Topic: Day of the Eagle: The Return of Herr Burt

[LongTooth]

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DieHard....


To a degree, you're right...previously, I think Feds, Klingons and Mirak HAD flown droners for mission speed purposes (even then, for differing internal reasons), however...with the advent of some of the ED missions, the continued use of drone bombardment ships (incredibly boring though it is) is due in large part, I think, to neccessity.  This is what I am meaning to say.

I don't fly them anymore and I never HAVE flown them much except during SFC2.NET 6.0, where I changed ships quite often, but used the D5D rather extensively.  As I said, I'd love it if my bretheren would go the same route, but many choose not to. Who can blame them?  Anyone else of any other race who can get their hands on one uses them.  

 I wonder what would happen if (with all due respect to my honorable Mirak friends) if all drone bombrdment ships were removed from the game and the Mirak were either given some new dog-fighters to compensate or they were removed as a playable race altogether (just once).  I wonder what new "imbalances" or cries of "cheese!" would arise?  If anyone thinks there wouldn't be any, then I have some beachfront property in Nogales, AZ to sell you.



 

The only time I was in a droner in ISDL was when the kzin had hexs in the middle of the map you cant take out rom dreads in a nebula in a M-DD or a M-MCC
Nothing to do with faster mission times most of the time I get the same mission times in a M-DD as I do in a drone ship

[KBF-Dogmatix]

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 One of of the things I hate about disruptors is the different size flavors...the smaller the size, the less the maximum range with Dis1s having only a maximum range of 10.

If it's any consolation, I'm too stupid to use proxies unless I'm attacking a starbase. A note on those range 10 dizzies. More than one person has won the SFB Fleet Captain's Tourney using them.  

Oh..I don't doubt it...just as I don't doubt there are a lot of people out there who are better captains than I am.  I just know you take a lot of damage in ED missions when trying to employ them.  Quite often, I find myself turning one or both off...because you just can't fly slow enough to charge them anyway...heheh.


 

[KBF-Dogmatix]

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The only time I was in a droner in ISDL was when the kzin had hexs in the middle of the map you cant take out rom dreads in a nebula in a M-DD or a M-MCC
Nothing to do with faster mission times most of the time I get the same mission times in a M-DD as I do in a drone ship  

Thats because an M-DD is basically a drone ship  

That's because, basically, almost all Kzin ships are drone ships...heheh.  It's their weapon, after all...heheh...


 

[Herr Burt]

<Reads sudden influx of posts>

<faints>

A few more bits of info:

*Yes, I'm going for SFB-style fighters.  Not to worry.  Those Rom and Gorn fighters are cool, but not as cool as you might first think they are.
* Remember, this is the Gorn, the Romulan, and the Eastern Federation fleets at war.  The Federation was already fully engaged on the Klingon
front and was caught rather flat-footed when the Romulans launched their "surprise" invasion.  I don't think drone-cheese is going to be a problem.
* The return of Father Bruce, eh?  Hmmmm....... gotta dig up some old photos.  

Happy Warmongering!

-Herr Burt
------------------------------------
Those who do not remember history are doomed never to be able to repeat it.

[LongTooth]

Yep utter cheese with a drone control of 6  
The DF is The droner granted the DD is the best ship to fly for a kzin till late imho (and in early is got to be close to the best DD in the game)
Klingons dont get a good ship(not counting escorts) till the D5 class ships come out imho

[LongTooth]

Cant have a dyna with out a drone flame war even if there are no drones in it (not counting feds as they are still in)

[LongTooth]

Its funny how many people seem to forget that the kzin main heavy weapon is drones
As far as I rember feds and klingons both get amd and G racks before kzin ships get them
Most people think that 6 (or in some case's more)drone racks is pure cheese(ok I tend to agree here)4 racks are droners
and 2 racks are a fair chlange
Might be why there is a decline in both klingon and kzin players

Well enough of all this Ill play as gorn (or rom if numbers are low)

[KBF-Dogmatix]

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Its funny how many people seem to forget that the kzin main heavy weapon is drones

<snip>

Yep..that's what I'm saying.  Expecting a Kzin to not field as many drone racks as he can is silly...unless, of course, he has been provided with a viable alternative (read: an new, D5-like dogfighter).


