Topic: Why don't the larger Klingon ships cloak?

[CyberHank1701]

Hello,

     I have SFC1 and I was wondering why the larger Klingon Ships (Battlecruisers,  Dreadnoughts and Battleships) don't have a cloaking device.  All of their Romulan converted counterparts do.  I believe the K-D5Y is the last of Klingon line of cloaked ships in SFC1.  The K'Tinga (K-D7 variant) had a cloaking device in the 7th season Voyager episode "Prophecy".  Also,  in Star Trek 2 The Wrath of Khan, during the Kobayashi Maru simulator test, it is implied that 3 Klingon K'Tingas decloaked once the Enterprise crossed the Klingon Neutral Zone.  Additionally in the 3rd season TOS episode "The Enterprise Incident" 3 Klingon D7 (Klolode) decloak and surround the Enterprise, which has crossed the Romulan Neutral Zone.  The Romulans own and operate these 3 ships and have added their cloaking device to the Klingon D7s.  So why doesn't SFC1 have a Klingon K-D6Y, K-D7Y, K-C8Y, K-C9Y, K-B10Y and KB11Y that can cloak?  I do have the EagleEye Ship Edit program and I am able to give these Klingon ship types (K-D6, K-D7, K-C8, etc...) the ability to cloak, but I was wondering why a separate "Y" class (for example K-D6Y) does not exist to represent the cloaking ability for these larger Klingon ships.

CyberHank1701
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[Klingon Fanatic]

It is my understanding that in SFB, which SFC is based on,  the bulk of Klingon ships do not cloak. We wouldn't want to be clones of the Romulans, now would we? Technology exchange treaty or allied status not withstanding...

Pretty much the same thing can be said of FASA Trek Klingons. However, in Trek games, the Klingon Academy Klingon Warships use the cloaking device more. The Largest Klingon Vessel in TMP times to have a Cloaking device is the Accuser DN at 600m.

http://www.3dactionplanet.com/klingonacademy/archive/kanews/klingon/index.html

I always wondered why a FASA Klingon D-10 wasn't kitted out with a cloaking device, LOL...

http://www.sub-odeon.com/stsstcsmua/

The beauty of the SFC series is, if you want cloaking, torpedo firing Klingons, you can tweak the shiplist to your heart's content.

Qapla!

KF

[Lieutenant_Q]

Largely because SFB was written for the time just following the events of TOS, which would mean, while yes, the Klingons have access to the cloaking device, they have yet to install it on all of their vessels, as they do not see the advantages to do so.  They believe hiding from the enemy to be cowardly and would prefer to fight.  Gradually the idea of using the Cloak to surprise your enemy is realized as an effective battle tactic that comes with no loss of honor, and it does, by the 24th century see widespread use throughout the fleet.  

[CyberHank1701]

Thank you gentlemen.  Lieutenant_Q (or anyone else) based on your response does this mean that if the I.K.V. Amar K'Tinga had a cloaking device that its captain would choose not use it to survive V'Ger's attack in "Star Trek:  The Motion Picture"?  This captain would rather die (become digitized) than cloak and evade a weapon of mass destruction (possibly Federation in origin as it was headed directly for a Federation planet, Sol 3 (Earth))?  Would the Klingon Council punish this captain and his crew for such a "cowardice" act (cloaking to survive) or reward him for providing vital information about this weapon of mass destruction (V'Ger)?

CyberHank1701
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[jimmi7769]

Also, think about how the Klingon ships and weapons are set up in SFB;  they hit fast over and over again.  The cloak makes you want to play hide and seek.  With SFB style Disruptors this just isn't really workable.  By the time you get cloaked your weapons are ready for another shot.  Not as useful as with 3 turn arming plasmas.

[Klingon Fanatic]

Quote:
Thank you gentlemen.  Lieutenant_Q based on your response (or anyone else) does this mean that if the I.K.V. Amar K'Tinga had a cloaking device that its captain would choose not use it to survive V'Ger's attack in Star Trek 1 The Motion Picture?  This captain would rather die (become digitized) than cloak and evade a weapon of mass destruction, possibly Federation in origin as it was headed directly for a Federation planet, Sol 3 (Earth)?  Would the Klingon Council punish this captain and his crew for such a "cowardice" act (cloaking to survive) or reward him for providing vital information about this weapon of mass destruction (V'Ger)?

