Topic: Was watching a old war film and have you ever notice

[TB613]

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The basic design remained the same regardless of what it was used for. Sterioscopic range finding for ships, or hand cranked ballastics computers for AAA role....those were basically add ons.

AAA crews often trained in the AT role and vice versa.  

The Wehrmacht Flak crews were trained in the AT role from at least May / June of 1940. Rommel employed them against the superior French armor particularly when  Le Clerc, de Gaulle, or one of the other forward thinking French commanders managed to round up enough armor to actually have some mass. The Luftwaffe crews probably had little or no training in the AT / HE role until very late in the war.

The AT crews would have had no training in the AA role since there gun was incapable of the required barrel elevation, they would have been trained to fight soft targets using HE ammo though.  

[IndyShark]

Just to be clear, the naval 88mm was not the same design as the land based variant. It was a completely different weapon.

[Khalee]

That every time the germans would fire off a gun no matter what kind a young soldier would ask whats that, old soldier would reply relax kid thats just a 88. If I didnt know any better I would think that was the only calaber of gun the germans ever made during the war. It just kinda stikes me a funny whenever one of the Movie GIs would say that. Because I do know the germans made more than just the 88 during the war

[Sirgod]

you know my friend, IF you keep posting About Firearms, You'll eventually Be lead to the dark side with Me, Mush, Bearslayer, GrimBeard...

Stephen The Dark Side Conservative.

[Khalee]

Whatever but do you think the government would let me keep a real 88 in fireing condition with shells ? I wouldnt use really I wouldnt, even tho the when planes take off and land they have to some times fly over my house, and they make too much noise when they do.

[Sirgod]

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Whatever but do you think the government would let me keep a real 88 in fireing condition with shells ? I wouldnt use really I wouldnt, even tho the when planes take off and land they have to some times fly over my house, and they make too much noise when they do.  

<makes note to self : Never ever fly to Kansas>

hehe, I doubt they would, But hey you never know.  How have you been BTW, I've been pretty much absent for about a week, and trying to catch up on everything.

Stephen

[SL-Punisher]

Sure you can, here in the US all it requires is a federal permit to have a functional artillery device. You can't shoot HE shells out of it, just inert solid shot projectiles.

[TheBigCheese]

What you can own a working artillery piece!!!!!!
and fire it!!!!!!
You yanks are all crazy  

(p.s. dont tell me you can also have working tanks thart can fire solid shot  )  

[SL-Punisher]

Sure, I know a fella in Arizona with a fully functional Sherman Tank. They don't make 47mm shells for the sucker anymore, but he fabricates his own inert solid shot. One of these days I'm gonna pay him a visit and shoot up something (Don't worry it won't be you

Thing is I believe the last crime comitted using a licensed machine gun was in 1934. People who want their Sherman tanks and machine guns for legal reasons go through our federal permit system for such weapons.

People who want them for illegal reasons do not.

Besides, what horrible thing could a sherman do that a piece of construction equipment couldn't do? (Do keep in mind I can install an armoured cockpit in a cat bulldozer to make it bulletproof like the sherman)

I'm not worried about the guy who wants a permit to buy a Sherman tank....I'm worried about the guy who buys an illegal Mac-10 from someones trunk.
 

[TheBigCheese]

imagine bowling for columbine in a sherman    

oh a sherman is 75mm/76mm shell

perhaps he owns a stuart?

[The Postman]

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imagine bowling for columbine in a sherman    

oh a sherman is 75mm/76mm shell

perhaps he owns a stuart?

.... or a Lee?  

[The Postman]

The Germans used the 88 as a "one size does everything" caliber. They mounted it on tanks, AA, anti tank and artillery. I would not be surprised if the Geman navy used in some fashion as well.  

[J. Carney]

I don't know about an 88, but I do have a copy of Shotgun News that has a German-built 105 for a shade over 7 Grand.  Not a bad investment, if you have the money and relevent permits to own...

 

[TheBigCheese]

Quote:

Quote:
imagine bowling for columbine in a sherman    

oh a sherman is 75mm/76mm shell

perhaps he owns a stuart?