I'm going to go Rom.  I suspect they will be the underplayed side in this one.



 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

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Its funny how many people seem to forget that the kzin main heavy weapon is drones

<snip>

Yep..that's what I'm saying.  Expecting a Kzin to not field as many drone racks as he can is silly...unless, of course, he has been provided with a viable alternative (read: an new, D5-like dogfighter).

 

The Z- MCC already seems pretty Kick-ass and on par with the D5L.  Same amount of Phaser 1s, Dizzies, 2 more drones racks (which are Cs), same power, and a B turn mode.   Seems like an awsome dogfighter already.  

Designation: Z-MCC
BPV: 129
Crew: 43
Marines: 14
Shield 1: 36
Shield 2 & 6: 30
Shield 3 & 5: 24
Shield 4: 24
Total Shields: 168

Movement Cost: 0.67
Turn Mode: B
Total Warp Power: 24
Impulse Power: 4
Aux Power: 5
Total Engine Power: 28
Battery: 3

Transporters: 3
Tractors: 2
Mech Tractors:
Shuttles: 2
Fighters:

4x Disruptor 3
2x Missle Rack B
2x Missle Rack C
6x Phaser 1
2x ADD 6  

[Sartonius]

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In reading the description of the Fed CAD in the SFB rulebook, it states that there really was only 1 CAD in the whole fleet.  That means this ship should most definately be put into rarified status to the extreme.  

I was saying that since AOTK started.  Aside from that, when I fly Federation, I personally would rather have my photorps than rely on missiles.  You can try to dodge a torpedo, and you can try to jam a torpedo, but you bloody well can't OUTRUN or shoot down a photon torpedo. <g>
   

There's more to be desired than improved anti-cheese formula  The true weapon of the Romulans, the cloaking device, isn't quite implemented right.  People often downplay the effectiveness of the Condor and Praetor DNs, but the reality is, they're gigantic warbirds, capable of cloaking and still moving at a decent clip
(well, at least if you're not trying to energize all of your weapons at once anyways.  If they're already charged you're set.  Granted, most people forget you can turn off individual hardpoints, etc., but that's a different discussion).  I really like the CON+, for example.  Against the AI, and in a perfect world, vs. a player, a CON+ suddenly appearing out of nowhere in front of a CVA just long enough to deliver all of its torpedoes would leave a lasting impression, and it would hide again and the fighters wouldn't really be able to hit it as it ran away.  For Romulans plasma torpedoes, especially a lot of them simultaneously, ARE the weapons, and the phasers are nothing but long-range point defenses  Much the same argument can be made for Gorn ships except that Gorn can take a lot more internal hits before their ships break down so they can afford to take a few extra missile hits.

Or how about the fact that AI ships with fighters only ever carry level-1 patrol fighters?  Isn't there a way to fix that to make them more of a challenge??  The only AI-controlled enemy that ever launched fighters heavier than a level-1 patrol fighter was when I tried to attack a starbase with fighters in one player mode.

But I digress.

Since this is a game, and we can set the parameters of our role-playing scenario any way we wish, then we should definitely customize the shiplist to emphasize "normal" ships.  We need to think about the ships in terms of what they're meant to be used for.  The Federation would never deploy lots of bombardment ships on long-range patrol because they would run out of ammunition all of the time.  A better philosophy is heavier shields and lots of torpedoes for that.  (Now if they would just introduce aft torpedo arcs on more ships like the NCM...)  PFs that have more armaments than a heavy cruiser are also silly (and would be expensive and difficult to build).  What we should see the most of is ship designs that would be most practical for day-to-day fleet operations if they were really out there in the field.  If that means that certain technologies in a campaign are never implemented, so what?