CyberHank1701
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I do not have a copy of the ST:TMP script handy so I may be off base here.  Trek writers really don't apply continuity very well.

My guess is that the IKV Amar and her sister ships were either brand new ships, unfortunately hurled into battle before all their systems were fully operational (a la ST: Generations Enterprise B w/ missing equipment) or they weren't equipped with a cloaking device at all. ST: VI Qo' Nos One was a state-of-the-art "hero ship" so it may have got all the bells and whistles YEARS after the V' Ger incident. I'd say from ST: VI on that every K' T' inga thereafter was equipped with a cloaking device.

Tactics and attitudes about how to use new tools of war change with advances in technology. I doubt the Klingons would have changed their "Win at any cost" philosophy because they used a Romulan weapon of war to sneak up on or to evade an enemy.  I'm not a fan of ENT so lets not go there with the Klingon warship inconsistencies... I really believe Kruge stole a proto-type ROMULAN BOP in ST: III too....

If the ST:TMP writers had allowed  the IKV Amar to cloak, I bet V' Ger would have tracked them anyway, but the special effects weren't up to the task of showing that kind of scene in 1979-1980. Although  I would say the Klingon-Romulan technology exchange is at its peak from ST: II-VI, IMHO, I think the studio execs decided to punish the IKV Amar and her sister ships because they were to cheap to spend the money on the SFX shots it would take to make it impressionable on the BIG screen. We don't see a cloaked Klingon ship on the BIG screen unitl ST: III because although the TOS cloaking effects were adequate they IMHO weren't on par with what audiences expected when compared to other sci-fi genres such as Lucas' Star Wars trilogy also competing for box office dollars in the early 1980s.

TNG makes cloaking Klingons cool. However, as the SFC series is based on SFB, Klingons in general do not cloak because its dishonorable but because cloaking technology is not widely available to them in the TOS/SFB setting. Again if the Klingon navy has all of its ships cloak capable, why have snaky, backstabbing, plasma shooting  Romulans at all?

Just my humble opinion.

Qapla!

KF
 

[Rod O'neal]

SFC is based on SFB. SFB is based on TOS. TOS Klingons didn't have cloaks. The "Y" ships (and the Miranda) were added by Taldren from the movies, along with photons on Klingon ships, (to my knowledge) and aren't from SFB, as the rest of the ships are. In SFB you can add/purchase a cloak for any ship. It comes at a 20% bpv surcharge, IIRC. Arming/charging cost is 2/3 of your total warp engine power (or 2/3 of your total impulse power if you turn your warp engines off). As was stated, the cloak is most usefull though with longer arming cycle weapons. Most races don't realise a benefit that's equivalent to the cost.  

[Jaeih t`Radaik]

Hi KF,

I never thought of it that way before, but your assertion that the Klingon cloaking device is not in widespread use until the Mid/Late-2280's make a lot of sense. It also fits beautifully into my SFB-to-Starfleet/Klingon Academy timeline.

I think that the B'rel and K't'inga classes are new construction for the 2270's (TMP movie era), and so are fitted with the cloaking device as standard, since the technology exchange with the Roms in the Mid-2260's. However, most Klingon captains are till distrustful of it and don't use it even when they can - especially if they have a powerful vessel like a battlecruiser. The Starfleet Academy (2288) booklet said that not all the Klingon D7's had been retrofitted with the cloaking device yet (D-7 and D-7A models in the game), and by Klingon Academy (2290) all new construction ships were fitted with it and most older ones would have it too.

The TOS Klingon mind-set wouldn't allow them to use the cloaking device until it had proven itself over the years, and the 20 years in between would show them the value of it,

Just my take, but I'm basically agreeing with you.

