Topic: Fly me to the Moon  (Read 9239 times)

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Sirgod

  • Guest
Re: Fly me to the Moon
« Reply #60 on: January 30, 2004, 09:38:31 am »
Quote:

Meanwhile back on Earth.....

Jobs are threatened in S. California and other aerospace centers as the cancellation of future shuttle and next generation reusable engine plans kicks in. News of cancellations or major engine programs have already reached employees, although nothing as of yet has been publicly announced.

The earliest one could expect any new program initiative to start would be next fiscal year, given the governments procurement procedure. This assumes the funding is actually authorized by Congress. Meanwhile, I'd not be surprised to see significant layoffs. Layoffs of the engineering experience that will be needed...

FYI: The only Apollo engine hardware that still exists is in Houston in a museum. To my knowledge, no tooling or even detailed drawings have survived. Most Apollo engineers have long since retired, along with their expertise...

FYI#2: The Bush Space Initiative calls for the CEV to be lifted by Delta 4 or Atlas heavy lift engines (ie Air Force engines). These are disposable engines built "on the cheap", and were never designed for manned flight. They have an occasional tendency to go BOOM.    





FYI#1 : you are correct my friend. US Senetor William Proxmire of Wisnonsin killed the Moon/Mars program, and Had all referance Documents to the Tech Of The Saturn Rocket destoyed.To Quote Gordon Cooper

"Why would any Forward-thinking nation actually destroy It's own leading Edge technology? Killing the saturn Program was not only a waste of Billions of dollars- Qualifying Proxmire for a liftem Golden Fleece Award - But a crime against Space exploration and the advancment of technology in General. I'm still angry about It , and will be untill my dying day.
"

There was actually tech back then For the Proposed Mars landing by man Circa 1980. I believe It was also destoyed around the time.

Stephen
 

edit a brief Bio on william Proxmire...

 http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/P/Proxmire.html

 
Quote:

 William Proxmire (Edward William Proxmire), 1915?, U.S. Senator (1957?89), b. Lake Forest, Ill. He worked in army counterintelligence during World War II and later entered politics, serving (1951?52) as a Democrat in the Wisconsin state assembly. After three unsuccessful attempts at the governorship, he was elected (1957) to the Senate to fill the vacancy created by the death of Joseph McCarthy. Considered a maverick by his Senate colleagues, Proxmire opposed wasteful government spending, especially by the military. He led (1970?71) the successful fight in Congress against financing the supersonic transport plane. He was chairman of the Senate Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs Committee (1975?81, 1987?89). Proxmire wrote Report from Wasteland (1970) and Uncle Sam : the Last of the Bigtime Spenders (1972).

 


« Last Edit: January 30, 2004, 09:41:13 am by Sirgod »

Toasty0

  • Guest
Re: Fly me to the Moon
« Reply #61 on: January 30, 2004, 10:03:39 am »
Quote:

Meanwhile back on Earth.....

Jobs are threatened in S. California and other aerospace centers as the cancellation of future shuttle and next generation reusable engine plans kicks in. News of cancellations or major engine programs have already reached employees, although nothing as of yet has been publicly announced.

The earliest one could expect any new program initiative to start would be next fiscal year, given the governments procurement procedure. This assumes the funding is actually authorized by Congress. Meanwhile, I'd not be surprised to see significant layoffs. Layoffs of the engineering experience that will be needed...

FYI: The only Apollo engine hardware that still exists is in Houston in a museum. To my knowledge, no tooling or even detailed drawings have survived. Most Apollo engineers have long since retired, along with their expertise...




I believe the booster you refer too were called Saturn V. Though very reliable I suppose there may be a good chance that new ideas and concepts will fill the need.


Quote:


FYI#2: The Bush Space Initiative calls for the CEV to be lifted by Delta 4 or Atlas heavy lift engines (ie Air Force engines). These are disposable engines built "on the cheap", and were never designed for manned flight. They have an occasional tendency to go BOOM.    




True and a great reason to develop other lift technologies. Just be sure to convince your Sen or Cong.

