Topic: Something about balancing issues in SFC3  (Read 2553 times)

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Fusili

  • Guest
Something about balancing issues in SFC3
« on: February 18, 2004, 08:13:35 pm »
I am writing about balancing issues in SFC 3,(i saw the list of fixes in the final version of the patch but they didnt even mention sth. about balance issues).
Well here i start:
1)a]I am going to say sth about in balance for Federation and other races:
Ok first about the shields lets see shield-X has 32 strenght,and weights 8000 mass and sucks 10.67 power,and Borg class V-armor that weights 3000 mass sucks zero power has 250 strenght,the mass is almost as federation shield-VI which has 14 strenght and on top it sucks power,federation with 4 Shields-X and level V-armor can have (if you reinforce a shield) on one place 178 strenght(for that it is required a mass weight of 35000 and power cost of 42.68)that alone is heavy as default nebula class,and it is still much weaker then Borg armor,and Borg dont need to worry about reinforcing their shields.But what about other races? Well Romulans and Klingons dont need that much protection because the cloaking device bails them out big time,simply cloak, leave,return with charged weapons and slash.If yours and his officers are of the same skill level it will be very difficult for you to descover him with yours anti-cloak,especially if he goes very slow on impulse,and probes have a small persentage of finding cloak ships as well.
b]About wapons:Federaton has very little arcs pointing forward,and lots of arcs are on the side so in order to utilise them you need strong thrusters to be able to bring your charged arcs at your enemy very quickly,but no you are too massive,remember the 35000 weight of your defensive equipment,and the power requirements for it,so what do you need a bigger warp core for more power,and additional mass,so that doesnt leave you with much to go,but with warp core-IX you can implement a level IX-thrusters on Sovereign,but with all that it turns again way too slow,you still need additional mass for your weapons,computer,transporter,tractor beam.
Second problem is insufficient damage,federations quantum torpedo does 13 damage,has 300 mass and sucks 10 power,well for 2 less power cost and 50 less mass you can mount an Ion cannon on klingon ship and it regenerates as same as quantum,well it loses some damage proportional with targets distance but since you can cloak you can come very close to your enemy and discharge it,i know i would trade quantum for Ion in a second.And other thing, i manage to mount on a sphere prime 4 Medium-F cutting beam and 2 Heavy-F beams,6 gravimetric torpedoes,with all that i implemented level IX-warp core,and was still overpowered,with all that i manage to achive (with legendary officers)an astounding turn rate of 1.20,the thing is turning so fast that it seems that it fires all the time,whereas i tried to mount same number of phasers with same damage on a Sovereign,phaser -XIF have the same damage as medium cutting beam F,then i put 2 XIIF phasers(they dont do as much damage as Heavy-F cutting b) and went to heavy weapons,there was quite a shock,with all those primary weapon i manage to put 4 PHOTON torpedoes,and heres the result i was underpowered,was making less damage,and got lousy turn rate.
After i realised that i kept tracks of the battles over the net play(D3,gamespy).In D3 lots of people use federation,and win because thers too much of them,but they are never confronting another players,just AI,on gamespy almost noone uses federation ships,and if they do 80% they lose,not because they are bad players.When we play 3 vs 3 and someone on the opposit side uses federation,do you know what is the first sentence that fleet leader will say?Well the sentence  is:"Everyone on the Federation 1st",it is a good tactic to destroy weaker opponent 1st.So after all that i concluded that Federation is slightly non ballanced,everyting i wrote didnt just came over night,i played lots of battles with my friends,people over the net,and always
payed close attention on who is using wich race,wich ship,battle outcome,and so on.Dont miss understand me,i am not some federation lover that wants to see federation to be the stronges.i use all the races and dont prefer a single one,but federation is the weakest,so i rated the races:
1)The Borg
2)Klingon/Romulan(they are in perfect balance with each other,and still can take on the borg with sound tactics)
3)Federation
So i concluded that there should be some balancing to do,i dont want Federation to be the strongest,but well balanced with other races,what i think you should do is to improve their thrusters,or drop mass on some equipment,or make their warp cores generate more power so it is possible to implement level VIII warp core and still be able to maintain decent power level,so that will leave enough room for bigger thrusters.At least improve thrusters,because other races can compensate their lack of mobility with cloaking device(R,K),and without shields borg are able to have excelent turning rate.
I am sorry this was so long,but its like i said this wasnt written over  night.Thank you for your time.  
« Last Edit: February 18, 2004, 08:14:51 pm by Fusili »