.... or a Lee?  

nah with the Lee you'd get the 37mm turret and the 75mm low velocity front mount  

[TheBigCheese]

Quote:
The Germans used the 88 as a "one size does everything" caliber. They mounted it on tanks, AA, anti tank and artillery. I would not be surprised if the Geman navy used in some fashion as well.  

they did use it in the kriegsmarine, the 88mm had many different varieties the later versions in the Tiger 2 and the deadly jadgpather were higher velocity versions  

[IndyShark]

The 88mm Flak guns had a fearsome reputation and it was well deserved. The were designed as anti aircraft guns, but were great anti tank guns as welll and were used as artillery on occasion. The Allies had nothing ike it. While the Germans had a large number of different caliber weapons from domestic production and captured stocks, the characterization that everything shooting at you was an 88 is pretty accurate. If it is shooting at you, it seems like your worst nightmare! (an 88!). The same thing happened to tanks. Almost any tank the Allies encountered were Tiger tanks even though they were relatively rare. To be fair, the Mark IV had vertical armor like the Tiger, so I can understand how in the heat of combat mistakes can be made.  Mistaking a Panther for a Tiger requires a lot more imagination.

While the German Navy used the 88 to defend shore stations, they did not as a rule use the same weapon as the Army (Flak 18 or 36/37).  They had some navalized 88mm guns that could not shoot the same ammo and the Flak guns or Tigers. They also had some old WWI guns that were used in secondary roles.

 

[SL-Punisher]

Quote:
imagine bowling for columbine in a sherman    

oh a sherman is 75mm/76mm shell

perhaps he owns a stuart?

Yes, I was a bit drunk last night when I wrote that and I was thinking of the French S-35 / Char B-1bis. Rest assured I've spanked myself for that technical error. He ownes a Sherman.

[TB613]

Quote:
The 88mm Flak guns had a fearsome reputation and it was well deserved. The were designed as anti aircraft guns, but were great anti tank guns as welll and were used as artillery on occasion. The Allies had nothing ike it. While the Germans had a large number of different caliber weapons from domestic production and captured stocks, the characterization that everything shooting at you was an 88 is pretty accurate. If it is shooting at you, it seems like your worst nightmare! (an 88!). The same thing happened to tanks. Almost any tank the Allies encountered were Tiger tanks even though they were relatively rare. To be fair, the Mark IV had vertical armor like the Tiger, so I can understand how in the heat of combat mistakes can be made.  Mistaking a Panther for a Tiger requires a lot more imagination.

While the German Navy used the 88 to defend shore stations, they did not as a rule use the same weapon as the Army (Flak 18 or 36/37).  They had some navalized 88mm guns that could not shoot the same ammo and the Flak guns or Tigers. They also had some old WWI guns that were used in secondary roles.

   

The British 25 pounder had performance characteristics that were very simular to the German 88's however the British doctrine and field usage was extremely different. The Russian 76mm dual purpose "Crash-Boom" was another weapon with a well deserved reputation and only the PzKw V's & VI's were relatively immune to it unless it was well handled. The American "super" weapon was the .50 caliber MG and was the German infantryman's nightmare and was even found mounted on trucks. One of the things that would have fueled the everything is a Tiger / Panther belief was the fact that the 76mm gun used in the Sherman was an inferior weapon and even had some trouble penetrating the armor of the PzKw IV's. While the later 75mm was much better with performance equal to the German 75 and the Russian 76 the Sherman's reputation was already beyond repair.

The naval 88's were used in a different environment and were not suppled with the same ammo as was used on land. In naval usage the amor piercing shell was still an explosive round whereas the version used on land was solid shot  

[IndyShark]

Naval 88's were not the same gun as the land based weapons. The guns had the same caliber, but different ammo, velocity and firing platform.  

Check out U-boat.net to see more about the weapons used by the Navy.  

[TB613]

Quote:
Naval 88's were not the same gun as the land based weapons. The guns had the same caliber, but different ammo, velocity and firing platform.  

Check out U-boat.net to see more about the weapons used by the Navy.  

I was not trying to imply that all 88's were identical, I was getting ready to leave for work and was not clear. Although the 88 was one of the few true cross service weapons in the German arsenal there were differences even between the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe Flak 88's because of the differing missions. The extreme environment that the Kriegsmarine 88's lived in would have required many changes just for that, plus the different type of mount and ammo because of the U boats mission and you have an entirely different weapon from the same starting point. The 88 as used on the German light cruisers was once again a totally different animal from the U-boats being somewhat simular to the Wehrmachts in having anti-air as its primary mission whereas the U-boats 88 had a primary mission of anti-surface specifically against very lightly armored or unarmored targets and I believe no secondary mission.