Best,
Jerry    

Sirgod

  • Guest
Re: Fly me to the Moon
« Reply #62 on: March 31, 2004, 07:55:15 pm »
making a small Bump, Was looking for some info from here for a Discussion elsewhere.

Stephen

Khalee

  • Guest
Re: Fly me to the Moon
« Reply #63 on: March 31, 2004, 08:03:29 pm »
So the moon is going to be earths garbage dump, weve allready poluted our own planet so sure lets polute another with our  trash.

Kmelew

  • Guest
Re: Fly me to the Moon
« Reply #64 on: March 31, 2004, 08:09:40 pm »
Quote:

There was actually tech back then For the Proposed Mars landing by man Circa 1980. I believe It was also destoyed around the time.

Stephen
 




You might find this book  interesting .

Looking back with 20/20 hindsight, it seems that the Apollo Applications, of which Skylab was a part, represented a greater return on investment than the Space Shuttle.
 

Sirgod

  • Guest
Re: Fly me to the Moon
« Reply #65 on: March 31, 2004, 08:13:17 pm »
Thanks for the Link Kmelew. I'm reading through It right now.

Stephen

edit, Yep, I'll have to get this book Pretty soon.

« Last Edit: March 31, 2004, 08:14:14 pm by Sirgod »

Delta One

  • Guest
Re: Fly me to the Moon
« Reply #66 on: April 01, 2004, 08:45:25 am »
You don't need Americans to be engineers for the american space program.

I'm sure I can get 1000 Indians to do it for the price of 10 Americans.

Heck and if I hire a Russian to pilot the spaceship I won't have to pay him as much either!  

Sirgod

  • Guest
Re: Fly me to the Moon
« Reply #67 on: April 01, 2004, 08:49:27 am »
Quote:

You don't need Americans to be engineers for the american space program.

I'm sure I can get 1000 Indians to do it for the price of 10 Americans.

Heck and if I hire a Russian to pilot the spaceship I won't have to pay him as much either!  




 

Stephen

Iceman

  • Guest
Re: Fly me to the Moon
« Reply #68 on: April 01, 2004, 01:39:00 pm »
Give me a starship, and I'll fly it to the edge of existence for you.  Free.  

*EZKILL*

  • Guest
Re: Fly me to the Moon
« Reply #69 on: April 01, 2004, 01:41:26 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Meanwhile back on Earth.....

Jobs are threatened in S. California and other aerospace centers as the cancellation of future shuttle and next generation reusable engine plans kicks in. News of cancellations or major engine programs have already reached employees, although nothing as of yet has been publicly announced.

The earliest one could expect any new program initiative to start would be next fiscal year, given the governments procurement procedure. This assumes the funding is actually authorized by Congress. Meanwhile, I'd not be surprised to see significant layoffs. Layoffs of the engineering experience that will be needed...

FYI: The only Apollo engine hardware that still exists is in Houston in a museum. To my knowledge, no tooling or even detailed drawings have survived. Most Apollo engineers have long since retired, along with their expertise...




I believe the booster you refer too were called Saturn V. Though very reliable I suppose there may be a good chance that new ideas and concepts will fill the need.


Quote:


FYI#2: The Bush Space Initiative calls for the CEV to be lifted by Delta 4 or Atlas heavy lift engines (ie Air Force engines). These are disposable engines built "on the cheap", and were never designed for manned flight. They have an occasional tendency to go BOOM.    




True and a great reason to develop other lift technologies. Just be sure to convince your Sen or Cong.

Best,
Jerry    




Didn't the Saturn V have a perfect performance record. Never having failed during use?

I think I remember reading that somewhere...

Sirgod

  • Guest
Re: Fly me to the Moon
« Reply #70 on: April 01, 2004, 01:46:37 pm »
I don't think So EZkill, Apollo 13 and apollo 11 I believe where using the S5.

Interestingly enough I just came across this.

 link

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:47:24 -0600
To: Kepi
From: Kepi
Subject: Apollo Astronaut Was Murdered, Son Charges
Source: NewMax.com
http://38.201.154.103/articles/?a=1999/2/11/00539

Apollo Astronaut Was Murdered, Son Charges

Christopher Ruddy
February 11, 1999

Virgil I. "Gus" Grissom, the astronaut slated to be the first man to walk on the moon, was murdered, his son has charged in the Feb. 16 edition of Star magazine.