Lieutenant_Q

  • Guest
Re: Something about balancing issues in SFC3
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2004, 11:33:23 pm »
If anything, i think the Borg are too weak, that 250 armor strength you mention, its for all sides.  The Armor doesnt last long, and a Borg is constantly vunerable to H&Rs.
In the 1.01 Beta patch, my only complaint with normal race balancing (the Borg are a totally different story) is that Romulan Plasma Torpedoes, when vollied will almost destroy anything less than a Heavy Cruiser.  In one-on-one skirmishes, the Feds are only at a disadvantage when facing a Romulan mounting Medium Plasmas or bigger.  Klingons and Romulans can counter the Romulan plasma torps by cloaking when they are not shooting, a skilled player knows when to cloak and when not too, but the Fed player has to sit there and take it.  That and the fact that its seems like only the Romulans can Volley is the only issues I have with the beta patch.  
Now if you want to go to balanced, try out either the Unity Mod, Generations at War Mod, or The Dominion War Mod.  All three have made substantial changes to the game with their mod.  I have played all three, although its been a whiile since i played the Dominion War mod.  I have nothing but praise for all three of them and their makers, and of course Taldren working as hard as they can so we can eventually see a finished product, they are the people we can turn to until Activision finally gets their heads handed to them by Viacom.

As for the Borg issues, they should NOT have been playable in the game from the start, I think the Borg should have been left as an AI only race, trying to balance them for gameplay was worse than what Voyager did to them.  Borg ships should have strong armor AND strong shields, but you cant do that without imbalancing the game.  However to bring the borg up to par with the other races, they should be given room to mount a B-Shield I, just enough to keep the transporters and the system snipers away.  Besides, the Cardassians would have made a good fourth race, or even the Dominion.  

Pestalence

  • Guest
Re: Something about balancing issues in SFC3
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2004, 06:48:43 am »
The Borg does have shields, you can enable them in the Shield.gf file in the SFC 3\Assets\CommonSettings game folder...

as for weapon strength, same folder under weapon systems...

the nice thing about this game is that it is very moddable... players can adjust it any way that they want (with exception of adding weapons to the game), grab a server kit, and throw it online..

About balance on the Borg.. those ships by DESIGN are suppose to be srtonger and tougher than the other race ships, thus is not a balance issue.. with exception of transporter attacks on warp core. an Issue which programmer David Ferrell has addresses in newer builds of the patch .. Search Dynaverse 3 Forum for listing of upcoming fixes.

The game is not perfect, but it has come a long way since it's initial release...

Hope that this helps some.
 

Fusili

  • Guest
Re: Something about balancing issues in SFC3
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2004, 07:00:46 am »
Thx for your advices,but mods are like 300 Mb wich is way to much for my 56K modem,you said that the Borg are made stronger intentinally but i saw a post once complaining about sth,and the official Taldren responce was:"One again i must remind you that this game is based on SFB ruls,and ships are only visually from TNG",with that in mind i think that they need to be tuned down a bit,and for the armor 250 is not weak,like i said you can have 178 defencive power if you reinforce a shield on one side,the Borg dont need to worry about that,and reinforcing shield has a significant delay that is too big.Do you maybe think that they will do sth about that?  

Pestalence

  • Guest
Re: Something about balancing issues in SFC3
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2004, 07:36:16 am »
SFC III is not based off SFB rules.. it uses some components from previous SFC titles that are representative of SFB, however SFC 3 is based on TNG .. more specifically the Pre Nemisis movie timeline.. just before Nemisis happened....

Some of the game functions was derived from the OP game engine, however the interaction of ships was to mirror TNG, not SFB.. although the systems seem similar...

the SFC OP  game engine for SFB Rules was used, modified, and somewhat rewritten to accomodate TNG for SFC 3.. thus removing many SFB rules out of the game engine... thus making a different game than the SFB based ones... SFC OP is much more difficult than SFC 3 in out of box condition.. especially with the micromanagement...

SFC 3 can get more intense using mods and adjusted weapons and such.. but overall the experience is less in depth.. In OP, you are the captain managing every aspect of your ship with several options to choose from...

