.)

[FireSoul]

I'm just sticking with the method Taldren has entered PFs and SFB data. I find it's pretty balanced as it is, persoanlly. 4 PFs can be nasty.  

BTW, can you tell me of which ship you're talking about? NPF?

[Age]

    Dose that mech link really work and is it in D2 and GW .I know what you are talking about J Carney these are small
 small put fast and manueverable ships .These are similiar the the PT boat used in the South Pacific WW2 like JFK
 cammanded.I think I might not install 3.2 untill FieSoul comes out with it.I did have it put need to do more updating
 on it so I uninstalled it and burned it to disk LOL that rymes  with crisp.I wwas just want to about that mech link
 anyhow.

   Let me know how it really works and Thanks  

[TraumaTech]

heya firesoul,my appoligise fro taking forever to get back here.i have been busey and then ultimately i forgot about this thread.here are examples of several ships but originally i was talking about the ldr-dpfwp @ 192 .a lite cruiser.while looking at all ships in the lite cruiser class,i noticed the lyran pfwp is 42 points less than the lyran one and appears to be idientical except the ldr ship comes with 5 phaser 1's,2esg's and 4 phaser g's  as opposed to the lyran pfwp at 150 bpv's with 2 phaser 1's 3 phaser 2's and 4 phaser 3's with 2 esg's.i like the phaser 1's on the ldr ship with the phaser g's but this seems to be very much higher in price for what you get vs the lyran counterpart.a 42 point diference.both come with 4 fighters


other ships   hdwp=189  jgpp =172<---this ship without fighters is 124,so why the big jump for the fighters,shouldn't it be only 164(my opinion less)   pfw=146  ldr-pfw=183 .i agree with them being basically cannon fodder as mentioned above,but they are way over priced and any advantage we have with them is lost due to the high price of the beast anything you could do for them in op plus 3.3 would eb greatly appreciated  ty

[TraumaTech]

re :never taking on(lite cruisers vs heavies) this is probably true but so often happens.i'll use the best example.a hydran lite cruiser with 8 or more fighters with hornet 2's or 3's.mind you i believe hydran fighters are the best in the game.but they can toast a bchp with some but not a lot of difficulty and do it for a very very cheap price

[Sten]

Something to remember about the Lyrans and PFs in general. There was an ecomonic price and a BPV price in SFB.

In OP the shiplist reflects the BPV price and in the D2 the Economic price comes into play.

The PFWP are not cruisers they are PF tenders. PF tenders were never supposed to go directly into battle but hang around the fringes supporting their PFs with EW. That can't happen in OP so you will have to make do when using these ships.

As for Lyran tactics ask Firesoul is the subject matter expert. You might try asking Hexx to get you into the Lyran board their is a bunch of stuff there.

Other than that just keep asking I am sure one of the active people will help you out sooner or later.

[FireSoul]

Quote:
heya firesoul,my appoligise fro taking forever to get back here.i have been busey and then ultimately i forgot about this thread.here are examples of several ships but originally i was talking about the ldr-dpfwp @ 192 .a lite cruiser.while looking at all ships in the lite cruiser class,i noticed the lyran pfwp is 42 points less than the lyran one and appears to be idientical except the ldr ship comes with 5 phaser 1's,2esg's and 4 phaser g's  as opposed to the lyran pfwp at 150 bpv's with 2 phaser 1's 3 phaser 2's and 4 phaser 3's with 2 esg's.i like the phaser 1's on the ldr ship with the phaser g's but this seems to be very much higher in price for what you get vs the lyran counterpart.a 42 point diference.both come with 4 fighters

Gotcha. The L-DPFWP was properly priced while the L-PFWP wasn't. That's been fixed. In fact, here are fixes I have just done (which will be in next release and beyond):
L-PFW -> 172 BPV
L-PFWP -> 181 BPV
L-PFT -> 122 BPV

... why is the PFW(P) so expensive you ask? Because it's got sensor channels. The previous BPVs wasn't taking that into account.

Quote:

other ships   hdwp=189  jgpp =172<---this ship without fighters is 124,so why the big jump for the fighters,shouldn't it be only 164(my opinion less)   pfw=146  ldr-pfw=183 .i agree with them being basically cannon fodder as mentioned above,but they are way over priced and any advantage we have with them is lost due to the high price of the beast anything you could do for them in op plus 3.3 would eb greatly appreciated  ty  

Those are special cases. The HDW and the JGP are very modular ships. To become an official PF Tender, they have to have certain requirements met which cost more BPV. Also, let's not forget that I add 10 BPV per Interceptor to the base cost of the ship.
ie:
L-JGP is 124 BPV
L-JPPP is 172 BPV but has 4 PFs. Without the PFs it would have been 132 BPV which is correct.