In another stunning development, a lead NASA investigator has charged that the agency engaged in a cover-up of the true cause of the catastrophe that killed Grissom and two other astronauts.

The tabloid exclusive by Steve Herz reports that Scott Grissom, 48, has gone public with the family?s long-held belief that their father was purposefully killed during Apollo I.

The Jan. 27, 1967, Apollo I mission was a simulated launch in preparation for an actual lunar flight.

NASA concluded that the Apollo I deaths of Grissom, as well as astronauts Edward H. White and Roger Chafee, were the result of an explosive fire that burst from the pure oxygen atmosphere of the space capsule. NASA investigators could not identify what caused the spark, but wrote the catastrophe off as an accident.

"My father?s death was no accident. He was murdered," Grissom, a commercial pilot, told Star.

Grissom said he recently was granted access to the charred capsule and discovered a "fabricated" metal plate located behind a control panel switch. The switch controlled the capsules? electrical power source from an outside source to the ship?s batteries. Grissom argues that the placement of the metal plate was an act of sabotage. When one of the astronauts toggled the switch to transfer power to the ship?s batteries, a spark was created that ignited a fireball.

Clark Mac Donald, a McDonnell-Douglas engineer hired by NASA to investigate the fire, offered corroborating evidence. Breaking more than three decades of silence, Mac Donald says he determined that an electrical short caused by the changeover to battery power had sparked the fire.

He says that NASA destroyed his report and interview tapes in an effort to stem public criticism of the space program.

"I have agonized for 31 years about revealing the truth, but I didn?t want to hurt NASA?s image or cause trouble," Mac Donald told the paper. "But I can?t let one more day go by without the truth being known."

Grissom?s widow, Betty, now 71, told Star she agrees with her son?s claim that her husband had been murdered.

"I believe Scott has found the key piece of evidence to prove NASA knew all along what really happened but covered up to protect funding for the race to the moon."

Scott Grissom told Star that the motive for his father?s killing may have been related to NASA?s desire not have his father be the first man to walk on the moon because of criticism leveled at Grissom in 1961 after his Mercury capsule, Liberty 7, sunk in the Atlantic.

Critics of Grissom, including novelist Tom Wolfe, have claimed the astronaut panicked when his space capsule landed in the ocean, and he prematurely pulled an explosive charge to open the ship?s hatch, causing it to sink.

Fellow astronauts, however, gave Grissom the benefit of the doubt for several reasons. Grissom was a decorated Korean War pilot who had flown nearly 100 combat missions. He was a courageous man not known to panic.

There was also evidence that the explosive device on the hatch could accidentally blow without being pulled?a fact that led NASA to remove such devices from future spacecraft.

Also, had Grissom pulled the explosive release on the hatch, his hand or arm should have had powder and bruise marks. Neither were found.

Grissom, one of the original Mercury seven, was the senior astronaut when the Apollo missions began.

Among the astronauts, Grissom was the most critical of the problem-plagued Apollo program, and the main Apollo contractor, North American Aviation.

Shortly before his death, Grissom had taken a large lemon and hung it around the space capsule as the press looked on. He had suggested publicly that the project could never be accomplished on time.

The Associated Press reported, "?Pretty slim? was the way [Grissom] put his Apollo?s chances of meeting its mission requirements."

The Grissom family had reason to doubt the official NASA ruling from the beginning. Even before Apollo I, Grissom had received death threats which his family believed emanated from within the space program.

The threats were serious enough that he was put under Secret Service protection and had been moved from his home to a secure safehouse.

According to his wife, Grissom had warned her that "if there is ever a serious accident in the space program, it?s likely to be me."

The Apollo I disaster led to a series of congressional hearings into the incident and NASA. During the hearings, one launch pad inspector, Thomas Baron, sharply criticized NASA?s handling of the incident and testified that the astronauts attempted to escape the capsule earlier than officially claimed.