SFC 3 is basically the same thing, however several options were removed in favor of manual ship equipment upgrades and tactical warp.. in order to allow the player to concentrate more on the enemy ship instead of his control console...

the interaction for weapons and the rules that they follow are not the same.. SFC 3 barely follows any SFB rules at all.. yes it does have some and it was built on a base of a SFB based game, but the rules are different to previous versions... SFC, SFC II : EAW, SFC II : OP.. SFB based games.. SFC 3 : TNG ..  TNG : Pre-Nemisis based game...

hope that this makes sence..
 

Fusili

  • Guest
Re: Something about balancing issues in SFC3
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2004, 12:32:09 pm »
Thx,for your time,and this great responce,but because there are so many mods out there proves that the game needs balancing which was given by mods,on D3 no one even plays standard SFC3 anymore,only mods,but never then less Federation is just sitting duck compared to other races,so the real question that i am asking is.Is Taldren aware of that? And do they intend to do sth about it,thx very much for your replyes,it was much more than i was hoping for,respect to you and Taldren,SFC3 is THE BEST SFC game evere(to me).  

Pestalence

  • Guest
Re: Something about balancing issues in SFC3
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2004, 02:48:33 pm »
Here are the weapons charts as created by David Ferrell vor the v500 patch


Heavy Weapons :

http://forums.taldren.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=31453&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1


Primary weapons :

http://forums.taldren.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=31458&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

the problem people complain about and reason they make mods is not balance issues..

it is game content.. they feel that the stock game was lacking ships, races, enemies, AI, weapon flavor.. etc. which is why they started creating mods...

also certain mods contain Unreleased Test Builds for use on the specific server it was made for.... Servers like Dom Wars and Galaxies at War use Test Builds.. and those builds should not be use anywhere other than single player or the server in which it was created for (read the non Disclosure Agreement and rules listed on the mod sites and in the Mod's readme files and in the agreements in the installers), as the game builds are not releases, but tests for the server kits.. Taldren needed to make a broader test range in order to find server side issues...

if you decide to get one of these mods.. do not post the game version number if it is higher than v500... the version is found on the lower right hand side of the splash screen... just remember v500 is the only version patch you can mention by build number anywhere on the net..

hope that this helps..


 