We could pretend that the general war didn't start until 2276, and there was no ISC war.  Then the Federation would have primarily CAIs and not CBs, it wouldn't have implemented the CVS, etc, and most ships would have no missiles.  There wouldn't be any DNG/DNH ships for the empires and no BBs, except for maybe a single B10 for the Klingons.  There wouldn't be any DWs or FFBs, it would be NCLs.  No NCAs or NCDs.  The Romulans wouldn't be flying any old series ships any more as there would have been no need and they would have all been replaced with Sparrowhawk-class ships.  Their biggest assets would be the K7Rs they bought in the 60's and the handful of FHA's they had built.  The Klingons wouldn't have a D5 design at all because they would never have lost all their D7s in the war yet.  The Hydrans would probably have a fleet with fewer variants.  The possibilities go on and on.  

Just something to think about.

[LongTooth]

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Its funny how many people seem to forget that the kzin main heavy weapon is drones

<snip>

Yep..that's what I'm saying.  Expecting a Kzin to not field as many drone racks as he can is silly...unless, of course, he has been provided with a viable alternative (read: an new, D5-like dogfighter).

 

The Z- MCC already seems pretty Kick-ass and on par with the D5L.  Same amount of Phaser 1s, Dizzies, 2 more drones racks (which are Cs), same power, and a B turn mode.   Seems like an awsome dogfighter already.  

Designation: Z-MCC
BPV: 129
Crew: 43
Marines: 14
Shield 1: 36
Shield 2 & 6: 30
Shield 3 & 5: 24
Shield 4: 24
Total Shields: 168

Movement Cost: 0.67
Turn Mode: B
Total Warp Power: 24
Impulse Power: 4
Aux Power: 5
Total Engine Power: 28
Battery: 3

Transporters: 3
Tractors: 2
Mech Tractors:
Shuttles: 2
Fighters:

4x Disruptor 3
2x Missle Rack B
2x Missle Rack C
6x Phaser 1
2x ADD 6  

Mace I agree in most part it is a good dog fighter but the D5L dizzys are split our share the same hard point plus the D5L has improved dizzy arc's plus better sheilds
I would take the D5L over the MCC any day

Sorry if I seemed a little short with you (been up 24 hours strait and still counting )
Klingons and kzin ships in most part are on a par its when we fight non drone races thats where the trouble starts
Vc's were ment to blance out hex fliping it did to some degree
I dont like to see many new ships added some races need them some dont

But adding better ships than the stock ships meens most people will fly those better ships in stead of the stock(makes sence to fly the best ship you can )
I think it much better to add tweaks to ships keep them very small if there are too big you will get crys of cheese
Hex fliping is not so slow in the ED missions I can most of the time do them in just under 3 minutes in klingon or kzin ships

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Yes, DieHard...it is close, but the stock MCC has all disruptors on one hardpoint and I think FA firing arcs.  During AOTK, the ship was modified, if I recall correctly, to break up the dizzy hard point and expand the disruptor arcs.  I felt that was all fine and dandy except that the ship (and another one not too far different from it) retained all of its drone racks AND came out a few years before the D5L.  As a result, it became something BETTER than a D5L with these edits.  I was proposing that if it was going to be like a D5L, it should lose its C-racks.  If the racks were to be retained, then the disruptor arcs should have returned to FA...some sort of give and take.


Sometimes when I make my posts, I take it for granted that people are aware of certain things on which I base my opinions.  In this case, I assumed everyone was aware of the hardpoint issue as well as the midifications made to this ship for AOTK's shiplist.


That said, even the stock, original Taldren MCC is a decent boat, though I haven't flown on in probably over a year and a half, so my recollection on the ship's actual combat merits is sketchy at best.



 

[Herr Burt]

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That bit about having the Tholians but not letting them be a player race was a tease just for me wasn't it you Bastich!!!!

I want my dizzies!!!!!!  And you know how much i loved the Tholians in SFB!!!!    

But Chuut, I began designing this campaign as a gift for you!  I was convinced you'd feel right at home in a ship that had seeking weapons but had no dizzies.  