.. and finally.. a small explanation..
.. the game is based on BPV which is a value that means "how well a ship fights". When the cost of building the ship is higher, patrol scenarios specifically state that I should use the larger value. Hence, the PFWs are expensive...  and the PFs are expensive..  .. but everything balances out when you play it.

[Age]

  Hey FireSoul I would like to see some improvements on Federation and Klingon ships similiar to the shiplist I am making up.I could send you my shiplist as an attachment in an e-mail to get an Idea.I have incresed power by 5,inceased transorter by 3 and I gave the Klinks more cloaking photon firing ships FF,DD 2 times FX CLs3 times FX CAs 4 times FX cloaking cost five.I gave the Feds one rack except on CAD ships but one instead where they had two eg.F-GSC+ 3 times G onley one for hot key use aswell in CFS 4 times B with a 2 times A amd I have improved the photon arcs aswell.I am just trying to put a better balance on all the ships.They the people who put these ships together didn't have much time to think about it as this was rush jop for the publishers.
 I hope you consider this you do make good ships FireSoul if you sen what I have done this would realy improve the game put get settled in your new place when the painting is fineshed and everything is done then we look at this.    

[Pestalence]

Age.. Firesoul's shiplist is based off of the books for SFB.. he is making SFB accurate ships in accordance with the board game...

he's not inventing ships or making up stats or altering anything on a whim.. he is taking the source for Starfleet Command.... called Starfleet Battles (the game Starfleet Command game series is based off of), which is a table top gaming system and bringing the ships listed in the books into the PC game with as little alteration as possible (some alteration is needed to be compatible with the way SFC presents the ships).

no offense to you, but the ships you are modding and the changes you are making are not in any way similar to any ships in Starfleet Battles...

most people here want a game that closely resembles Starfleet Battles so that they can play the board game online in a realtime enviroment without havint to resort to flipping through several rules and books which takes hours to days to complete a battle...

Firesoul is taking the ships, putting them in  SFC (Starfleet Command) so it can more closely resemble Starfleet Battles ( SFB ), not to make a 3rd party mod to the game...

anyhow.. just thought I'd give a heads up.

Firesoul, my appologies for answering this post for you, but I was browsing the forum and couldn't resist...

if I statted anything incorrect, please correct me.

thanks
 

[FireSoul]

Nope.. That's basically it. I try not to invent anything, and when I am, it's an informed invention based on SFB, to try to emulate it better.

ie: MIRVs on non-X ships.

[Age]

  I know I thought this would spice it up a bit.I am just jealouse of those ships in no.3 or 4 I want ship like those for a D2 game.The board game was originally invented by a person in Abbotsford BC. and then sold to ADB.  

[Pestalence]

Age,

as I stated earlier

if you would like your shiplist hosted.. once you are finished.. I can put it on my web site for Download.. maybe someone will put it into a server just to see how all the races balance out to each other...

see adding racks of missles will put a disadvantage to Roms and Gorn... adding more power to Fed ships will allow them to become speed 25+ phaser boats and you need to consider that a Fed's primary weapon is the same as it's heavy weapon.. the Phaser.. Photons are for cracking shields.. the Feds true weapon for strength is it's numerous phasers.. take the PH 1 within range 8 does 4 pts damage.. a normal photon does 8 pts damage at range 8.. now a Fed ship generally has 6 PH 1's.. and can fire 1 time per turn.. a ship generally has 4 photon launchers and can fire 1 time every 2 turns... now without ECM or ECCM the damage would result as follows if all weapons hit :

PH 1 = 6 * 4 = 24 damage * 2 turns = 48 pts damage
Photon = 4 * 8 = 32 damage every 2 turns..

as such the Phasers do 16 more damage per every 2 turns or 8 points more per turn than a photon does..

so if in a match, you turn off Photons, you can apply the holding and charging power other systems, especially the engines...

now what you have is a speed 31 ship cranking out 48 damage every 2 turns which you just gave an extra 5 power to for supporting other systems such as ECM, ECCM, defensive tractors, sensors, transporters, shuttle conversion, probe recharging.. etc...

let's take the F-CA just for a moment..

power 32.. 1 point to move, 1 point to charge phasers, (not going to consider Photons) and a little over 4 points of internal power...

so we have you adding 5 power.. so now the F-CA has 37 power -4 for internal systems.. leaving 33 power... -6 for all PH 1's charging - speed 27..

so basically an OLD ship like the F-CC now just became a Med era cruiser instead of early as the ship can outrun Med missles now cranking out 48 damage every 2 turns at speed 27 without breaking a sweat... and most people cruise at speed 21.. and as such that puts 6 points of power into ECM...

how does this balance out to other races CA's?
 