Fusili

  • Guest
Something about balancing issues in SFC3
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2004, 08:13:35 pm »
I am writing about balancing issues in SFC 3,(i saw the list of fixes in the final version of the patch but they didnt even mention sth. about balance issues).
Well here i start:
1)a]I am going to say sth about in balance for Federation and other races:
Ok first about the shields lets see shield-X has 32 strenght,and weights 8000 mass and sucks 10.67 power,and Borg class V-armor that weights 3000 mass sucks zero power has 250 strenght,the mass is almost as federation shield-VI which has 14 strenght and on top it sucks power,federation with 4 Shields-X and level V-armor can have (if you reinforce a shield) on one place 178 strenght(for that it is required a mass weight of 35000 and power cost of 42.68)that alone is heavy as default nebula class,and it is still much weaker then Borg armor,and Borg dont need to worry about reinforcing their shields.But what about other races? Well Romulans and Klingons dont need that much protection because the cloaking device bails them out big time,simply cloak, leave,return with charged weapons and slash.If yours and his officers are of the same skill level it will be very difficult for you to descover him with yours anti-cloak,especially if he goes very slow on impulse,and probes have a small persentage of finding cloak ships as well.
b]About wapons:Federaton has very little arcs pointing forward,and lots of arcs are on the side so in order to utilise them you need strong thrusters to be able to bring your charged arcs at your enemy very quickly,but no you are too massive,remember the 35000 weight of your defensive equipment,and the power requirements for it,so what do you need a bigger warp core for more power,and additional mass,so that doesnt leave you with much to go,but with warp core-IX you can implement a level IX-thrusters on Sovereign,but with all that it turns again way too slow,you still need additional mass for your weapons,computer,transporter,tractor beam.
Second problem is insufficient damage,federations quantum torpedo does 13 damage,has 300 mass and sucks 10 power,well for 2 less power cost and 50 less mass you can mount an Ion cannon on klingon ship and it regenerates as same as quantum,well it loses some damage proportional with targets distance but since you can cloak you can come very close to your enemy and discharge it,i know i would trade quantum for Ion in a second.And other thing, i manage to mount on a sphere prime 4 Medium-F cutting beam and 2 Heavy-F beams,6 gravimetric torpedoes,with all that i implemented level IX-warp core,and was still overpowered,with all that i manage to achive (with legendary officers)an astounding turn rate of 1.20,the thing is turning so fast that it seems that it fires all the time,whereas i tried to mount same number of phasers with same damage on a Sovereign,phaser -XIF have the same damage as medium cutting beam F,then i put 2 XIIF phasers(they dont do as much damage as Heavy-F cutting b) and went to heavy weapons,there was quite a shock,with all those primary weapon i manage to put 4 PHOTON torpedoes,and heres the result i was underpowered,was making less damage,and got lousy turn rate.
After i realised that i kept tracks of the battles over the net play(D3,gamespy).In D3 lots of people use federation,and win because thers too much of them,but they are never confronting another players,just AI,on gamespy almost noone uses federation ships,and if they do 80% they lose,not because they are bad players.When we play 3 vs 3 and someone on the opposit side uses federation,do you know what is the first sentence that fleet leader will say?Well the sentence  is:"Everyone on the Federation 1st",it is a good tactic to destroy weaker opponent 1st.So after all that i concluded that Federation is slightly non ballanced,everyting i wrote didnt just came over night,i played lots of battles with my friends,people over the net,and always
payed close attention on who is using wich race,wich ship,battle outcome,and so on.Dont miss understand me,i am not some federation lover that wants to see federation to be the stronges.i use all the races and dont prefer a single one,but federation is the weakest,so i rated the races:
1)The Borg
2)Klingon/Romulan(they are in perfect balance with each other,and still can take on the borg with sound tactics)
3)Federation
So i concluded that there should be some balancing to do,i dont want Federation to be the strongest,but well balanced with other races,what i think you should do is to improve their thrusters,or drop mass on some equipment,or make their warp cores generate more power so it is possible to implement level VIII warp core and still be able to maintain decent power level,so that will leave enough room for bigger thrusters.At least improve thrusters,because other races can compensate their lack of mobility with cloaking device(R,K),and without shields borg are able to have excelent turning rate.
I am sorry this was so long,but its like i said this wasnt written over  night.Thank you for your time.  
« Last Edit: February 18, 2004, 08:14:51 pm by Fusili »

Lieutenant_Q

  • Guest
Re: Something about balancing issues in SFC3
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2004, 11:33:23 pm »
If anything, i think the Borg are too weak, that 250 armor strength you mention, its for all sides.  The Armor doesnt last long, and a Borg is constantly vunerable to H&Rs.
In the 1.01 Beta patch, my only complaint with normal race balancing (the Borg are a totally different story) is that Romulan Plasma Torpedoes, when vollied will almost destroy anything less than a Heavy Cruiser.  In one-on-one skirmishes, the Feds are only at a disadvantage when facing a Romulan mounting Medium Plasmas or bigger.  Klingons and Romulans can counter the Romulan plasma torps by cloaking when they are not shooting, a skilled player knows when to cloak and when not too, but the Fed player has to sit there and take it.  That and the fact that its seems like only the Romulans can Volley is the only issues I have with the beta patch.  
Now if you want to go to balanced, try out either the Unity Mod, Generations at War Mod, or The Dominion War Mod.  All three have made substantial changes to the game with their mod.  I have played all three, although its been a whiile since i played the Dominion War mod.  I have nothing but praise for all three of them and their makers, and of course Taldren working as hard as they can so we can eventually see a finished product, they are the people we can turn to until Activision finally gets their heads handed to them by Viacom.

As for the Borg issues, they should NOT have been playable in the game from the start, I think the Borg should have been left as an AI only race, trying to balance them for gameplay was worse than what Voyager did to them.  Borg ships should have strong armor AND strong shields, but you cant do that without imbalancing the game.  However to bring the borg up to par with the other races, they should be given room to mount a B-Shield I, just enough to keep the transporters and the system snipers away.  Besides, the Cardassians would have made a good fourth race, or even the Dominion.  

Pestalence

  • Guest
Re: Something about balancing issues in SFC3
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2004, 06:48:43 am »
The Borg does have shields, you can enable them in the Shield.gf file in the SFC 3\Assets\CommonSettings game folder...

as for weapon strength, same folder under weapon systems...

the nice thing about this game is that it is very moddable... players can adjust it any way that they want (with exception of adding weapons to the game), grab a server kit, and throw it online..