I am, as ever,  

[Lieutenant_Q]

CyberHank, theres a minute and a half of the battle that we know almost nothing about, cept that they lost one ship, and the Amar got hit.  What if they did cloak during that time, only to find that their cloak didnt work against V'Ger, who deftly plucked one of them out while they were cloaked and digitized them.  Engaging the cloak probably would not have helped the Amar.  Retreating from the battle, despite that the opponent was the size of a Solar System, had prolly left a bad taste in his mouth.  My question though, is why didn't they just go to warp?

On another note, the D7T does not have a cloak in SFCII, but too many times ive seen that ship up against a Light Cruiser in a Random battle.  The D7T has almost the same firepower as a Federation Command Cruiser, yet its BPV places it in the Light Cruiser range.  Adding a Cloak, for another 20% of its BPV might just push it into the Heavy Cruiser range, where it will still be able to compete, since after all, it is a Heavy Cruiser.  

[jimmi7769]

Quote:
CyberHank, theres a minute and a half of the battle that we know almost nothing about, cept that they lost one ship, and the Amar got hit.  What if they did cloak during that time, only to find that their cloak didnt work against V'Ger, who deftly plucked one of them out while they were cloaked and digitized them.  Engaging the cloak probably would not have helped the Amar.  Retreating from the battle, despite that the opponent was the size of a Solar System, had prolly left a bad taste in his mouth.  My question though, is why didn't they just go to warp?

On another note, the D7T does not have a cloak in SFCII, but too many times ive seen that ship up against a Light Cruiser in a Random battle.  The D7T has almost the same firepower as a Federation Command Cruiser, yet its BPV places it in the Light Cruiser range.  Adding a Cloak, for another 20% of its BPV might just push it into the Heavy Cruiser range, where it will still be able to compete, since after all, it is a Heavy Cruiser.  

Depends on what kind of light cruiser you're referring to. a Fed CLC is quite up to the task of taking on a D7T.  I played a D7T in Empires for quite a long time and never once did I pull anything lower than a Fed CAR in a one on one.  It's about the most expensive ship the Klingons have during the timespan it's out for, which is another story alltogether.

[nx_adam_1701]

Question???

According to what you said that SFB has fast firing disruptors, shouldn't SFC have it as well, you guys mention that SFC = SFB so why isnt the disrutpors like Bridgecommander

adam out

[DH123]

Quote:


On another note, the D7T does not have a cloak in SFCII, but too many times ive seen that ship up against a Light Cruiser in a Random battle.  The D7T has almost the same firepower as a Federation Command Cruiser, yet its BPV places it in the Light Cruiser range.  Adding a Cloak, for another 20% of its BPV might just push it into the Heavy Cruiser range, where it will still be able to compete, since after all, it is a Heavy Cruiser.  

F-CC+ OWNS a K-D7T.  Not even a fair contest.  
 

[DH123]

Quote:
Question???

According to what you said that SFB has fast firing disruptors, shouldn't SFC have it as well, you guys mention that SFC = SFB so why isnt the disrutpors like Bridgecommander

adam out  

The rate of fire in SFC is exactly the same as it is in SFB.   Disrupters fire twice as fast as Photons.  

[nx_adam_1701]

ohhhhh, I get it, ok, then its the photons that are slow like hell lol lol

Has anyone ever wondered that the some weapons are to fast, I like to see the photons hit and the disruptors hit the shields, makes the game more fun, and that hellbore, way to fast, i wish there was a way to slow it down just a notch


and dont tell me to make the game go slower with the speed slider, thats lame lol


adam out

[CyberHank1701]

Quote:

... Retreating from the battle, despite that the opponent was the size of a Solar System, had prolly left a bad taste in his mouth.  My question though, is why didn't they just go to warp?...

Lieutenant_Q,

It been about 25 years since I read the novelzation of "Star Trek:  The Motion Picture", but I do remember reading that the Enterprise did intercept V'Ger while both were at warp and that the Navigator Lt. Ilia plotted a parabolic course to swing around V'Ger to follow it from behind.  (I was in 11th grade at the time studying Trigonometry and Analytical Geometry and glad to see it (the math references) in the film and novel).  So it stands to reason that both V'Ger and the 3 K'Tingas were at warp when they were fighting each other.  If anyone still has the novel, would you check on this please.  Therefore, I don't think the Amar could outrun V'Ger as both were at warp to begin with.