[Age]

    I didn't do it to the early era ships like F-CA which as power 34 BTW and FCC not even FCC+ F-CAI and F-CB yes  

[TraumaTech]

heya firsoul,

             when you finally put op plus 3.3 out,is there anyway to make the lyran ships that carry the fighters any cheaper?if you read soem of the history about lyran pf's they were suppose to have been massed produced because they were suppose to be cheap,the cheapest from what i understand.the only time they are of any value is when you have already inflicted mass damage onto the enemy.for example,the lyrans have a lite cruiser that cost 192 i believe(sorry i don't remember type of ship)that comes with 4 pf's(ints) 5 phaser 1's 2 esg's and maybe a couple phaser 3's.other than in a campaign,why would i select this ship when it would so easily die against a c7,bcf,gorn bch ect ect.It doesn't have the hit power of the plasma chuckers,or hydrans hornet 2 or 3,or fighters that have mirv.If you jump from one fighter to the other,the capasitor usually is down to zip,so that esg's won't charge,this is also a prob if you go into a battle with a couple ai wings. and just another quickie question,why do soem of the ships i take(the 3.2 ones) not have any probes,especially when feds ships(some of them from 3.2) now come with 10 probes for a very cheap price??  

[J. Carney]

Know that I'm not Firesoul (not by a longshot, oh ye of the great team for the perpetuation of the dream of SFB on PC's) but maybe I can help.

Quote:
heya firsoul,

             when you finally put op plus 3.3 out,is there anyway to make the lyran ships that carry the fighters any cheaper?if you read soem of the history about lyran pf's they were suppose to have been massed produced because they were suppose to be cheap,the cheapest from what i understand.the only time they are of any value is when you have already inflicted mass damage onto the enemy.

That was their purpose, good sir. The PF's were just like the PT boats in WWII. They had only 2 jobs: 1.) to die gloriously while charging in on something 100 times their size and attempting to cripple it and 2.) clean-up work after a major strike, finishing off the guys that are already dying.

for example,the lyrans have a lite cruiser that cost 192 i believe(sorry i don't remember type of ship)that comes with 4 pf's(ints) 5 phaser 1's 2 esg's and maybe a couple phaser 3's.other than in a campaign,why would i select this ship when it would so easily die against a c7,bcf,gorn bch ect ect.It doesn't have the hit power of the plasma chuckers,or hydrans hornet 2 or 3,or fighters that have mirv.If you jump from one fighter to the other,the capasitor usually is down to zip,so that esg's won't charge,this is also a prob if you go into a battle with a couple ai wings. and just another quickie question,why do soem of the ships i take(the 3.2 ones) not have any probes,especially when feds ships(some of them from 3.2) now come with 10 probes for a very cheap price??  



Light cruisers were never ment to take on a battlecruiser or a dreadnaught. They were ment to stick and move, like a boxer; the dreads are punchers... they can take a beating and still dish it out. Tuning up a ship with a lot of extras unbalances the game. Find a program called ShipEdit and you can do these alterations yourself... just point and click style.

 (You play the ship that fits your fighting style as well as your budget will allow. If you have the BPV to get the BCH, get it. But I'll take the old King Vulture into combat with anything that's out there and it'll come out soaring. In online and SFB play, the ydran Ranger is my favorite. Big ships suck.)

[FireSoul]

I'm just sticking with the method Taldren has entered PFs and SFB data. I find it's pretty balanced as it is, persoanlly. 4 PFs can be nasty.  

BTW, can you tell me of which ship you're talking about? NPF?

[Age]

    Dose that mech link really work and is it in D2 and GW .I know what you are talking about J Carney these are small
 small put fast and manueverable ships .These are similiar the the PT boat used in the South Pacific WW2 like JFK
 cammanded.I think I might not install 3.2 untill FieSoul comes out with it.I did have it put need to do more updating
 on it so I uninstalled it and burned it to disk LOL that rymes  with crisp.I wwas just want to about that mech link
 anyhow.