Baron was fired soon after giving the testimony, and died, along with his wife, when his car was struck by a train. Authorities ruled the deaths as suicide.

During the congressional hearings, Sen. Walter Mondale questioned the efficacy of manned space programs. Manned space flights were opposed by many of the leading space scientists at the time, including Drs. James Van Allen and Thomas Gold.

c 1998, NewsMax.com
---------------------------------------

I don't know what to think Having read this accusation, and I need to do some more research on It before I can form an opinion.

stephen

*EZKILL*

  • Guest
Re: Fly me to the Moon
« Reply #71 on: April 01, 2004, 02:50:04 pm »
But Apollo I was an accident in the capsule (oxygen saturation and a spark caused that one) and Apollo XIII had a tank blow up long after the Saturn V was jettisoned.

Sirgod

  • Guest
Re: Fly me to the Moon
« Reply #72 on: April 01, 2004, 03:00:23 pm »
That's very true. I hadn't had time to research It yet, But you are correct.

I would love to see the S 5 built using modern day materials. Where is stormBringer BTW, he would be great in this thread. He would Explain How Coconuts and Modern Psycholigy can Rebuild the S5 and make It Stronger, faster, Better then what we had.

Heck Sethan would quote Lee Major's work in the Advance in the Space race.  

Seriously, I hope that we can find at least one copy for the S5 plans. We could Practicly Launch the ISS into space easily.

Stephen

Iceman

  • Guest
Re: Fly me to the Moon
« Reply #73 on: April 03, 2004, 12:04:10 pm »
We could always tear apart the one in the Space Museum in Florida, its a lifesize model built but never used, suspended in stages above a tour site.  If I can find the pictures, I'll scan them.  

Death_Merchant

  • Guest
Re: Fly me to the Moon
« Reply #74 on: April 03, 2004, 12:26:20 pm »
The museum parts are non-functional. No functional Saturn V parts remain. No drawings of the design remain.
The men who originally designed and built it are dead or retired.  

Iceman

  • Guest
Re: Fly me to the Moon
« Reply #75 on: April 03, 2004, 02:24:16 pm »
Does non-functional mean not present, however?  Sadly I don't know for sure.  

Stormbringer

  • Guest
Re: Fly me to the Moon
« Reply #76 on: April 03, 2004, 02:59:58 pm »
Yes. Unfortunately, Recreatingthe Saturn would not be coste effective. The cost would dwarf it's old price and that using the old tech. Improving it would be even more. The Saturn is gone forever. The nearest thing is the Proton or the Arriane 5.

The losers who terminated the program and those who destroyed the engineering data should be shot if they were not already dead.  

Iceman

  • Guest
Re: Fly me to the Moon
« Reply #77 on: April 03, 2004, 06:02:52 pm »
I agree totally.  However some type of booster would probably needed to get to Mars or anywhere else with any speed.  Anyone know how long it'd take to get to the Moon with current tech?  I know is was 4 days, give or take during the Apollo missions.  

Stormbringer

  • Guest
Re: Fly me to the Moon
« Reply #78 on: April 03, 2004, 07:14:53 pm »
Quote:

Yes. Unfortunately, Recreatingthe Saturn would not be coste effective. The cost would dwarf it's old price and that using the old tech. Improving it would be even more. The Saturn is gone forever. The nearest thing is the Proton or the Arriane 5.

The losers who terminated the program and those who destroyed the engineering data should be shot if they were not already dead.  





Actually its not too late to dig them up and desecrate thier graves...

Sirgod

  • Guest
Re: Fly me to the Moon
« Reply #79 on: April 03, 2004, 11:20:45 pm »
Quote:

Quote:

Yes. Unfortunately, Recreatingthe Saturn would not be coste effective. The cost would dwarf it's old price and that using the old tech. Improving it would be even more. The Saturn is gone forever. The nearest thing is the Proton or the Arriane 5.

The losers who terminated the program and those who destroyed the engineering data should be shot if they were not already dead.  





Actually its not too late to dig them up and desecrate thier graves...  




you know, I would almost be for that. When I first discovered that the Saturn V plans was Destroyed, I would have done that.  

Stephen