Topic: Why don't the larger Klingon ships cloak?

[Lieutenant_Q]

Cyberhank, your point about being at warp during the Enterprise encounter is correct, V'Ger was at warp until they entered the Terran system, and being so big it is possible that the Amar just wasn't fast enough.  In the movie they went straight in, (we wouldnt have been able to see V'Ger's ship at all had they gone around), in the book however i dont know, i never did finish it. (and i doubt i could find it now)

Perhaps they should have cloaked and killed the power, but since we dont know how the battle was oriented, (we dont know if V'ger was facing the Klingons or not) it may not have been a possibility.  Had V'ger been coming straight at them, they would have been found, powered down or not, when they crossed the cloud boundary.  

[CyberHank1701]

Quote:
Cyberhank, your point about being at warp during the Enterprise encounter is correct, V'Ger was at warp until they entered the Terran system, and being so big it is possible that the Amar just wasn't fast enough.  In the movie they went straight in, (we wouldnt have been able to see V'Ger's ship at all had they gone around), in the book however i dont know, i never did finish it. (and i doubt i could find it now)
 

Lieutenant_Q,

No disrespect intended, but if you view that sequence again you will notice that after the Enterprise penetrates V'Ger's cloud boundary  Kirk orders Sulu to fly over V'Ger's ship (from behind) when they reach the front of V'Ger's ship  that is when the Enterprise is tractor beamed inside it.  The Enterprise was heading straight for V'Ger from Earth, while still  way outside of V'Ger's cloud boundary, that is when Lt. Ilia plotted the parabolic coarse to swing around V'Ger and follow it from behind in the novel.  The film did not show the Enterprise swing around V'Ger, but it is implied based on the fly over.

Live Long and Prosper,
CyberHank1701
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[Lieutenant_Q]

No disrepect intended here either, but Star Trek the Magazine has a model of the entire V'ger ship, which direction was what and how big the model actually was (nearly 30 feet long I believe) stated that it was from the front.  Kirk orders a Conic Section flight path to the center of the cloud, bringing them parallel with whatever they find in there.  The parabolic course I believe you are referring to was Saavik at the start of Star Trek II during her Kobayashi Maru test, she orders a parabolic course to avoid entering the neutral zone.

Also considering that they were pressed for time and didnt know what they were going to find inside, a parabolic course to enter from the rear doesn't make sense in that you gain no real advantage, and you wasted a lot of time getting around something that is 82 AU in diameter.  

[SSCF_LeRoy]

My theory it that the Enterprise would have been along for the ride within V'ger's warp field (which would have undoubtedly been HUGE) upon getting close enough. It could then meneuver around within V'ger's warp field on impulse power at sublight speed relative to V'ger.      

[Marauth]

Quote:
No disrepect intended here either, but Star Trek the Magazine has a model of the entire V'ger ship, which direction was what and how big the model actually was (nearly 30 feet long I believe) stated that it was from the front.  Kirk orders a Conic Section flight path to the center of the cloud, bringing them parallel with whatever they find in there.  The parabolic course I believe you are referring to was Saavik at the start of Star Trek II during her Kobayashi Maru test, she orders a parabolic course to avoid entering the neutral zone.

Also considering that they were pressed for time and didnt know what they were going to find inside, a parabolic course to enter from the rear doesn't make sense in that you gain no real advantage, and you wasted a lot of time getting around something that is 82 AU in diameter.  

Just to nitpick - it's only 2AUs in diameter, 82AUs wouldn't fit inside the solar system let alone float over the earth before dissipating. That's why they altered the dialogue in the Director's Edition.

[CyberHank1701]

Quote:
No disrepect intended here either, but Star Trek the Magazine has a model of the entire V'ger ship, which direction was what and how big the model actually was (nearly 30 feet long I believe) stated that it was from the front.  Kirk orders a Conic Section flight path to the center of the cloud, bringing them parallel with whatever they find in there.  The parabolic course I believe you are referring to was Saavik at the start of Star Trek II during her Kobayashi Maru test, she orders a parabolic course to avoid entering the neutral zone.

Also considering that they were pressed for time and didnt know what they were going to find inside, a parabolic course to enter from the rear doesn't make sense in that you gain no real advantage, and you wasted a lot of time getting around something that is 82 AU in diameter.  

Lieutenant_Q,

I have not seen the "Star Trek the Magazine" article with the V'Ger ship model that you are referring to.  So are you saying that the maw that opens up and tractor beams the Enterprise inside the V'Ger ship is located at the V'Ger ship's rear in this magazine instead of the front of the V'Ger ship?  The Director's Edition has the maw of V'Ger's ship  pointing toward Earth as it is approaching Earth.  I am aware that the Conic Section is comprised of a point, parabola, hyperbola, ellipse and circle (all circles are ellipses with both foci at the center).  Perhaps that line about the Conic Section flight path is the parabolic course plotted.

CyberHank1701
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[CyberHank1701]

Quote:

Quote:
No disrepect intended here either, but Star Trek the Magazine has a model of the entire V'ger ship, which direction was what and how big the model actually was (nearly 30 feet long I believe) stated that it was from the front.  Kirk orders a Conic Section flight path to the center of the cloud, bringing them parallel with whatever they find in there.  The parabolic course I believe you are referring to was Saavik at the start of Star Trek II during her Kobayashi Maru test, she orders a parabolic course to avoid entering the neutral zone.

Also considering that they were pressed for time and didnt know what they were going to find inside, a parabolic course to enter from the rear doesn't make sense in that you gain no real advantage, and you wasted a lot of time getting around something that is 82 AU in diameter.  

Just to nitpick - it's only 2AUs in diameter, 82AUs wouldn't fit inside the solar system let alone float over the earth before dissipating. That's why they altered the dialogue in the Director's Edition.  