   Let me know how it really works and Thanks  

[TraumaTech]

heya firesoul,my appoligise fro taking forever to get back here.i have been busey and then ultimately i forgot about this thread.here are examples of several ships but originally i was talking about the ldr-dpfwp @ 192 .a lite cruiser.while looking at all ships in the lite cruiser class,i noticed the lyran pfwp is 42 points less than the lyran one and appears to be idientical except the ldr ship comes with 5 phaser 1's,2esg's and 4 phaser g's  as opposed to the lyran pfwp at 150 bpv's with 2 phaser 1's 3 phaser 2's and 4 phaser 3's with 2 esg's.i like the phaser 1's on the ldr ship with the phaser g's but this seems to be very much higher in price for what you get vs the lyran counterpart.a 42 point diference.both come with 4 fighters


other ships   hdwp=189  jgpp =172<---this ship without fighters is 124,so why the big jump for the fighters,shouldn't it be only 164(my opinion less)   pfw=146  ldr-pfw=183 .i agree with them being basically cannon fodder as mentioned above,but they are way over priced and any advantage we have with them is lost due to the high price of the beast anything you could do for them in op plus 3.3 would eb greatly appreciated  ty

[TraumaTech]

re :never taking on(lite cruisers vs heavies) this is probably true but so often happens.i'll use the best example.a hydran lite cruiser with 8 or more fighters with hornet 2's or 3's.mind you i believe hydran fighters are the best in the game.but they can toast a bchp with some but not a lot of difficulty and do it for a very very cheap price

[Sten]

Something to remember about the Lyrans and PFs in general. There was an ecomonic price and a BPV price in SFB.

In OP the shiplist reflects the BPV price and in the D2 the Economic price comes into play.

The PFWP are not cruisers they are PF tenders. PF tenders were never supposed to go directly into battle but hang around the fringes supporting their PFs with EW. That can't happen in OP so you will have to make do when using these ships.

As for Lyran tactics ask Firesoul is the subject matter expert. You might try asking Hexx to get you into the Lyran board their is a bunch of stuff there.

Other than that just keep asking I am sure one of the active people will help you out sooner or later.

[FireSoul]

Quote:
heya firesoul,my appoligise fro taking forever to get back here.i have been busey and then ultimately i forgot about this thread.here are examples of several ships but originally i was talking about the ldr-dpfwp @ 192 .a lite cruiser.while looking at all ships in the lite cruiser class,i noticed the lyran pfwp is 42 points less than the lyran one and appears to be idientical except the ldr ship comes with 5 phaser 1's,2esg's and 4 phaser g's  as opposed to the lyran pfwp at 150 bpv's with 2 phaser 1's 3 phaser 2's and 4 phaser 3's with 2 esg's.i like the phaser 1's on the ldr ship with the phaser g's but this seems to be very much higher in price for what you get vs the lyran counterpart.a 42 point diference.both come with 4 fighters

Gotcha. The L-DPFWP was properly priced while the L-PFWP wasn't. That's been fixed. In fact, here are fixes I have just done (which will be in next release and beyond):
L-PFW -> 172 BPV
L-PFWP -> 181 BPV
L-PFT -> 122 BPV

... why is the PFW(P) so expensive you ask? Because it's got sensor channels. The previous BPVs wasn't taking that into account.

Quote:

other ships   hdwp=189  jgpp =172<---this ship without fighters is 124,so why the big jump for the fighters,shouldn't it be only 164(my opinion less)   pfw=146  ldr-pfw=183 .i agree with them being basically cannon fodder as mentioned above,but they are way over priced and any advantage we have with them is lost due to the high price of the beast anything you could do for them in op plus 3.3 would eb greatly appreciated  ty  

Those are special cases. The HDW and the JGP are very modular ships. To become an official PF Tender, they have to have certain requirements met which cost more BPV. Also, let's not forget that I add 10 BPV per Interceptor to the base cost of the ship.
ie:
L-JGP is 124 BPV
L-JPPP is 172 BPV but has 4 PFs. Without the PFs it would have been 132 BPV which is correct.



.. and finally.. a small explanation..
.. the game is based on BPV which is a value that means "how well a ship fights". When the cost of building the ship is higher, patrol scenarios specifically state that I should use the larger value. Hence, the PFWs are expensive...  and the PFs are expensive..  .. but everything balances out when you play it.