-Herr Burt the heckler  

[Karnak]

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Karnak,
For the "ISC Invasion" server, you and the concerned Feds are absolutly right.
Your approach is one way to resolve the problem with players in plasma PF tenders. It is a solution that will satisfy the majority, afterall the Rom/Gorn players are just a small minority. Well done.
On a related topic, the Hydrans are ahead of the curve on fighter issues, does that mean all other fighter using races should only have half complement of fighters on any carrier larger than a light cruiser...to be the same as for the PF races?
Do you need concerned Roms to help make that decision?
Oups, it is no longer just a minority of players that are impacted anymore, players who had broken fighters and have been told about racial flavors for almost 2 years.
Could not do that to the majority...have to look at the "bigger picture" right.
Good leaders must always choose to please the majority, hence their continuous sucessfull leadership.

Sorry about the sarcasm (it is my firts post ever with sarcasm...where is Cleaven?), what you are doing might be right, I did not even begin to evaluate it, I do not even know what the rest of the yard contains for each race, but the way you do it does not feel right. Since you are the admin on that one, it is certainly your prerogative to do so, leaving us with ours as players.

Good luck in your scuba diving class.  Diving is very fun, you will enjoy it....and for sharks do not worry, shiplist review council members are much worst.

Thanks

I think I got the shiplist about right based on the Rom/Gorn feedback.  
Thank you for your input.  

Please PM or email if you have any concerns and I promise the best impartial consideration I can humanely give.

[FatherTed]

First off, let me state for the record that we want it done right. So take your time.

Now then, with all of that positive reinforcement, WHEN THE HELL IS IT GOING TO START?!?! The natives are starting to get a little restless for a good server.    

[Fluf]

Doggy, because you didnt like us getting the better arcs on the MCC, we reverted the ship back to stock except for the dizzy split.  It still doesnt hold a candle to the D5L.  I wanted FAR and FAL arcs on it to give it a little better shot against the FLL and FRR arcs the D5L had, just to make up for the turn mode and shields.  And you know drones dont mean a thing in PvP hehe!

Its still a good ship though, and with the split arcs that were done on alot of our heavy and medium cruisers in early during AOTK, it offered our pilots something else to fly for a change.

[KBF-Dogmatix]

Fluffy...


You may beg to differ, of course, but I think this is an equitable way to go about it.  The hardpoint split is warranted and makes a decent ship much better (IMHO).  Drones may not mean that much in PvP (in many cases), they do mean something and they are certainly still available to the Mirak player. Take two drone racks off and put thew FAL/RAL arcs on if drones are meaningless in PvP, eh?    You still have the nice 12x drone control (D5L only has 6x) and that's something significant, I think.

I guess I just didn't see the fairness in splitting up the hardpoints, increasing the firing arcs AND retaining all four drone racks.  I may be among the minority on that point and I'd accept that, of course.


Refresh my memory...when does the MCC come out?


BTW...I'm totally in favor of seeing you're disruptor hardpoints split up.  I think that's a good move that should improve the viability of some already fairly nice ships...and some that just suck without the split.



 

[Kortez]

Doggy, I think Fluf is right.  The Mirak do not have much equivalent to the D5L or similar.  I think we could have used the better arcs without upsetting game balance, only improviing it.

As for the upcoming Herr Burt server i will fly Romulan.  Looking forward to learning SFC2 Roms!  Some good PvP should be on the way.  The server sounds exciiting.

 

[Herr Burt]

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First off, let me state for the record that we want it done right. So take your time.

Now then, with all of that positive reinforcement, WHEN THE HELL IS IT GOING TO START?!?! The natives are starting to get a little restless for a good server.    

Hiya, Father Bruce.  

Thanks for the postive reinforcement.

Real life has given me a real kick in the pants this last week (in a good way!) so progress has been slower than I originally expected.
I'll try and post some updates as things move along.  Right now, I'd say we are still looking at two weeks (minimum) before I am set to begin.
Also, someone else has agreed to do something *really* nice for me on the mission-front, so I'm really happy about that.  Hopefully,
everyone else will be too.

-Herr Burt