Quote:
CyberHank, theres a minute and a half of the battle that we know almost nothing about, cept that they lost one ship, and the Amar got hit.  What if they did cloak during that time, only to find that their cloak didnt work against V'Ger, who deftly plucked one of them out while they were cloaked and digitized them.  Engaging the cloak probably would not have helped the Amar...  

Perhaps the Amar should have cloaked, dropped out of warp, shutdown the impulse engines to avoid leaving a plasma gas trail for V'Ger to track their course and then using its inertia to coast, fire the Amar's maneuvering thrusters to alter it course (so V'Ger could not track it).


CyberHank1701
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[Lieutenant_Q]

Cyberhank, your point about being at warp during the Enterprise encounter is correct, V'Ger was at warp until they entered the Terran system, and being so big it is possible that the Amar just wasn't fast enough.  In the movie they went straight in, (we wouldnt have been able to see V'Ger's ship at all had they gone around), in the book however i dont know, i never did finish it. (and i doubt i could find it now)

Perhaps they should have cloaked and killed the power, but since we dont know how the battle was oriented, (we dont know if V'ger was facing the Klingons or not) it may not have been a possibility.  Had V'ger been coming straight at them, they would have been found, powered down or not, when they crossed the cloud boundary.  

[CyberHank1701]

Quote:
Cyberhank, your point about being at warp during the Enterprise encounter is correct, V'Ger was at warp until they entered the Terran system, and being so big it is possible that the Amar just wasn't fast enough.  In the movie they went straight in, (we wouldnt have been able to see V'Ger's ship at all had they gone around), in the book however i dont know, i never did finish it. (and i doubt i could find it now)
 

Lieutenant_Q,

No disrespect intended, but if you view that sequence again you will notice that after the Enterprise penetrates V'Ger's cloud boundary  Kirk orders Sulu to fly over V'Ger's ship (from behind) when they reach the front of V'Ger's ship  that is when the Enterprise is tractor beamed inside it.  The Enterprise was heading straight for V'Ger from Earth, while still  way outside of V'Ger's cloud boundary, that is when Lt. Ilia plotted the parabolic coarse to swing around V'Ger and follow it from behind in the novel.  The film did not show the Enterprise swing around V'Ger, but it is implied based on the fly over.

Live Long and Prosper,
CyberHank1701
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[Lieutenant_Q]

No disrepect intended here either, but Star Trek the Magazine has a model of the entire V'ger ship, which direction was what and how big the model actually was (nearly 30 feet long I believe) stated that it was from the front.  Kirk orders a Conic Section flight path to the center of the cloud, bringing them parallel with whatever they find in there.  The parabolic course I believe you are referring to was Saavik at the start of Star Trek II during her Kobayashi Maru test, she orders a parabolic course to avoid entering the neutral zone.

Also considering that they were pressed for time and didnt know what they were going to find inside, a parabolic course to enter from the rear doesn't make sense in that you gain no real advantage, and you wasted a lot of time getting around something that is 82 AU in diameter.  

[SSCF_LeRoy]

My theory it that the Enterprise would have been along for the ride within V'ger's warp field (which would have undoubtedly been HUGE) upon getting close enough. It could then meneuver around within V'ger's warp field on impulse power at sublight speed relative to V'ger.      

[Marauth]

Quote:
No disrepect intended here either, but Star Trek the Magazine has a model of the entire V'ger ship, which direction was what and how big the model actually was (nearly 30 feet long I believe) stated that it was from the front.  Kirk orders a Conic Section flight path to the center of the cloud, bringing them parallel with whatever they find in there.  The parabolic course I believe you are referring to was Saavik at the start of Star Trek II during her Kobayashi Maru test, she orders a parabolic course to avoid entering the neutral zone.

Also considering that they were pressed for time and didnt know what they were going to find inside, a parabolic course to enter from the rear doesn't make sense in that you gain no real advantage, and you wasted a lot of time getting around something that is 82 AU in diameter.  

Just to nitpick - it's only 2AUs in diameter, 82AUs wouldn't fit inside the solar system let alone float over the earth before dissipating. That's why they altered the dialogue in the Director's Edition.