[Age]

  Hey FireSoul I would like to see some improvements on Federation and Klingon ships similiar to the shiplist I am making up.I could send you my shiplist as an attachment in an e-mail to get an Idea.I have incresed power by 5,inceased transorter by 3 and I gave the Klinks more cloaking photon firing ships FF,DD 2 times FX CLs3 times FX CAs 4 times FX cloaking cost five.I gave the Feds one rack except on CAD ships but one instead where they had two eg.F-GSC+ 3 times G onley one for hot key use aswell in CFS 4 times B with a 2 times A amd I have improved the photon arcs aswell.I am just trying to put a better balance on all the ships.They the people who put these ships together didn't have much time to think about it as this was rush jop for the publishers.
 I hope you consider this you do make good ships FireSoul if you sen what I have done this would realy improve the game put get settled in your new place when the painting is fineshed and everything is done then we look at this.    

[Pestalence]

Age.. Firesoul's shiplist is based off of the books for SFB.. he is making SFB accurate ships in accordance with the board game...

he's not inventing ships or making up stats or altering anything on a whim.. he is taking the source for Starfleet Command.... called Starfleet Battles (the game Starfleet Command game series is based off of), which is a table top gaming system and bringing the ships listed in the books into the PC game with as little alteration as possible (some alteration is needed to be compatible with the way SFC presents the ships).

no offense to you, but the ships you are modding and the changes you are making are not in any way similar to any ships in Starfleet Battles...

most people here want a game that closely resembles Starfleet Battles so that they can play the board game online in a realtime enviroment without havint to resort to flipping through several rules and books which takes hours to days to complete a battle...

Firesoul is taking the ships, putting them in  SFC (Starfleet Command) so it can more closely resemble Starfleet Battles ( SFB ), not to make a 3rd party mod to the game...

anyhow.. just thought I'd give a heads up.

Firesoul, my appologies for answering this post for you, but I was browsing the forum and couldn't resist...

if I statted anything incorrect, please correct me.

thanks
 

[FireSoul]

Nope.. That's basically it. I try not to invent anything, and when I am, it's an informed invention based on SFB, to try to emulate it better.

ie: MIRVs on non-X ships.

[Age]

  I know I thought this would spice it up a bit.I am just jealouse of those ships in no.3 or 4 I want ship like those for a D2 game.The board game was originally invented by a person in Abbotsford BC. and then sold to ADB.  

[Pestalence]

Age,

as I stated earlier

if you would like your shiplist hosted.. once you are finished.. I can put it on my web site for Download.. maybe someone will put it into a server just to see how all the races balance out to each other...

see adding racks of missles will put a disadvantage to Roms and Gorn... adding more power to Fed ships will allow them to become speed 25+ phaser boats and you need to consider that a Fed's primary weapon is the same as it's heavy weapon.. the Phaser.. Photons are for cracking shields.. the Feds true weapon for strength is it's numerous phasers.. take the PH 1 within range 8 does 4 pts damage.. a normal photon does 8 pts damage at range 8.. now a Fed ship generally has 6 PH 1's.. and can fire 1 time per turn.. a ship generally has 4 photon launchers and can fire 1 time every 2 turns... now without ECM or ECCM the damage would result as follows if all weapons hit :

PH 1 = 6 * 4 = 24 damage * 2 turns = 48 pts damage
Photon = 4 * 8 = 32 damage every 2 turns..

as such the Phasers do 16 more damage per every 2 turns or 8 points more per turn than a photon does..

so if in a match, you turn off Photons, you can apply the holding and charging power other systems, especially the engines...

now what you have is a speed 31 ship cranking out 48 damage every 2 turns which you just gave an extra 5 power to for supporting other systems such as ECM, ECCM, defensive tractors, sensors, transporters, shuttle conversion, probe recharging.. etc...

let's take the F-CA just for a moment..

power 32.. 1 point to move, 1 point to charge phasers, (not going to consider Photons) and a little over 4 points of internal power...

so we have you adding 5 power.. so now the F-CA has 37 power -4 for internal systems.. leaving 33 power... -6 for all PH 1's charging - speed 27..

so basically an OLD ship like the F-CC now just became a Med era cruiser instead of early as the ship can outrun Med missles now cranking out 48 damage every 2 turns at speed 27 without breaking a sweat... and most people cruise at speed 21.. and as such that puts 6 points of power into ECM...

how does this balance out to other races CA's?
 

[Age]

    I didn't do it to the early era ships like F-CA which as power 34 BTW and FCC not even FCC+ F-CAI and F-CB yes