The Vampire Lestat,

I believe that V'Ger's spherical cloud was originally over 82 Astronomical Units in diameter that Commander Branch was referring to, not the V'Ger ship inside this cloud.  That's why the cloud dissipates before entering our Solar System.  I think Robert Wise made a comment on the Director's Edition DVD that he changed V'Ger's cloud diameter from over 82 AUs to over 2 AUs because it did not take the Enterprise very long to get from V'Ger's cloud boundary to its center.  If the V'Ger ship inside the cloud were over 2 AUs in diameter it would be too big to orbit Earth.  2 Astronomical Units is 2 times the distance from the Sun to the Earth.  The Earth's orbit is elliptical and fluxes between 90 million miles and 93 million miles.  So if V'Ger's ship were over 2 AUs in diameter it would be more than 180 million miles wide.

CyberHank1701
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[Marauth]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
No disrepect intended here either, but Star Trek the Magazine has a model of the entire V'ger ship, which direction was what and how big the model actually was (nearly 30 feet long I believe) stated that it was from the front.  Kirk orders a Conic Section flight path to the center of the cloud, bringing them parallel with whatever they find in there.  The parabolic course I believe you are referring to was Saavik at the start of Star Trek II during her Kobayashi Maru test, she orders a parabolic course to avoid entering the neutral zone.

Also considering that they were pressed for time and didnt know what they were going to find inside, a parabolic course to enter from the rear doesn't make sense in that you gain no real advantage, and you wasted a lot of time getting around something that is 82 AU in diameter.  

Just to nitpick - it's only 2AUs in diameter, 82AUs wouldn't fit inside the solar system let alone float over the earth before dissipating. That's why they altered the dialogue in the Director's Edition.  

The Vampire Lestat,

I believe that V'Ger's spherical cloud was originally over 82 Astronomical Units in diameter that Commander Branch was referring to, not the V'Ger ship inside this cloud.  That's why the cloud dissipates before entering our Solar System.  I think Robert Wise made a comment on the Director's Edition DVD that he changed V'Ger's cloud diameter from over 82 AUs to over 2 AUs because it did not take the Enterprise very long to get from V'Ger's cloud boundary to its center.  If the V'Ger ship inside the cloud were over 2 AUs in diameter it would be too big to orbit Earth.  2 Astronomical Units is 2 times the distance from the Sun to the Earth.  The Earth's orbit is elliptical and fluxes between 90 million miles and 93 million miles.  So if V'Ger's ship were over 2 AUs in diameter it would be more than 180 million miles wide.

CyberHank1701
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CyberHank1701

Actually I was referring to the cloud - the guy on the Epsilon 9 station says the cloud diameter is 82AUs in diameter in the original. The ship itself was never seen in full in the original. They changed it because the cloud doesn't dissipate untill they're in the solar system - 82AUs wouldn't fit in the solar system so they changed it to 2AUs. I am well aware of what an AU is and I never said the V'Ger ship was 2AUs - that'd just be silly! It's more like a few kilometres.

[CyberHank1701]

The Vampire Lestat,

My mistake, you wrote "it" so I thought "it" was referring to the V'Ger ship that Lt. Q and I were discussing.

Sorry about that cheif,

CyberHank1701
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[CyberHank1701]

Lt. Q and everyone else,

For what it is worth, I reviewed my copy of the extended version of ST:TMP with the scene in question, which follows at 1 hour into the film:


INTERIOR BRIDGE SET OF THE ENTERPRISE:

Navigator Lt. Ilia:  5 minutes to cloud boundary.

Capt. Kirk:  Navigator lay in a conic section flight path to the cloud center, bring us parallel to whatever we find in there.  Mr. Sulu, tactical plot on viewer.

Helmsman Lt. Cmd. Sulu:  Tactical on viewer sir.

Then when Commander Decker says "That measures 12th power!" (referring to the energy field cloud), you will notice on Mr. Spock's science station upper right circular monitor is a black and white display of a 2 dimensional graphic of the x-axis, the y-axis and a parabola with its directrix (parabola and directrix are rotated about 45 degrees from the y-axis) depicting the parabolic course laid in by Lt. Ilia.  The novel was more specific and stated that Lt. Ilia plotted a parabolic course to swing around the Intruder Cloud and follow it from behind.

The above scene was deleted from the Director's Edition.


Later on when the Enterprise has penetrated the cloud and reached the center of the cloud the scene that follows is:

INTERIOR BRIDGE SET OF THE ENTERPRISE:

Kirk:  Reduce magnification 4 Mr. Sulu.

Sulu:  We're already 2 settings below that sir.

Kirk:  Mr. Sulu, Bring us into a parallel course over the Alien at 500 meters.

Sulu:  500 meters?

Kirk:  (nodding yes) Then take us out 100 kilometers distance adjusting parallel course.

Sulu:  Aye sir.

Then we see an exterior shot of the Enterprise approaching the rear of V'Ger's ship which has a pattern lit up circle inside a 6 pointed star.  Additionally, on the commentary track of the Director's Edition of the DVD of this scene the Special Photographic Effects Supervisor John Dykstra says that while  they were filming this scene where the Enterprise reaches the center of the cloud and is approaching the rear of the V'Ger ship the rest of the V'Ger ship model was being built.  Later in the Director's Edition during the first 15 seconds of chapter 27 we see the Sun in the upper left of the screen and the Earth in the lower right of the screen with the V'Ger ship approaching Earth with that same circle inside of the star pattern on the V'Ger ship's rear.

Thanks Lt. Q and everyone else for responding to my post.  I enjoyed discussing my favorite Star Trek game and film with you.

CyberHank1701
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