About balance on the Borg.. those ships by DESIGN are suppose to be srtonger and tougher than the other race ships, thus is not a balance issue.. with exception of transporter attacks on warp core. an Issue which programmer David Ferrell has addresses in newer builds of the patch .. Search Dynaverse 3 Forum for listing of upcoming fixes.

The game is not perfect, but it has come a long way since it's initial release...

Hope that this helps some.
 

Fusili

  • Guest
Re: Something about balancing issues in SFC3
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2004, 07:00:46 am »
Thx for your advices,but mods are like 300 Mb wich is way to much for my 56K modem,you said that the Borg are made stronger intentinally but i saw a post once complaining about sth,and the official Taldren responce was:"One again i must remind you that this game is based on SFB ruls,and ships are only visually from TNG",with that in mind i think that they need to be tuned down a bit,and for the armor 250 is not weak,like i said you can have 178 defencive power if you reinforce a shield on one side,the Borg dont need to worry about that,and reinforcing shield has a significant delay that is too big.Do you maybe think that they will do sth about that?  

Pestalence

  • Guest
Re: Something about balancing issues in SFC3
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2004, 07:36:16 am »
SFC III is not based off SFB rules.. it uses some components from previous SFC titles that are representative of SFB, however SFC 3 is based on TNG .. more specifically the Pre Nemisis movie timeline.. just before Nemisis happened....

Some of the game functions was derived from the OP game engine, however the interaction of ships was to mirror TNG, not SFB.. although the systems seem similar...

the SFC OP  game engine for SFB Rules was used, modified, and somewhat rewritten to accomodate TNG for SFC 3.. thus removing many SFB rules out of the game engine... thus making a different game than the SFB based ones... SFC OP is much more difficult than SFC 3 in out of box condition.. especially with the micromanagement...

SFC 3 can get more intense using mods and adjusted weapons and such.. but overall the experience is less in depth.. In OP, you are the captain managing every aspect of your ship with several options to choose from...

SFC 3 is basically the same thing, however several options were removed in favor of manual ship equipment upgrades and tactical warp.. in order to allow the player to concentrate more on the enemy ship instead of his control console...

the interaction for weapons and the rules that they follow are not the same.. SFC 3 barely follows any SFB rules at all.. yes it does have some and it was built on a base of a SFB based game, but the rules are different to previous versions... SFC, SFC II : EAW, SFC II : OP.. SFB based games.. SFC 3 : TNG ..  TNG : Pre-Nemisis based game...

hope that this makes sence..
 

Fusili

  • Guest
Re: Something about balancing issues in SFC3
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2004, 12:32:09 pm »
Thx,for your time,and this great responce,but because there are so many mods out there proves that the game needs balancing which was given by mods,on D3 no one even plays standard SFC3 anymore,only mods,but never then less Federation is just sitting duck compared to other races,so the real question that i am asking is.Is Taldren aware of that? And do they intend to do sth about it,thx very much for your replyes,it was much more than i was hoping for,respect to you and Taldren,SFC3 is THE BEST SFC game evere(to me).  

Pestalence

  • Guest
Re: Something about balancing issues in SFC3
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2004, 02:48:33 pm »
Here are the weapons charts as created by David Ferrell vor the v500 patch


Heavy Weapons :

http://forums.taldren.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=31453&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1


Primary weapons :

http://forums.taldren.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=31458&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

the problem people complain about and reason they make mods is not balance issues..

it is game content.. they feel that the stock game was lacking ships, races, enemies, AI, weapon flavor.. etc. which is why they started creating mods...

also certain mods contain Unreleased Test Builds for use on the specific server it was made for.... Servers like Dom Wars and Galaxies at War use Test Builds.. and those builds should not be use anywhere other than single player or the server in which it was created for (read the non Disclosure Agreement and rules listed on the mod sites and in the Mod's readme files and in the agreements in the installers), as the game builds are not releases, but tests for the server kits.. Taldren needed to make a broader test range in order to find server side issues...

if you decide to get one of these mods.. do not post the game version number if it is higher than v500... the version is found on the lower right hand side of the splash screen... just remember v500 is the only version patch you can mention by build number anywhere on the net..

hope that this helps..